Someone care to school me on the history of the drop punt

[Beej]

After watching that '71 GF and the combined 11% kicking efficiency of both sides involved I have a few questions.

The drop-punt obviously wasn't a permanent fixture in the game at that time, why?

You would think that someone, even by accident, may have got on to a drop-punt at some stage throughout the 80(!) years and thought, "hang on a second, that went pretty straight!"

The drop punt is essentially a drop kick without the the ball hitting the ground before the boot. The ball spins the same way. Why did it take so long to realise that half-volleying the footy was not the most effective method?

A side would've dominated had they mastered the drop-punt earlier.

Foot-skills today would be far more developed had they mastered the drop punt earlier.

Which leaves me to this: when was the drop punt popularised? And by who? Was it seen as a big thing when it was introduced?

Were the media waxing lyrical about a side that were kicking the ball with incredible precision? Did footballers begin tentatively moving into space thinking, "by jingo, there's a chance he could kick this to me here!"

Anyone?

[Munga]

I'd say because the footies were fatter back then. Today's narrower balls are easier for bananas, and probably more volatile through the air if you don't get the spin right.

[bigcarl]

properly executed, the drop kick was devastating.

it could travel 70 metres into the wind without deviating.

the problem was that very few could execute it properly and consistently and coaches realised that the percentage play was something more reliable, like the drop punt.

of the three great full forwards of the late 60s-early 70s - peter mckenna, doug wade and peter hudson - only mckenna used the drop punt.

wade usually kicked big torpedos. hudson perfected a weird sort of a flat punt that just used to go through.

someone like stinger who is a bit older would be interesting to hear on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_punt

wikipedia credits jack dyer with inventing the drop punt, but aside from that doesn't really tell me much.

[Beej]

I'd say because the footies were fatter back then. Today's narrower balls are easier for bananas, and probably more volatile through the air if you don't get the spin right.

They were fatter in the very, very early days. Possibly early 1900s.

These don't look much fatter though...

properly executed, the drop kick was devastating. it could travel 70 metres into the wind. the problem was that very few could execute it properly and consistently.

of the three great full forwards of the late 60s-early 70s - peter mckenna, doug wade and peter hudson - only mckenna used the drop punt.

wade usually kicked big torpedos. hudson perfected a wierd sort of a flat punt that just used to go through.

someone like stinger who is a bit older would be interesting to hear on this subject.

I can see how a properly executed drop kick would've been handy into a wind because they come off the boot hard and have an extremely low trajectory.

Doug Wade would kick torpedoes?! 267 games, 1057 goals. That's quite incredible.

Which decade was the drop punt popularised? That is, when pretty much the entire league to man would use it. 80s?

[bigcarl]

Which decade was the drop punt popularised? That is, when pretty much the entire league to man would use it. 80s?

early to mid 70s is my guess.

[St Fidelius]

The late Jack Dyer was always saying on television the he was the one that introduced the drop punt to the game

[bigcarl]

Doug Wade would kick torpedoes?! 267 games, 1057 goals. That's quite incredible.

if distance was a problem, plugger would occasionally let one loose. they used to go straight, too.

i remember him kicking a torp from about 60 (which was outside his comfortable drop punt range) for victoria against south australia at the mcg in the early 90s.

he was coming back from a groin injury and was only half fit, but kicked 5 from memory.

[Beej]

Clear similarities between Jack Dyer and Justin Koschitzke

Hardened by the tribulations of his early career, a new Dyer emerged. Physical and ferocious, he became renowned as a man who did not deviate regardless of what was in his path, an approach that Dyer attributed to the knee injury. In his own phrase, Dyer was unable to "turn off" or "pull up" and he sometimes collected a teammate if his timing was out.

[PJ]

It's interesting to think that there used to be several types of kicks - drop kick, torpedo, drop punt but we've brought it down to one - the drop punt. The other varieties have been educated out of the game. All kids are taught one way to kick now but I can understand why - the others are more risky unless you can perfect them - it's about the percentages.

[bigcarl]

The other varieties have been educated out of the game. All kids are taught one way to kick now but I can understand why - the others are more risky unless you can perfect them - it's about the percentages.

exactly right. it's a bit of a shame really, though you can see why it has happened.

all the same if someone comes along who can consistently kick goals from 65-70 out using a torp, the coach would be a fool to educate that out of his game.

[PJ]

all the same if someone comes along who can consistently kick goals from 65-70 out using a torp, the coach would be a fool to educate that out of his game.

Very true but unfortunately there will be no one around soon who can teach the skills let alone has even seen a different kind of kick - it's a bit sad loosing some of the character/flavour of the old game.

[Beej]

If Doug Wade could kick 1000 goals off barrels he obviously didn't need the drop punt.

I guess if you learn a certain way as a kid you eventually perfect it.

I'm sure if a kid grew up kicking nothing but torps today, he would continue to kick them at whichever level he played.

As PJ was saying, the torp is just not encouraged today.

I imagine though that it would be more difficult to hit-up teammates via a torp as opposed to using a torp to kick for goal, because when kicking for goal you just need to ensure the kick is straight, whereas with field kicking you need to judge weight as well which is more difficult with a torpedo.

The drop punt is best for weighted kicks because you can kick soft drop punts and hard drop punts without affecting the spin whereas if you try and kick a soft torpedo often the ball does not spin right.

[bigcarl]

I imagine though that it would be more difficult to hit-up teammates via a torp as opposed to using a torp to kick for goal, because when kicking for goal you just need to ensure the kick is straight, whereas with field kicking you need to judge weight as well which is more difficult with a torpedo.

plus they are harder to mark.

[Beej]

I imagine though that it would be more difficult to hit-up teammates via a torp as opposed to using a torp to kick for goal, because when kicking for goal you just need to ensure the kick is straight, whereas with field kicking you need to judge weight as well which is more difficult with a torpedo.

plus they are harder to mark.

Yep, because of the flight as much as the spin. I imagine footballers could read the flight of a torpedo better in the past.

Probably why when someone gets onto a good torp today, because footballers rarely see it, you see a whole group of players scurrying around not knowing where it's going to land.

Or has that always happened?

[PJ]

The drop punt is best for weighted kicks because you can kick soft drop punts and hard drop punts without affecting the spin whereas if you try and kick a soft torpedo often the ball does not spin right.

Correct - the torpedo is the colossus of kicks, it's the unload kick, the bomb kind of like watching a javelin sail through the air - very impressive to watch and it feels sweet coming off the boot but has little to no value as a adjustable distance or weighted kick as you say.

[bigcarl]

interesting topic.

barassi's 1970 grand final half time "handball" edict to the carlton players might have had a bit to do with the evolution of the drop punt.

that is often credited as a turning point and the invention of the modern running game.

before it was kick to a contest and hope. afterwards it was maintain possession and run, using handball and accurate field kicking (the drop punt).

or is that too simplistic?

[ausfatcat]

interesting topic.

barassi's 1970 grand final half time "handball" edict to the carlton players might have had a bit to do with the evolution of the drop punt.

I haven't doubled checked this but I remember a commentator or Barrassi one day say that they infact despite that speach they handballed less in the second half than the first half.


edit the stats

Here we go percentage wise of disposals a slight increase in handballs. Absolutely nothing compared to todays percentages.

handballs 1st half 16%
handballs 2nd half 20%

Where as Collingwood was around 17% for the match.

http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/1970_vfl ... tatistical Analysis

[Beej]

What did Barassi say to his players exactly?

I always thought Freo under Neesham were responsible for introducing the run/handball style.

[bigcarl]

What did Barassi say to his players exactly?

handball, handball, handball.

out of the corner of his mouth as only he can.

... or so legend has it.

[Beej]

What did Barassi say to his players exactly?

handball, handball, handball. out of the corner of his mouth as only he can.

... or so legend has it.

It must have dropped off and then had a revival because late 80s, early 90s it was back to a predominantly kicking style.

As I edited above, I always thought it was Freo/Neesham who introduced it.

I remember them being ridiculed many a time for the overuse of the handball.

[bigcarl]

What did Barassi say to his players exactly?

handball, handball, handball. out of the corner of his mouth as only he can.

... or so legend has it.

It must have dropped off and then had a revival because late 80s, early 90s it was back to a predominantly kicking style.

As I edited above, I always thought it was Freo/Neesham who introduced it.

I remember them being ridiculed many a time for the overuse of the handball.

yep, like a lot of things in football it is probably cyclical.

a long-kicking game can work if the players excecuting it are good enough. same for a running/handball style.

clubs (whether they have the right type of personnll or not) tend to ape the current successful teams, sometimes with interesting results.

[markinUSA]

I read a lot of books written between the 50s and 70s about the history of the VFL which I borrowed from a library when I was a kid.

I can remember the authors saying that Bob Skilton's ability to kick with both feet, and using a drop punt, was a real turning point in kicking. People said similar things about the St Kilda champion, Ian Stewart.

Indeed, some of the chapters by people like Doug Wade and Teddy Whitten (who btoh wrote chapters on the torpedo punt) specifically said that they didn't know much about the drop punt.

Many champs had the drop kick down to a fine art.

I also think that the footy has changed - in part because Sherrin has a monopoly on footy styles. Yes, there was always a narrower Sherrin, but some teams used a Faulkner footy too. Faulkner balls were more suited to punts.

Peter Hudson used a similar style of ball drop to today's drop punt - but instead of kicking under the ball, he would kick towards the middle (almost like rugby) and the ball would bounce end over end, straight. In fact, as a kid playing in the late 70s and early 80s, I actually copied his approach to holding the ball when I was very very close to goal. The end over end style of spinning the ball leaves a lot less room for deviation. But the distance you can kick a ball is less.

Barassi's 1970s half-time speech is certainly credited with a new style of play... it helped (but was not the sole reason for) Carlton's win in a Grand Final. Equally important was the inspiring legendary mark of Jezza.

Geelong's Polly Farmer is also credited in these early books as revolutionizing the game with his handpassing - people wrote about how amazed they were that he could handball as effectively as he could punt.

Barassi was incredibly important in those days because he influenced so many teams... he was still a legend at Melbourne, became one at Carlton, then became one at North Melbourne when he led them to their first premiership as their coach.

Interestingly, even North's brownlow medalist Keith Greig would drop kick in the 1970s... but the evolution of the game, the increased speed, the lack of efficiency, etc would make it very difficult to do that. Indeed, nowadays, you sometimes see someone drop the ball, it bounces once, they kick it ... which in the old days would be called a drop kick... and they are pinged for holding the ball.

[asiu]

a little off tangent

the first 'great leap forward' in footy tactics was claimed by which side ?

10 years after joining the vfa , this club claimed 'discovery' and then integrated into their style of play the stab pass

(the playing group were in tassy when they 'discovered' it though)


more clues ....

they played their first ever game in the vfa against us
(we smashed em )

their original colours pre vfa days were red white and blue





and another point for their original name

[doggerel]

Is it correct to say that the drop-kick is now illegal? i.e. that the umpire would pay incorrect disposal for dropping the ball?

When was the last time anyone saw a legit drop-kick? I really can;t remember one in 30 odd years of watching footy.

[Beej]

Is it correct to say that the drop-kick is now illegal? i.e. that the umpire would pay incorrect disposal for dropping the ball?

When was the last time anyone saw a legit drop-kick? I really can;t remember one in 30 odd years of watching footy.

I can't remember the name of the player now but I recall last year a player running into an open goal and opting for the drop kick.

Lloyd won goal of the year with a back-heeled drop-kick, if that counts.