The burden on Nick's shoulders

[westy]

This is a good read:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... 1d8n9.html

[ralphsmith]

Been posted before, still i really like the article.

Nick Riewoldt must hold up the premiership cup this year.

Why the hell can't we do it. Need to grip the season by the balls now.

[saintharvs]

Been posted before, still i really like the article.

Nick Riewoldt must hold up the premiership cup this year.

Why the hell can't we do it. Need to grip the season by the balls now.

I agree. Just about no player deserves it more.

[matrix]

lenny hayes deserves it more....

[Megsie]

A premiership this year without Lenny would be as cruel as any
missed chances from the past couple of years.
LENNY dserves it the most.

[bigcarl]

lenny hayes deserves it more....

yep

[Dr Spaceman]

lenny hayes deserves it more....

yep

I'm not denying that the much loved Lenny deserves a flag.

But I can't help but think that some of the things they talk about in regards to Nick and how he is received by opposition supporters also apply to some of his own club's supporters.

Both men are legends of the St Kilda Football Club.

[bigcarl]

Both men are legends of the St Kilda Football Club.

No doubt.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Some have suggested it recently and I suggested it for the second GF last year and it's usually nupped very quickly, but there could be genuine merit in putting him on the wing, as Richmond did very successfully with Richo.

Richmond, for example, have been too Jack Rielwodt conscious in the past 12 months and then, after he went off early against us, in round 2, they probably played the best 3 quarters of footy they've played in ages and scored a heap of goals, with a less one-dimensional and predictable forward line than they usually have with Jack in there.

There's also debate about whether the Bulldogs are any better off since Barry Hall arrived, even though he kicked 80 goals last season, because they actually scored less goals overall, as a team, than the year before, when he wasn't there. (386 goals overall in 25 games in 2009 without Hall, just 393 in 28 games since, with Hall kicking 22% of them)

We're way too Roo conscious and predictable when we go forward and every other team know it and try to double and triple team him at every opportunity.

This has not worked out well for us so far this year, as we've all seen.
Maybe we'd be better AS A TEAM, if he was somewhere other than in the forward line.

Once we got used to him not being there last year (after he did his hammy), we actually started playing really well and did about as well with him not there as we did when he was there (before and after his injury omission) from memory.

When he returned from injury we actually dropped off a bit, as we readjusted to him being there, but once we did readjust, I'm not sure we were really any better than we were in the latter stages of when he was out. That's despite getting one of the best in the comp back into our side.

If, on the other hand, we'd kept the same forward set-up that had been so successful prior to his return, once he had returned, but slotted him onto the wing, instead, we most likely would have started playing even better, instead of dropping off and then plateauing out again, at the same sort of level we were at before he came back.

That would be because our forward line would have been the same as it was prior to his return, when it was working well, but we'd have added an out and out "gun" onto the wing. Where he would provide a great target when kicking it out of defence, would get kicks in the middle, would go and help out down back when needed and of course who would push hard forward and be one-out a lot more often. We also likely all know how good he is running with the flight of the ball towards goal, which he would of course be doing a lot, if starting on the wing.

As I've said before, he'd probably get almost as many goals pushing forward from the wing as he does playing forward, yet he'd surely be more valuable around the ground, taking 15 marks a game and dominating, like Richo did, than he is camped permanently forward, often going up against 3 and shortening his career in the process.

For much of his career Roo has dominated games. He hasn't been doing that as much of late and our style of play hasn't helped him. If he went onto the wing he'd probably start to dominate games again and we'd quite likely be better off for it. It would surely give the side a big lift, too.

[Teflon]

Some have suggested it recently and I suggested it for the second GF last year and it's usually nupped very quickly, but there could be genuine merit in putting him on the wing, as Richmond did very successfully with Richo.

Interesting the other night I actually felt we looked more dangerous with Riewoldt playing that link role between attack-defence and more unpredictable.....

I know Nicks a great fwd.........but worth a shot for mine..

Hes such a demanding presence up fwd (and could still play there in bursts) but why not free him up aka Goodes and let him roam?

I sometimes think this is the only thing that will force St Kilda out of being predictable going fwd.......

[bigcarl]

Some have suggested it recently and I suggested it for the second GF last year and it's usually nupped very quickly, but there could be genuine merit in putting him on the wing, as Richmond did very successfully with Richo.

Interesting the other night I actually felt we looked more dangerous with Riewoldt playing that link role between attack-defence and more unpredictable.....

I know Nicks a great fwd.........but worth a shot for mine..

Hes such a demanding presence up fwd (and could still play there in bursts) but why not free him up aka Goodes and let him roam?

I sometimes think this is the only thing that will force St Kilda out of being predictable going fwd.......

Either that or find another dangerous key position forward to split the opposition's attention (and split Nick's teammates' attention).

Someone who commands the ball, takes marks, leads and kicks goals.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Been posted before, still i really like the article.

Nick Riewoldt must hold up the premiership cup this year.

Why the hell can't we do it. Need to grip the season by the balls now.

My oath!

PS yes it'd be a pity if Lenny missed it, but ultimately what does it matter? If you told me we'd win the flag in the next couple of years but Nick and Lenny would miss out, I'd take it!


They'd still be part of it anyway...Big Carl missed out in '66 but I see that in recent reunions Carl, Ross Oakley and players of the era are included.


We need a bl**dy flag!

[Teflon]

Some have suggested it recently and I suggested it for the second GF last year and it's usually nupped very quickly, but there could be genuine merit in putting him on the wing, as Richmond did very successfully with Richo.

Interesting the other night I actually felt we looked more dangerous with Riewoldt playing that link role between attack-defence and more unpredictable.....

I know Nicks a great fwd.........but worth a shot for mine..

Hes such a demanding presence up fwd (and could still play there in bursts) but why not free him up aka Goodes and let him roam?

I sometimes think this is the only thing that will force St Kilda out of being predictable going fwd.......

Either that or find another dangerous key position forward to split the opposition's attention (and split Nick's teammates' attention).

Someone who commands the ball, takes marks, leads and kicks goals.

But thats the point....do we bother finding that or go small? and leave Riewoldt to roam?

OR

Do we find a "Dawes" to release Roo.....and use our "Dawes" plus Kosi surrounded by smalls and Roo roams?

OR

Stick with Roo.......and hope we find a viable alternative that stops us kicking it to him 2 out of 3 times or at the least stops him being triple teamed?


Either way,I reckon freeing Riewoldt up to roam ala Goodes is a bigger headache for oppositon sides than what we are dishing up.....and it just may spark Roo also.....as it did Richo...

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Not only did it spark Richo, but did you hear their crowd when he was taking all those marks, when playing on the wing?
With every mark he'd take they seemed to get more and more excited and you could feel their energy and noise increase and in turn this would give Richo and the Tigers a lift. It was really something to be there and experience it first hand.
We could sure as hell do with a lift like that at the moment.
But since this is a relatively radical idea it's very unlikely to happen any time soon, since we're so conservative, so we simply have to find a better way to isolate Roo and to be less Roo-conscious when kicking it forward.
They just seem to look ahead, see him there with his hand in the air and kick it to him, whether it's a good idea or not, or whether there's a better option somewhere else or not. That needs to change, if we're to get anywhere significant, surely.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Some have suggested it recently and I suggested it for the second GF last year and it's usually nupped very quickly, but there could be genuine merit in putting him on the wing, as Richmond did very successfully with Richo.

Interesting the other night I actually felt we looked more dangerous with Riewoldt playing that link role between attack-defence and more unpredictable.....

I know Nicks a great fwd.........but worth a shot for mine..

Hes such a demanding presence up fwd (and could still play there in bursts) but why not free him up aka Goodes and let him roam?

I sometimes think this is the only thing that will force St Kilda out of being predictable going fwd.......

Either that or find another dangerous key position forward to split the opposition's attention (and split Nick's teammates' attention).

Someone who commands the ball, takes marks, leads and kicks goals.

Exactly. We've both been calling for it for a bloody long time but it still hasn't happened and we still bloody need it to happen. If we want to win a premiership, that is.

[SainterK]

lenny hayes deserves it more....

yep

No, I deserve it more

[Johnny Member]

Interesting the other night I actually felt we looked more dangerous with Riewoldt playing that link role between attack-defence and more unpredictable.....

I know Nicks a great fwd.........but worth a shot for mine..

Yeah, I agree.


I think the answer is to play him up the ground more, but not leave 2 statues in the F50 whilst he does it.
That just doesn't work for us.

What seems to work (and worked on Thursday night) is Roo up the ground, with smalls in the F50.

It wasn't until Kosi and Stanley weren't in there that we suddenly found the goals and were also able to apply defensive pressure in there.

[BigMart]

He should be able to do both....

Either play high and rest deep

Or

Play deep and inject himself high if needed....or not getting a kick

[bergholt]

Once we got used to him not being there last year (after he did his hammy), we actually started playing really well and did about as well with him not there as we did when he was there (before and after his injury omission) from memory.

good question, here are the stats from the start of 09 until today with and without roo (there's a song about that):

with riewoldt: average 92.0 points, 72.1% wins
without riewoldt: average 82.5 points, 75.0% wins

so we definitely have scored worse without him, but we actually won more games. how about for kosi:

with koschitzke: average 89.2 points, 73.3% wins
without koschitzke: average 93.3 points, 70.0% wins

so we score less but win more with kosi in the side?

it really gets interesting when you start to include milne and schneider:

roo in team: 92.0 points
schneider in team: 91.7 points
milne in team: 90.8 points
kosi in team: 89.2 points

schneider in team: 76.5% wins
kosi in team: 73.3% wins
milne in team: 73.1% wins
riewoldt in team: 72.1% wins

so with riewoldt in the team we score the most, but this makes it least likely that we'll win - i guess the opposition score well also.

however, schneider is the barometer. when he's in the team, we're most likely to win. this was shown pretty clearly on thursday night.

[Teflon]

Once we got used to him not being there last year (after he did his hammy), we actually started playing really well and did about as well with him not there as we did when he was there (before and after his injury omission) from memory.

good question, here are the stats from the start of 09 until today with and without roo (there's a song about that):

with riewoldt: average 92.0 points, 72.1% wins
without riewoldt: average 82.5 points, 75.0% wins

so we definitely have scored worse without him, but we actually won more games. how about for kosi:

with koschitzke: average 89.2 points, 73.3% wins
without koschitzke: average 93.3 points, 70.0% wins

so we score less but win more with kosi in the side?

it really gets interesting when you start to include milne and schneider:

roo in team: 92.0 points
schneider in team: 91.7 points
milne in team: 90.8 points
kosi in team: 89.2 points

schneider in team: 76.5% wins
kosi in team: 73.3% wins
milne in team: 73.1% wins
riewoldt in team: 72.1% wins

so with riewoldt in the team we score the most, but this makes it least likely that we'll win - i guess the opposition score well also.

however, schneider is the barometer. when he's in the team, we're most likely to win. this was shown pretty clearly on thursday night.

Interesting post.

Ive long thought Schneiders polish is clearly missed when hes out. Hes been a great get for the club IMHO. Now if we could just find a Milne type with great fwd pressure BUT who doesnt play 1 position only and ccould also go in the middle...maybe in J Steven we have?

Its flexibility we need - Im not convinced we can afford to have luxury "solo" fwd pockets nor carry defenders who cant kick and always kick backwards.....

[Teflon]

He should be able to do both....

Either play high and rest deep

Or

Play deep and inject himself high if needed....or not getting a kick

yes but again thats from CHF.

Why not start him at times from a wing........?

His field kicking is excellent, hes still got licence to go deep fwd or back.....and we are forced to be less predictable up fwd.

Im not convinced with Roo up fwd that we have players with the ability under pressure not to kick to him...

[Sainternist]

some very asute observations made by niall. as much as i hate to admit it, the buckley comparsion is pretty close to the mark.

i particularly like this paragraph

Riewoldt may wonder how he managed to end up in the middle of these sagas and strange happenings, leading a Truman Show life, without actually behaving like Brendan Fevola, Wayne Carey or Ben Cousins. The only real slights on his career are bouts of goalkicking yips and modest output in three grand finals.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

On the other hand, we could just leave him in the forward line to rot, like he is at the moment.
He's almost a waste of space up there at the moment. Dropping marks, fumbling, missing crucial goals, with everyone looking to him to lift us. Demoralizing.