Some Thoughts: Our best 22 after 4 Rounds...

[saintsRrising]

Well after four rounds the players who are "certain first 22" may have changed.

We have good depth this year, and this means that some positions are up for grabs.

Current Locks (if fit).


Roo
Dal
Lenny
BJ
Joey
Fisher
Gilbert
Jones
Milne
Kosi
Gram
Blake
Baker
Gardiner
(14 players)

Looking Good
Gwilt: May have had his sliding doors moment with Raph, Dempster & Eddy all ruled out by injury in the pre-season giving Gwilt an opportunity to shine in our defence. And shine he has. Those long accurate kicks are a real plus.
Raph
King
Armitage Armo should possibly be in the next tier. But I have him here due to his in and under work, and that we have a much larger group of mids that can play outside than inside.
(4 players)

Need to lift, but definitely in the mix

Schneider: NAB was good but has quietened.
McQualter: Not quite as good as his 09 form
Ray: Just needs to find the ball a bit more.

It is hard to imagine any of these three not playing, but if we get a "full" list to choose from someone is going to get squeezed out. With Gwilt and Raph available to play down back that may well mean that BJ (once Roo returns) becomes that long lusted for "third tall forward" (still rotating thru the midfield though). In which case we may play 2 rather than 3 small forwards.


Peake: Like Ray, just needs to find the ball more.
Geary: Impresses with his attack on the ball. some kicks can be wayward, but there is alot to like.
(5 players)

Such is our depth that all of this group of five is actually ok. None are playing badly, but intense competition is going to force someone out...subject injuries, suspensions etc.

The "pleasing" thing is that you are going to be scratching your head about who to leave out, rather than who to bring in.



Really need to lift
Zac. If he was a flanker he would probably be out of the team at present. However he is our best option for FB and that gets him time to rediscover his confidence and form (and in particular if the rumours of his being ill over the Summer are correct).
Lyon has appeared to bea coach that shows faith in players and who gives them by and large extended runs to prove themselves, or not.

(1 player
Note that is 14 + 4 +5 +1 = 24 players for 22 spots. 23 if Roo not counted.)

The Bottom Six
One of footy's talking points is how good a team's bottom six is.
At present ours is pretty darn good. Pressure will be kept on too as with thos last few places in the team there are more players that are playing well enough to play, than can play. This is a very healthy sign.

Injuries and/or supensions will mean that some may miss, and Roo will be mising for a big chunk of the season.


False start
Ben. Early season form has not been good (though long-term I believe he will still make it), though is not dismall either. Was very good last week for Sandy. However he remains in the group outside of the 22 that needs to improve if he wants tobecome a "first choice" player and force out one of King or Gardiner. Injurires and rtations are likely to see him play a number of games, but he needs to get better if h wanbts September action.

Wrong place , wrong time
Steven. Burnt at pre-season training, and has played very well in his last two VFL games. But going down when he did gave others the chance and he may now have to bide his time, a bit like Armitage did last year after having his pre-season interupted.

Being young and with only one game, it will count against him in terms of the coaches confidence for him to be this year a 4 quarter Saints footy player. Will be critical for him to seize the day when opportunity comes his way this season.

Back-up

Eddy. Like Steven pre-season injury has cruelled his selection chances.

Eddy is probably a barometer of the improvement of our "bottom six". He is great worker that Lyon loves for Saint's Footy, but players like Gwilt, and Geary who has built up, have now probably gone past him.
Dempster like Eddy will probably remain as back-up once he returns from injury. Eddy has 23 games over the last two years, but may not get a game in 2010.

Patto. Well IMO he was only drafted as a depth player in case of injury to our talls, and that is where he will remain while Ben and Stanley develop.


In the Wings
Stanley. Is young and has lapses in concentration, but is an excitement machine. Will probably get a game or two sometime, but may remain out of serious contention this year.

J Smith. If they can get his ankle etc ok.. Who knows? Is a wildcard at present. Our other wildcard in Tommy W is for next season.

After that there are some handy players who may do ok if injury calls upon them, but they are basically in the development phase still. Opportunities for senior game will be rare...and may require another "Hawks 2009" game.


Overall things are looking very "pleasing" at present. But they need to as there is some strong competition for the flag this year, stronger than last year.

Your Thoughts?

[Milton66]

Still find it odd that people underate Ray.

Last year he averaged 23 touches a game. This year he's on 19. Very good efficiency. Obviously plays his part.

I'd be interested to see what his current TOG is.

Currently ranked 2nd at the club for disposal efficiency: 89 percent.

And I don't think he's missed a game since R1 last year.

[quidnunc]

I must congratulate you saintRising on a very good read. No bitching or abusing just a personal assessment that I enjoyed reading.

To add to it:

Armitage - very pleasing development, be patient
Stanley - personally I can't wait for debut, but not based on VFL form;
Scneids and McQ - both need to get more of the ball (or come under question) and put it through the big sticks, a forwards job.
Blake - damn good very honest player,
Baker - better than credit given.

No need to mention the prime movers who are all moving well

[ace]

Sadly it is exceptionally rare that any team is able to field its' best 22.

Reality is that it is the best TEAM 22 AVAILABLE that are selected.
The best team 22 available has to cover for those missing from the best 22 and still win matches.
That is why the best 30 is probably a better measure of a team's list.

But then best 22 is often not the best team when all players are available.
The best team is better.
A team of 22 players each complimenting each other in a team structure and all playing to the same strategy.

I very much doubt that the All Australian non-team would beat the Premiers, simply because they are not a team.
The structures and teamwork of the Premiers would win out.

Remember when the Australian cricket team humiliated the Rest of World's best in both a test match and one days.

How many members of the world's best in recent history defence made the All Australian non-team last year.

[saintsRrising]

Still find it odd that people underate Ray.

Last year he averaged 23 touches a game. This year he's on 19. Very good efficiency. Obviously plays his part.

.

Disposal average this year is 17 I believe.

Everything is relative.

Of our outside mids where would you put Ray?

I have above him:

BJ
Joey
Gram.

As mids Lenny, Dal are clearly above as well.
CJ is lock as our Tagger.


IMO we just have very good depth now. That Ray is in the bottom six is morea reflection on the quality of the team than on himself. Though to improve his ranking he for example would need to go past gra. Now he may, but right here and now he is not.

[saintsRrising]

I'd be interested to see what his current TOG is.

.

86% over the first 4 games. Which is quite high.
Joey is 82%
Gram 90%
Peake 78%
Dal 84%
Hayes 69%

[Milton66]

Yeah, I'd have him in our bottom 6... which is still your best 22 so to speak.

Our depth has almost become like a funnel... as we blood new defenders, it pushed previous flankers like Gram and BJ up the field and so on.

Gwilt's ascencion makes it difficult for guys like Eddy and more improtantly, Dempster.

If Raph continues to improve, I don't think we're far of our "best" 22.

Having a fit J Smith would throw a real spanner in the works IMO, and some one will have to miss out. Then again they might use him as a forward.

Overall a good problem to have. As I said to a mate on Sunday... if this was 20 years ago and we lost Plugger, we'd probably close shop for the year.

[mad saint guy]

The number of AFL-quality players who can't get a game is a good sign.

I'd have this as our best team when fully fit (excluding J. Smith as we haven't seen him in action)

B: Gwilt, Dawson, Baker
HB: S.Fisher, Blake, Gilbert
C: Montagna, Hayes, Gram
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Schneider
F: Milne, Koschitzke, McQualter

Foll: Gardiner, Dal Santo, Jones
Int: King, Ray, Armitage, R.Clarke

Solid AFL quality emergencies: Peake, Geary, Dempster, McEvoy, Eddy, Steven
Depth/developing players who could be used: Pattison, Lynch, Stanley, Miles, A. Smith

[santazzi]

Thanks SR a good read..............I am excited about our depth.........because not only that we can cover unforseen injuries with comfort but also we can flirt with the idea of mixing "Saints Footy" with a tiny winy bit of "Unsociable Footy"at moments of our strategic and tactical choosing..............

[ace]

I'd be interested to see what his current TOG is.

.

86% over the first 4 games. Which is quite high.
Joey is 82%
Gram 90%
Peake 78%
Dal 84%
Hayes 69%

Where do you get the TOG stats from.

[Milton66]

The number of AFL-quality players who can't get a game is a good sign.

I'd have this as our best team when fully fit (excluding J. Smith as we haven't seen him in action)

B: Gwilt, Dawson, Baker
HB: S.Fisher, Blake, Gilbert
C: Montagna, Hayes, Gram
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, Schneider
F: Milne, Koschitzke, McQualter

Foll: Gardiner, Dal Santo, Jones
Int: King, Ray, Armitage, R.Clarke

Solid AFL quality emergencies: Peake, Geary, Dempster, McEvoy, Eddy, Steven
Depth/developing players who could be used: Pattison, Lynch, Stanley, Miles, A. Smith

LOL... so Jimmy G has rocked the apple cart this year by improving.

I'd have Geary in the 22, but who goes out? After the GF I would have said Milne, but so far so good this year.

We're still a strong bodies medium fwd short IMO.

So who fills that hole? Not sure that BJ is it.

[saintsRrising]

Where do you get the TOG stats from.

Just click on the player you are interested in: http://superstats.heraldsun.com.au/play ... t-130.html

(Note St Fid put this link up in an earlier thread a bit back).

[rexy]

Good thread and a real tough question. Can look at it from 2 angles, 1 who are our best 22 players or 2 who are the 22 players that fit our structure game plan etc the best. Still not sure for instance on how we want our forward line to look, for a number of years we have been crying out for a 3rd marking forward yet in reality went into last week without a genuine tall forward at all, now we are all saying that a tall needs to come out for Kosi yet effectively we were missing two talls from our usual structure.

Do you pick the best 22 individuals and assign them a role or do you pick the best guys for each position?

I like Zac in the 22 as he is a genuine tall defender that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the tall forwards and resting ruckman, on form though I would not say he is one of the best 22 on our list?

Conundrum I know.

Loving the intensity and passion that Geary is bringing, Gram and Ray are a better footballers though.

Like BJ as a utility but would you rather have BJ on the ball and Gwilt in the back line or BJ in the backline and Armo available as part of the midfield rotations?

I dont know any of the answers, probably 28 guys right now who could make a case for best 22, injuries will play there part as to should opposition strengths and weaknesses.

Enjoying watching and wondering what will happen thats for sure.

[Milton66]

well... the first piece of the puzzle will be filled on Saturday when Kosi comes back.

[Saintsfan]

Jarryn Geary has looked okay but I am unsure of his position on the park?

What does he do? He lays a few good tackles however his kicking is not up to scratch

[SainterK]

Jarryn Geary has looked okay but I am unsure of his position on the park?

What does he do? He lays a few good tackles however his kicking is not up to scratch

I think Geary has come on leaps and bounds, largely due to his body quickly catching up to his footy smarts. The instincts are there, he can find it the footy. I also like the agressive side to his game, and how he uses this to the advantage of his teammates.

A few on here have said he may struggle to retain a spot, but I think he is doing his best to prove otherwise.

Armitage, well the game against Freo did alot to convince me that he knows what he needs to do. Lenny needs someone in there, sharing the load and winning the contested footy. Armo has improved each week, it's like he has clicked that if he is first to the footy he will be rewarded for his efforts.

I personally see him in the best 22, would take a bit to convince me that he isn't required in there.

[Con Gorozidis]

Good read SR. I reckon you are pretty much spot on with your rankings and assessment.

I guess i might have added that Will Johnson is breathing down Zac's neck and Jack Steven is doing the same to Mcqualter.

And A Smith is probably behind Peake and Ray - but not by much...

[terry smith rules]

Don't get me wrong I don't have it in for #32 but I really believe Geary has gone past him.

Geary can and should play that defensive forward, he can kick goals he is fast and he has aggression.

[shmic_s]

Hows Nick Heyne's preseason been? Haven't heard much about him and he was showing something last year. Possibly a forward line option, knows how to kick a goal.

[Milton66]

Don't get me wrong I don't have it in for #32 but I really believe Geary has gone past him.

Geary can and should play that defensive forward, he can kick goals he is fast and he has aggression.

I was just thinking the same.

He'll be the perfect replacement for Milne, or perhaps Mini. Let's wait and see.

[gringo]

I can't believe people that put Milne in any shouldn't get a game list. He has over the years had his bad moments but based on the grand final you would have to leave off most of our forwards who failed to really fire.

Milne will be remembered as a star of the St kilda footy team and is unfairly derided. He plays a position that requires a fair amount of space and freedom- small crumbers often do have quiet finals because they are checked that much harder and are thus unable to be as creative. On the radio on the way home the other night they said he averages 2 goals a game over his entire career making him the most successful fp in the games history.

Who would replace the goals he kicks? It must have been around the 50 mark last year.

[Milton66]

You might want to read my post carefully...

will be

[samoht]

We need to develop a medium sized half forward flanker. .. we can't go into the next final series with 3 small forwards.

..and I'd like to see Goddard continue his midfield/quarter back role .. we probably lose 4 goals being set up from the midfield when he plays forward.
He's not medium sized for starters.

I hope Heyne is hitting the gym... he has the right height and instincts, just needs a couple of more kilos.
Is he fit at the moment .. I haven't heard much about him ?

[Milton66]

Here's my take on fwd's...

Milne is a great crumber, but can be contained with a bigger opponent.

Schneider will play more in the midfield this year.

McQualter is great defensively, but for mine, he doesn't have as much impact on the scores as I'd like. I don't think we can simply have a defender playing up fwd.

We need a player with impact, like Chapman. Someone who is aggressive and has a solid physical presence.

IMO.

[rexy]

This is really interesting reading.

We seem to be still talking about the 3rd tall/medium marking forward, physical presence etc. Yet many want Zac dropped this week for Kosi as it is felt we will be to tall? What shall we do when Reiwoldt comes back, maybe drop Blake as well, tall for a tall?

Seems easy to say I like this guy in the side, this is the type of player we need etc, but when you actually sit down and try and put together a best 22 with nobody injured it is very difficult. How many tall forwards, how much run out of defence, how many mids in the rotation, how many dedicated ruckmen, is versatile better than being really solid in one position, youth speed and moblity or experience and strength?

Who makes up the match comittee, is it just coaching staff? Would Roo be involved? What about admin staff like say Bourke or Thompson? Tough job IMO.