Worst selections

[sainters85]

Minchington: people say he's stiff so thats ok
Dunell: not an AFL player but he's still in (tanking)
Gwilt: Seriously, Bruce should be in to replace him (tanking)
Fisher: club champion but has only played one game in the VFL, hopefully proves me wrong on Saturday

[SainterK]

I don't think we're tanking, we were no chance regardless of ins/outs

[8856brother]

I don't think we're tanking, we were no chance regardless of ins/outs

Agree. Surely you must first have some kind of chace of winning before you can be seriously accused of tanking.

[saintsRrising]

We are actually super-tanking and not just tanking....in that we are also not playing our best, as we no longer have all of our best at the club.

It is very obvious that our strategic plan is to tank in order to gain lower and better draft picks. Plus to ultimately have a war-chest to buy in players.

That is why Pelchen moved on, or did not stand in the way of BJ, Dal and Ben going.

Whether one agrees with it or nor. That is the plan.

If it works it will ultimately mean a stronger team down the track. But for this year and probably the next two, it is going to be a world of hurt.

So which club do you prefer to be? The Blues in limbo vs the Saints in more pain, but we hope in-time with better gain

[Cairnsman]

We are actually super-tanking and not just tanking....in that we are also not playing our best, as we no longer have all of our best at the club.

It is very obvious that our strategic plan is to tank in order to gain lower and better draft picks. Plus to ultimately have a war-chest to buy in players.

That is why Pelchen moved on, or did not stand in the way of BJ, Dal and Ben going.

Whether one agrees with it or nor. That is the plan.

If it works it will ultimately mean a stronger team down the track. But for this year and probably the next two, it is going to be a world of hurt.

So which club do you prefer to be? The Blues in limbo vs the Saints in more pain, but we hope in-time with better gain

The latter...personally speaking I don't want to be a 9th spot specialist. Tanking is the only way to go fir poor clybs.

[saintspremiers]

We are actually super-tanking and not just tanking....in that we are also not playing our best, as we no longer have all of our best at the club.

It is very obvious that our strategic plan is to tank in order to gain lower and better draft picks. Plus to ultimately have a war-chest to buy in players.

That is why Pelchen moved on, or did not stand in the way of BJ, Dal and Ben going.

Whether one agrees with it or nor. That is the plan.

If it works it will ultimately mean a stronger team down the track. But for this year and probably the next two, it is going to be a world of hurt.

So which club do you prefer to be? The Blues in limbo vs the Saints in more pain, but we hope in-time with better gain

That's BS.

Our best team won't win. End of story.

Playing Dunnell is stupid

[spert]

AR hasn't got a lot of options in selection. I think he is looking at various players and how they work in the team and how they carry out instructions. Minchington still hasn't got the tank at senior level yet, and Dunell probably has, but has never been given a chance to settle in, so at least give him a chance. I think Milera and TDL just didn't do the job asked of them and could struggle to get any more games. Probably a good time for fringe players to give it a real crack tomorrow for their future prospects.

[FQF]

We are actually super-tanking and not just tanking....in that we are also not playing our best, as we no longer have all of our best at the club.

It is very obvious that our strategic plan is to tank in order to gain lower and better draft picks. Plus to ultimately have a war-chest to buy in players.

That is why Pelchen moved on, or did not stand in the way of BJ, Dal and Ben going.

Whether one agrees with it or nor. That is the plan.

If it works it will ultimately mean a stronger team down the track. But for this year and probably the next two, it is going to be a world of hurt.

So which club do you prefer to be? The Blues in limbo vs the Saints in more pain, but we hope in-time with better gain

That's BS.

Our best team won't win. End of story.

Playing Dunnell is stupid

It pays to read before responding. SRR is saying that we are "super-tanking" by releasing our top end talent for faster regeneration. Would our team with the inclusions of BJ and Dal win (vs a North without Dal) - close to call, but they are huge additions (and omission).

[Dis Believer]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

With a list that was so lacking in decent young players being fed in at the bottom every year, and with the resultant massive hole in the middle of the age profile of our playing talent we were effectively forced into a scenario where we have to accelerate the normal rate of "regeneration" of our list. The only way to do that is to trade into extra picks.

There was BJ one year, Dal the next, McEvoy went the same year as Dal (I think the Ben scenario was an unexpected bonus where all the stars aligned), and I wouldn't be surprised if the plan all along was for another one this year, hence there has been whispers about both Joey and Armo.

They will have known that the gradual trading out of the few senior players we have with currency would hurt our on field performance in the short term, but the upside would be lower ladder position and higher draft picks and access to draft talent with a better chance of being 200 game players.

The best analogy I can come up with is a house that has not been maintained properly and is falling apart. You have to sell off some of your top end quality furniture to pay for the materials to rebuild the house. You do it because the furniture is useless without the house and you figure that whilst going down this path you will be able to save enough to replace the furniture by the time you finish rebuilding the damaged house.

As long as we were going to be crap anyway, they may as well take a look at certain players to be sure of their decision on those players futures, and maybe "cotton wool" some other young blokes like Bruce (key position young blokes who we don't want physically stressed to the point of long tem injuries). Nothing we do at this stage is likely to impact the on field results so we can do things that we wouldn't do if we were going after a finals spot. We may see White for a couple of games just so they can expose him to the pace and see how he copes. They may want to give Bruce some games to reward his form, but want to keep it to a minimum until after he gets another preseason in him.

[skeptic]

I also think it's a case of really wanting to have a look at those 50/50s

I think they've made calls on guys like TDL and Maister
I don't really u/s Minch, Milera and Bruce but I suspect they'll stay

Hence Dunnell gets a sustained'ish shot, and they see if Fisher can keep it together for a few games with the view of one of him or Gwilt going

[stinger]

AR hasn't got a lot of options in selection. I think he is looking at various players and how they work in the team and how they carry out instructions. Minchington still hasn't got the tank at senior level yet, and Dunell probably has, but has never been given a chance to settle in, so at least give him a chance. I think Milera and TDL just didn't do the job asked of them and could struggle to get any more games. Probably a good time for fringe players to give it a real crack tomorrow for their future prospects.

if a guy is on his last chance to show that he is more than just a good vfl player ,then giving him a full game is only fair.....didn't get much chance wearing the kermit jacket last week......so for you dunny...this week is it......

[saintsRrising]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

.

I disagree. I think it is very intentional, which is why I christened it Super -Tanking (you heard the term hear first).

Make no mistake, Pelchen was brought in to radically restructure our list in order to make our next tilt at a flag.

He was not brought in just to tweak it, he was not brought in to go steady as you go. He was brought in to effectively start witha clean slate.

Or as much of a clean slate as you can have when you have to work with AFL rules to builda new team.

No GC, or GWS raft of picks for us. No salary cap advantage like Sydney.

No without that he has instead opted to use multi-trades and to be ruthless with some senior players to get more new young players. And yes also make no mistake that for us to finish very low for several years is all part of that plan to assemble not just young talent, but a core of very good young talent.

We are Super-tanking.

[plugger66]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

.

I disagree. I think it is very intentional, which is why I christened it Super -Tanking (you heard the term hear first).

Make no mistake, Pelchen was brought in to radically restructure our list in order to make our next tilt at a flag.

He was not brought in just to tweak it, he was not brought in to go steady as you go. He was brought in to effectively start witha clean slate.

Or as much of a clean slate as you can have when you have to work with AFL rules to builda new team.

No GC, or GWS raft of picks for us. No salary cap advantage like Sydney.

No without that he has instead opted to use multi-trades and to be ruthless with some senior players to get more new young players. And yes also make no mistake that for us to finish very low for several years is all part of that plan to assemble not just young talent, but a core of very good young talent.

We are Super-tanking.

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

[jonesy]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

.

I disagree. I think it is very intentional, which is why I christened it Super -Tanking (you heard the term hear first).

Make no mistake, Pelchen was brought in to radically restructure our list in order to make our next tilt at a flag.

He was not brought in just to tweak it, he was not brought in to go steady as you go. He was brought in to effectively start witha clean slate.

Or as much of a clean slate as you can have when you have to work with AFL rules to builda new team.

No GC, or GWS raft of picks for us. No salary cap advantage like Sydney.

No without that he has instead opted to use multi-trades and to be ruthless with some senior players to get more new young players. And yes also make no mistake that for us to finish very low for several years is all part of that plan to assemble not just young talent, but a core of very good young talent.

We are Super-tanking.

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

Simple,list management tanking

[plugger66]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

.

I disagree. I think it is very intentional, which is why I christened it Super -Tanking (you heard the term hear first).

Make no mistake, Pelchen was brought in to radically restructure our list in order to make our next tilt at a flag.

He was not brought in just to tweak it, he was not brought in to go steady as you go. He was brought in to effectively start witha clean slate.

Or as much of a clean slate as you can have when you have to work with AFL rules to builda new team.

No GC, or GWS raft of picks for us. No salary cap advantage like Sydney.

No without that he has instead opted to use multi-trades and to be ruthless with some senior players to get more new young players. And yes also make no mistake that for us to finish very low for several years is all part of that plan to assemble not just young talent, but a core of very good young talent.

We are Super-tanking.

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

Simple,list management tanking

Still dont get it. The players who have played couldnt win so we try others.

[8856brother]

I don't know that it is intentional tanking as such, but a consequence (and a handy one at that) of our situation.

.

I disagree. I think it is very intentional, which is why I christened it Super -Tanking (you heard the term hear first).

Make no mistake, Pelchen was brought in to radically restructure our list in order to make our next tilt at a flag.

He was not brought in just to tweak it, he was not brought in to go steady as you go. He was brought in to effectively start witha clean slate.

Or as much of a clean slate as you can have when you have to work with AFL rules to builda new team.

No GC, or GWS raft of picks for us. No salary cap advantage like Sydney.


No without that he has instead opted to use multi-trades and to be ruthless with some senior players to get more new young players. And yes also make no mistake that for us to finish very low for several years is all part of that plan to assemble not just young talent, but a core of very good young talent.

We are Super-tanking.

He must also be commended on the way he has manufactured our epic injury list. The plan is coming together. He's a evil genius mastermind.

[jonesy]

We are Super-tanking.

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

Simple,list management tanking

Still dont get it. The players who have played couldnt win so we try others.[/quote]

It started 18 months ago, and went into overdrive 10 months ago. You honestly think we'd still be on the bottom with BJ and Dal in the side? If we were trying to win as many games as possible you could make a strong case for Milne and Blake getting another year also

[plugger66]

We are Super-tanking.

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

Simple,list management tanking

Still dont get it. The players who have played couldnt win so we try others.

It started 18 months ago, and went into overdrive 10 months ago. You honestly think we'd still be on the bottom with BJ and Dal in the side? If we were trying to win as many games as possible you could make a strong case for Milne and Blake getting another year also[/quote]


No I get the bit about trading but I dont get anything that has happened this season to suggest we have tanked at all. We are terrible whoever plays for us.

[Bluthy]

I think we've tried over 40 players this year because they have to work out who is the future of St Kilda and who isn't. And its a reiterative process. Put them in, see how they play, did they do the things you told them to do, see how the respond to the feedback and non-negotiable, rinse and repeat. The other big issue for Richo is keeping his authority. If he tells a player to do something and they don't do it (tackles, running hard on the spread) then he needs to show there consequences for their actions ie. being dropped. Bruce might fit into that category. That's where Gwilt, Ray, Jones etc come in. Mark Neal lost his authority because he had no one he could bring in and his words didn't mean s***. Richo has inherited this list and is obviously spending this year getting to know which players respond and have an upside and which ones don't by rotating who's in the firsts.

[saintsRrising]

How can you tank if you cant win anyway? Surely tanking means throwing games or at least not trying to win. Well we can win what ever side is on the park.

Because we could have hung on the BJ, Dal and Ben and won more games. We would not be playing finals, but not getting the best picks either.

But instead we are tanking not just a game, or even for a season, but for seasons. We deliberately let stars go, knowing that it would hasten our decline.

Instead of trying to stay as competitive as possible in the immediate term, we are instead looking to finish in the last few for several season in order to gain the cream that you need to be a top team. Or at least that is the plan. Whether it will be made to work or not is going to depend on many things, key of which is to really nail our picks.

We gain say picks 1, 20, 38, 46 instead of say 8, 27, 45 and 53

Letting go BJ, Dal ( with Delaney effectively part of letting go) and trading Ben also quickened the arrival of more new young talent.

It is also why the club is not chasing any star Free Agents at present. Money wise we can afford them, but the club wants something much more precious that $$$ and that is early draft picks. The plan is to Super-Tank for several seasons, and then to top up wit Free Agents when the time is deemed ripe to rise. FA's will also be more willing to come to us then, when they can see a better immediate future.

It is one reason there is no angst with the Club and Richo as present as the plan is to finish low.

It is also probably a big reason too that many of our senior players have just been going through the motions. It would be hard to give your all, when you know that effectively 2 to 3 seasons are just being written off as list building exercises.


However while one can understand the logic of Super-Tanking, will the Saints be able to survive the pain and lack of income that it is going to cause? While our shocking injury run has only deepened our lack of of talent, and experienced talent we are going to experienced a grim few years. We desperately need to gain some more young stars that fans can build hopes and dreams around. Get some duds, and it could all unwind into a most dire situation.

Trying to build a new following in NZ at such a time is going to be very, very hard.

[dragit]

Instead of trying to stay as competitive as possible in the immediate term, we are instead looking to finish in the last few for several season in order to gain the cream that you need to be a top team.

Good post sRr, I think this is the reason that we will be very hard pressed to expect a priority pick any time soon.

Deliberately shedding All Australian stars and a decent ruckmen approaching his prime has really decimated our ability to compete… it's hard to cry poor when we have largely made these trade/FA moves on purpose.

The injuries we have suffered this year have meant that we have gone from a poor side to an uncompetitive side, but I don't think we can expect much sympathy really.

[Bluthy]

Instead of trying to stay as competitive as possible in the immediate term, we are instead looking to finish in the last few for several season in order to gain the cream that you need to be a top team.

Good post sRr, I think this is the reason that we will be very hard pressed to expect a priority pick any time soon.

Deliberately shedding All Australian stars and a decent ruckmen approaching his prime has really decimated our ability to compete… it's hard to cry poor when we have largely made these trade/FA moves on purpose.

The injuries we have suffered this year have meant that we have gone from a poor side to an uncompetitive side, but I don't think we can expect much sympathy really.

So how long into next year when we are being thrashed yet again do the media start seriously throwing the "tank" word around and what does that do to the morale of the club? What if a leak comes out like at Melbourne about the inner sanctum not really wanting to win? That almost destroyed Melbourne. If we trade our star players because we don't care much about winning now isn't that basically tanking? Its the systems fault. Lets put the goddamn system on trial!

[dragit]

Instead of trying to stay as competitive as possible in the immediate term, we are instead looking to finish in the last few for several season in order to gain the cream that you need to be a top team.

Good post sRr, I think this is the reason that we will be very hard pressed to expect a priority pick any time soon.

Deliberately shedding All Australian stars and a decent ruckmen approaching his prime has really decimated our ability to compete… it's hard to cry poor when we have largely made these trade/FA moves on purpose.

The injuries we have suffered this year have meant that we have gone from a poor side to an uncompetitive side, but I don't think we can expect much sympathy really.

So how long into next year when we are being thrashed yet again do the media start seriously throwing the "tank" word around and what does that do to the morale of the club? What if a leak comes out like at Melbourne about the inner sanctum not really wanting to win? That almost destroyed Melbourne. If we trade our star players because we don't care much about winning now isn't that basically tanking? Its the systems fault. Lets put the goddamn system on trial!

It wouldn't be hard to argue that with our list profile in 2012, the only hope we had of challenging again in the next ten years was to sacrifice some older talent and recycle it into young talent.

If we'd kept Goddard, NDS & McEvoy, we would only be delaying our current predicament... Except we would have much less young talent coming through than we do now.

Strategic list management is different to throwing games on purpose. Pretty sure we aren't trying to lose, we just have the worst list in the comp.

[saintsRrising]

If we trade our star players because we don't care much about winning now isn't that basically tanking?

Yes Super-Tanking.

I must admit that I have very mixed thoughts about it.

I fully understand the logic and the strategy.

But to only focus on Grand Final success is not what I am sure AFL should be all about. It is foreign to me to not do your best each and every year.

Make make no mistake though, at present winning the GF is the only game in town.

[saintsRrising]

I should add that our "lost-years" in such shocking drafting had left the club little choice if it wanted to chase GF success. We were already about to go over the cliff, and just chose instead to jump, rather than try and hang on fora bit longer.

The Blues too faced the same problem. They too, have had a dreadful era of drafting in the main propped up by the Judd deal, where the AFL allowed VISY to tip $millions Judd's way for being a Sustainability Ambassador (driving around a Prius seemed to be the extent of that!!). But even Juddy was not enough to propel them to any measure of finals success.

After over-rating their list they dumped Ratten and then as usual tried to buy their way of it with Daisy as their supposed star recruit, and some top up trades. Daisy has been poor and so the Blues are drifting lower. They are now hamstrung with Daisy's contract. The Blues should have gone the complete restructure, but instead tried to go into GF tilt mode when their list simply was not good enough. They have just lengthened their time in limbo, of neither going forward in the immediate-term, or the long-term.