C'Mon Guys

[joffaboy]

This is my last word on the subject, but lest s all get a grip.

Ross Lyon was an EXCELLENT coach for the Saints. He took us through a sustained period of success without getting the ultimate prize.

We have all argued the pro's and cons of his gameplan, lack of "development" of the kids, bringing in journeymen to play "roles", his boring (to some) forward press and structure etc etc.

But please do not try and rewrite history. Please dont try and somehow now paint Lyon as hopeless and that we almost won a couple of flags in spite of him, because it just aint true.

All this talk about treachery, and loyalty is also crap. Lyon walked into the joint never having anything to do with the Saints previously, why would he be loyal to the STKFC?

He didn't need to be loyal, he didn't have to stay also as the money from Freo is just too damned good. Who blames him for taking the money?

The way he did it stinks, shows him NOT to be a man of his word, shows him to be duplicitious and sneaky. A man lacking in integrity. All in my opinion of course.

However this in no way detracts from his performance whilst he coached our club.

It is only an opinion, but I reckon he is second only to Jeans as a Saints coach.

So leave off with the "hopeless" coach BS. He wasn't and wont be, and Freo will probably reap the benefits.

Lets be positive and hope our new coach helps us go one better than Lyon could.

[Hurricane]

Agree.

I was a huge Lyon supporter. Loved his no nonsense apporach and the success he achived

But he is gone now and while I loathe the way he left I cant bag what he did while he was with us.

Whoever the new coach is (unless its Malthouse) I will support them 100% too

BANG BANG

[kaos theory]

This is my last word on the subject, but lest s all get a grip.

Ross Lyon was an EXCELLENT coach for the Saints. He took us through a sustained period of success without getting the ultimate prize.

We have all argued the pro's and cons of his gameplan, lack of "development" of the kids, bringing in journeymen to play "roles", his boring (to some) forward press and structure etc etc.

But please do not try and rewrite history. Please dont try and somehow now paint Lyon as hopeless and that we almost won a couple of flags in spite of him, because it just aint true.

All this talk about treachery, and loyalty is also crap. Lyon walked into the joint never having anything to do with the Saints previously, why would he be loyal to the STKFC?

He didn't need to be loyal, he didn't have to stay also as the money from Freo is just too damned good. Who blames him for taking the money?

The way he did it stinks, shows him NOT to be a man of his word, shows him to be duplicitious and sneaky. A man lacking in integrity. All in my opinion of course.

However this in no way detracts from his performance whilst he coached our club.

It is only an opinion, but I reckon he is second only to Jeans as a Saints coach.

So leave off with the "hopeless" coach BS. He wasn't and wont be, and Freo will probably reap the benefits.

Lets be positive and hope our new coach helps us go one better than Lyon could.

Yes a very good coach, but the whole affair exposed much about his character and attitude, which then brings into question whether he had the long term interests of our club in mind at all.

Even if you win flags, you can still develop youth, just ask MM.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and thought he knew what he was doing with his selections this year, but I'm concerned that he inherited a very good list, and has now left it in worse condition that he got it.

That is not what a very good coach should do.

[Richter]

Fair enough, but it has become popular now to credit Lyon foremost for the team's achievements of the last three years. That lent credence to the myth of Lyon the great coach..... But look at the team that he came in to. It included all of these players with their best years ahead of him....

Lenny Hayes - already a dual AA (2003, 2005)
Nick Riewoldt - dual AA (2004, 2006)
Nick Dal Santo - AA (2005)
Luke Ball - AA (2005)

And that's not to mention....

Robert Harvey - 7x AA, dual Brownlow medallist
Fraser Gehrig - 2x AA, dual Coleman medallist

Also top 5 picks including Kosi, BJ, X Clarke

And other players yet to blossom - Sam Fisher, Leigh Montagna

==============================

Of course Lyon is a good coach, but seriously, has there ever been a coach who parachuted in to such a good list just before their prime?

Only one I can think of is Chris Scott - and even then all of their champs are past their prime. Remind me how Geelong are doing this season?

[desertsaint]

no, happy to slag him without rewriting history.
a loser. bridesmaid. choker. almost isn't good enough - which is how his record stands. stan alves took a much weaker team into the final - no one is calling him a great coach.
great coaches win flags - we've only had one.
no point ranking the also rans.

[HardSaint]

yep, reckon many of us have arrived at the same point jb, after doing the full circle of the last few days
no point in lingering on it - there's too much work to be done

[stinger]

no, happy to slag him without rewriting history.
a loser. bridesmaid. choker. almost isn't good enough - which is how his record stands. stan alves took a much weaker team into the final - no one is calling him a great coach.
great coaches win flags - we've only had one.
no point ranking the also rans.

yep...good points......i don't give a rats who agrees with me and who doesn't ...certainly there are a lot of posters who i have absolutely no regard for offering their opinions...and they are entitled to them of course.....

one thing i am certain of though is that lyon has almost ruined on of the best footballers ever to pull on a jumper for the saints...has left him one out battling two and three opponents for years ...they have bashed and crashed into him week after week......did he care....probably not...

...the guy coached for his win loss record.....and he coached not to lose.....he certainly didn't coach to win in the replayed grandfinal...and that was the day i lost all remaining respect for him.....and it seems that he also didn't really coach to win our last game...

..along with tens of thousands of saints supporters i am sick of having my heart broken aided and abetted by mercenaries who really don't give a f*** about st kilda......


...so..for me...give banger the job...at least he lives and breaths for the saints.....


lyon has gone...and good riddance.......as i said before i will despise him until the day i die......hope he rots in freo actually......

[SainterK]

Rohan in the Age wrote something similar yesterday, but I'm not sure how he arrived that this is the 'general' opinion of Saints fans?

Mostly it's been people bagging his character, principles, boring football...

But not alot of people saying he wasn't very good at coaching?

I feel like we are being scolded by a few for something that hasn't happened.

[stinger]

Rohan in the Age wrote something similar yesterday, but I'm not sure how he arrived that this is the 'general' opinion of Saints fans?

Mostly it's been people bagging his character, principles, boring football...

But not alot of people saying he wasn't very good at coaching?

I feel like we are being scolded by a few for something that hasn't happened.

rohan knows sfa really ....i proved it years ago...he just gets by printing crap that the general public can swallow without thinking too much.....his article was rubbish really...i was going to put him down point by point...but felt in the end it wasn't worth it....

most of the journos writing footy stories are lazy pricks....that arsewipe jake niall paints a dark picture in today's socialist rag...says we have no room in our salary cap as it's full.....doesn't the prick do any research......we had to include half a million bucks for that prick lovett in this years salary cap...and gardiner wasn't being p[aid peanuts.....mini might not have been on much..but his and eddy'ds departure would certainly free up some dollars......i reckon we would have the best part of a million bucks to play with after the delistings are finalised....so up your niall you turd....

[cowboy18]

This is my last word on the subject, but lest s all get a grip.

Ross Lyon was an EXCELLENT coach for the Saints. He took us through a sustained period of success without getting the ultimate prize.

We have all argued the pro's and cons of his gameplan, lack of "development" of the kids, bringing in journeymen to play "roles", his boring (to some) forward press and structure etc etc.

But please do not try and rewrite history. Please dont try and somehow now paint Lyon as hopeless and that we almost won a couple of flags in spite of him, because it just aint true.

All this talk about treachery, and loyalty is also crap. Lyon walked into the joint never having anything to do with the Saints previously, why would he be loyal to the STKFC?

He didn't need to be loyal, he didn't have to stay also as the money from Freo is just too damned good. Who blames him for taking the money?

The way he did it stinks, shows him NOT to be a man of his word, shows him to be duplicitious and sneaky. A man lacking in integrity. All in my opinion of course.

However this in no way detracts from his performance whilst he coached our club.

It is only an opinion, but I reckon he is second only to Jeans as a Saints coach.

So leave off with the "hopeless" coach BS. He wasn't and wont be, and Freo will probably reap the benefits.

Lets be positive and hope our new coach helps us go one better than Lyon could.

I don't disagree with anything there. he's gone, got close, let's move on.

[SydneySainter]

Agreed. Lyon was a great coach and suggest any less is simply lying to ourselves to make us feel better about the whole debacle.

As far as I'm concerned, the St Kilda board messed by big time by taking six months to present him with a new contract. But Lyon equally showed poor form by sneaking out the back door.

An messy mark on both St Kilda FC and Ross Lyon.

[plugger66]

no, happy to slag him without rewriting history.
a loser. bridesmaid. choker. almost isn't good enough - which is how his record stands. stan alves took a much weaker team into the final - no one is calling him a great coach.
great coaches win flags - we've only had one.
no point ranking the also rans.

Did you ever express that before last week. The guy may be a prick of a person but he is a great coach.

[Johnny Member]

Fair enough, but it has become popular now to credit Lyon foremost for the team's achievements of the last three years. That lent credence to the myth of Lyon the great coach..... But look at the team that he came in to. It included all of these players with their best years ahead of him....

Lenny Hayes - already a dual AA (2003, 2005)
Nick Riewoldt - dual AA (2004, 2006)
Nick Dal Santo - AA (2005)
Luke Ball - AA (2005)

And that's not to mention....

Robert Harvey - 7x AA, dual Brownlow medallist
Fraser Gehrig - 2x AA, dual Coleman medallist

Also top 5 picks including Kosi, BJ, X Clarke

And other players yet to blossom - Sam Fisher, Leigh Montagna

==============================

Of course Lyon is a good coach, but seriously, has there ever been a coach who parachuted in to such a good list just before their prime?

Only one I can think of is Chris Scott - and even then all of their champs are past their prime. Remind me how Geelong are doing this season?

These are my thoughts, pretty much exactly.

Overrated. And as I've said before, he seemed to magically go from being a good coach to a great coach, the moment the story broke about him maybe leaving us.


He had a great game plan in 09, and he had a great team to carry it out. He also had great injury 'management' (and perhaps some luck in this regard).
He stuffed up in the GF of 09, as much as the players did. Everyone needs to be accountable when you lose a close GF. Especially when the coach is making big calls right up to the last minute of the game.

But dare I say, the bad luck that cost us in 09, was reversed with some really good luck in 2010.


But since then, why is he great? We finished 7th, and couldn't kick more than 10 goals a week.
Our list appears to have very, very quickly gone from being easily in the top 3-4 in the comp, to looking horrible - all under his watch.


So for mine, he was very close in 09 to being a 'great coach'. Again in 2010 he was close, but the signs were obviously there pretty early on that another coach had worked him out and taken his style of play to another level already, whereas he stagnated and didn't improve.

Then by 2011, it's as plain as the nose on your face that he either was too stubborn/dumb to realise that about 6 other teams had improved their game plans and personnel to go straight past us and him, or he wasn't capable of actually changing what he knew.


So I can't see how right now, he can be considered a 'great' coach. Frankly, I can't see how anyone who has not coached a flag can be considered 'great'.

He seems to be a very good leader, in terms of being able to get his players to do what he wants them to do to the letter, but aside from that he has shown way too many flaws to be considered 'great'.


He's 2 years away from either proving he's great, or being a dud with one trick. And that's why I think he left, he knew that.

[plugger66]

Fair enough, but it has become popular now to credit Lyon foremost for the team's achievements of the last three years. That lent credence to the myth of Lyon the great coach..... But look at the team that he came in to. It included all of these players with their best years ahead of him....

Lenny Hayes - already a dual AA (2003, 2005)
Nick Riewoldt - dual AA (2004, 2006)
Nick Dal Santo - AA (2005)
Luke Ball - AA (2005)

And that's not to mention....

Robert Harvey - 7x AA, dual Brownlow medallist
Fraser Gehrig - 2x AA, dual Coleman medallist

Also top 5 picks including Kosi, BJ, X Clarke

And other players yet to blossom - Sam Fisher, Leigh Montagna

==============================

Of course Lyon is a good coach, but seriously, has there ever been a coach who parachuted in to such a good list just before their prime?

Only one I can think of is Chris Scott - and even then all of their champs are past their prime. Remind me how Geelong are doing this season?

These are my thoughts, pretty much exactly.

Overrated. And as I've said before, he seemed to magically go from being a good coach to a great coach, the moment the story broke about him maybe leaving us.


He had a great game plan in 09, and he had a great team to carry it out. He also had great injury 'management' (and perhaps some luck in this regard).
He stuffed up in the GF of 09, as much as the players did. Everyone needs to be accountable when you lose a close GF. Especially when the coach is making big calls right up to the last minute of the game.

But dare I say, the bad luck that cost us in 09, was reversed with some really good luck in 2010.


But since then, why is he great? We finished 7th, and couldn't kick more than 10 goals a week.
Our list appears to have very, very quickly gone from being easily in the top 3-4 in the comp, to looking horrible - all under his watch.


So for mine, he was very close in 09 to being a 'great coach'. Again in 2010 he was close, but the signs were obviously there pretty early on that another coach had worked him out and taken his style of play to another level already, whereas he stagnated and didn't improve.

Then by 2011, it's as plain as the nose on your face that he either was too stubborn/dumb to realise that about 6 other teams had improved their game plans and personnel to go straight past us and him, or he wasn't capable of actually changing what he knew.


So I can't see how right now, he can be considered a 'great' coach. Frankly, I can't see how anyone who has not coached a flag can be considered 'great'.

He seems to be a very good leader, in terms of being able to get his players to do what he wants them to do to the letter, but aside from that he has shown way too many flaws to be considered 'great'.


He's 2 years away from either proving he's great, or being a dud with one trick. And that's why I think he left, he knew that.

You are joking. In the media he was always rated in the top 2 of 3 coaches in the AFL but on here with some posters he seems to have gone from the messiah to a very average coach by many that have only praised him previously. He got a list that wasnt good enough in Allan jeans opinion to 2 GF's. That is what great coaches do. Even this year or poor start that was previously blamed on the media, Kim Duthie and a couple of stupid players has suddenly become RL's fault. By the way didnt MM have the same thing happen to him after losing 2 flags. They dropped down the ladder but no one is doubting he is a great coach.

[Johnny Member]

He got a list that wasnt good enough in Allan jeans opinion to 2 GF's. That is what great coaches do.

Who's list was better than ours in 09 and 2010? Who's list deserved to be in the GF ahead of us?

[plugger66]

He got a list that wasnt good enough in Allan jeans opinion to 2 GF's. That is what great coaches do.

Who's list was better than ours in 09 and 2010? Who's list deserved to be in the GF ahead of us?

Geelong last year. I think we had a great team in 2009 but not a great list. That is why he is a great coach. As many on here thought until 5 days ago. Funny that there wasnt to many complaing about our coach even early this season. It was other factors that are now his fault.

[Johnny Member]

He got a list that wasnt good enough in Allan jeans opinion to 2 GF's. That is what great coaches do.

Who's list was better than ours in 09 and 2010? Who's list deserved to be in the GF ahead of us?

Geelong last year. I think we had a great team in 2009 but not a great list. That is why he is a great coach. As many on here thought until 5 days ago. Funny that there wasnt to many complaing about our coach even early this season. It was other factors that are now his fault.

So basically, you think he's great a coach because our list wasn't good enough to be in the GF - but there was only 1 team over the 2 years that may have actually had a better list than us?

[plugger66]

He got a list that wasnt good enough in Allan jeans opinion to 2 GF's. That is what great coaches do.

Who's list was better than ours in 09 and 2010? Who's list deserved to be in the GF ahead of us?

Geelong last year. I think we had a great team in 2009 but not a great list. That is why he is a great coach. As many on here thought until 5 days ago. Funny that there wasnt to many complaing about our coach even early this season. It was other factors that are now his fault.

So basically, you think he's great a coach because our list wasn't good enough to be in the GF - but there was only 1 team over the 2 years that may have actually had a better list than us?

I said we had a great team in 2009 but not a great list. Well thats what it reads to me. We had a great team because the coach had us playing different footy to other sides. Footy that suited our list.

While we asking questions I have one for you. Are you able to show me some posts that you made about RL similar to the ones you have made in the last 4 days. There must be many because you have told us a lot lately how he had many faults as a coach.

[Wrote for Luck]

I couldn't agree more that we had a good list, and all this talk about our list not being good enough (if it weren't for Lyon) for a grand final is utter nonesense. Even some of our so called bottom six (i.e. Mini and Clarke) were high draft picks.

My take on Lyon is 2009 he nailed it tactically. Essentially he used the collective strength of the playing group to most accurately align with the most suitable game plan to match the collective strength. And a game plan as it turned out to be markedly different to what other teams were doing. Hence our success and praise.

2010 we had problems but naturallly still competitive and it was the will of the players more so than the game plan that surficed.

2011 - knocked about and distracted. No new cunning game plan from Lyon other than to play on. Promise of more attacking style turned into an embarrassment. Looked best when introduced young players.

A lot of us having been saying this (critical of Lyon) for a while so it is not a reaction to last week's defection. I genuinely believe Lyon had run out of ideas.

Positively we now have Ross Lyon's intellectual property and don't really need more of the same. Murdoch said 'I get everything I need out of an editor in 18 months'. We have got our money's worth out of him. And now to build on that with someone new.

[Moods]

Stomping our feet and screaming that Lyon is an ars&hole really get's us no where. Saying that he is a choker and a failure is actually an insult to the players that played in those GF's. THEY were the ones out there playing. How on earth did Lyon choke? Did he miss goals from the top of the goal square in 09? I have a different recollection of that game.

Stinger to say he didn't coach to win in the replayed GF last year is just bewildering. What could possibly be his motivation to NOT try and win in that replayed GF? If he is as selfish and egotistical as you claim, then surely a premiership is the ultimate reward for such a character is it not?

In 09 the cats list was so far superior to ours it wasn't funny. In fact I recall looking at both team lists the morning of the game (09 GF) and thinking ' how can we possibly win this game?'

In 2010 the pies list was so far superior to ours it was laughable. The cats also had a far better list/team.

If we have a crap year next year and don't make finals ppl will conveniently blame RL. I say that if he was coaching us next year we would be a lock to make the finals. Yes he has shown character traits in this past week that would make him untrustworthy as a person. He has proven to be very money orientated and only interested in #1 (actually traits of a very good capitalist ironically Stinger) But to say that he couldn't coach means that NO-ONE has ever been a good coach in the history of our club - except of course Yabby Jeans. You're kidding yourself if you think that!

[Johnny Member]

I said we had a great team in 2009 but not a great list. Well thats what it reads to me. We had a great team because the coach had us playing different footy to other sides. Footy that suited our list.

While we asking questions I have one for you. Are you able to show me some posts that you made about RL similar to the ones you have made in the last 4 days. There must be many because you have told us a lot lately how he had many faults as a coach.

So if it was such great coaching to get that list to the GF when it didn't deserve to be there, who's list was better?

You've said Geelong in 10. So who else?

[Johnny Member]

While we asking questions I have one for you. Are you able to show me some posts that you made about RL similar to the ones you have made in the last 4 days. There must be many because you have told us a lot lately how he had many faults as a coach.

I'm not here to win arguments. I'm here to discuss stuff.

If you want to go back through old threads to try to win some form of argument, go for your life.

Otherwise, you could just stick to the topic and/or answer the questions people put to you to further the discussion.



Why are you constantly intent on 'winning' on here? Are you unable to merely disagree with someone?

[plugger66]

While we asking questions I have one for you. Are you able to show me some posts that you made about RL similar to the ones you have made in the last 4 days. There must be many because you have told us a lot lately how he had many faults as a coach.

I'm not here to win arguments. I'm here to discuss stuff.

If you want to go back through old threads to try to win some form of argument, go for your life.

Otherwise, you could just stick to the topic and/or answer the questions people put to you to further the discussion.



Why are you constantly intent on 'winning' on here? Are you unable to merely disagree with someone?

Are you the riddler? Who said anything about winning arguments? I just would like to see if you have been consistant on this stance with RL or like some posters on here, just changed your mind about him because he did the dirty on us and now people all of sudden think the guy cant coach.

[Johnny Member]

Are you the riddler? Who said anything about winning arguments? I just would like to see if you have been consistant on this stance with RL or like some posters on here, just changed your mind about him because he did the dirty on us and now people all of sudden think the guy cant coach.

How does me being consistent or not change anything that I've written on this thread?

I've put forward an opinion, which you obviously disagree with. Instead of continuing the discussion, you want to run off and gather evidence to discredit me instead of addressing the current topic.

Why?


I'll ask again, if our list not being worthy of playing in GFs is the reason he is such a great coach, who's list in the AFL was better and therefore deserved to be in the GFs more than us?

You've given me Geelong in 2010 so far.

[plugger66]

Are you the riddler? Who said anything about winning arguments? I just would like to see if you have been consistant on this stance with RL or like some posters on here, just changed your mind about him because he did the dirty on us and now people all of sudden think the guy cant coach.

How does me being consistent or not change anything that I've written on this thread?

I've put forward an opinion, which you obviously disagree with. Instead of continuing the discussion, you want to run off and gather evidence to discredit me instead of addressing the current topic.

Why?


I'll ask again, if our list not being worthy of playing in GFs is the reason he is such a great coach, who's list in the AFL was better and therefore deserved to be in the GFs more than us?

You've given me Geelong in 2010 so far.

I gave you Geelong in 2009. Obviously the pies last year and Geelong last year. Even WB in 2009.

Like I said you have asked me a question and I would like to ask you one. Have you thought this way about RL before 5 days ago and if so did you make many posts on your thought. Now stop talking in riddles and be polite like I was and answer the question. Surely it is a reasonable question especially considering how the topic started.