Contested BALL?

[sax]

Just wondering what other people's oppinions are on this.
A lot has been documented.
We didn't lose contested posession in the first 11 rounds, since then we have won 5, lost 5.
Blues -14
Tigers +1
Cats -12
Eagles +2
Crows +17
Dogs +19
Swans -15
Hawks +5
Dons -28
Roos -23

As you can see a few in there, (Tigers, Eagles and Hawks) we've only just won.

My thoughts on this are our contested posession count has been down since Luke Ball has been out of touch or out of the side.

AND, it was WRONG to rest 7 players in the same week, then make 8 changes the next. It has unsettled the side, it's flirting with form, call it what you like, but look at Geelong, they're 4 and 4 since they did it, we're 1 and 2.
Hopefully the boys can turn it around VERY quickly!!

[groupie1]

We've lost contested ball the last 4 games:
Ball out for 3
Hayes out for 2
Jones out for 1
McQ out for 1
Montagna out for 1

Our year's top contested ball getters in order: Montagna, Hayes, Ball, Jones, McQ.

[perfectionist]

...My thoughts on this are our contested posession count has been down since Luke Ball has been out of touch or out of the side...

I agree. Luke Ball was in good form up to and including round 12 (Carlton) where he collected coaches votes. That was the split round. After that, he seemed to have difficulty finding the ball and then running to the next contest. His time on ground had not been great all year, around 50%, but he certainly maintained that pressure that we see from Lenny for a greater period of time.

I thought he must have been injured (like others), but we have been assured that he was not. So, who knows? The reality is that when he performs the type of job he did in the first half of the season, our contested ball stats can only go up.

[bigcarl]

Swans -15
Hawks +5
Dons -28
Roos -23

haven't always been his biggest fan, but this says to me that ball must play.

the swans, dons and roos games (all of which he missed) are our three worst contested ball games of the season.

ball must play (along with lenny of course).

[bigcarl]

AND, it was WRONG to rest 7 players in the same week, then make 8 changes the next. It has unsettled the side, it's flirting with form, call it what you like, but look at Geelong, they're 4 and 4 since they did it, we're 1 and 2.

well it seemed like a good idea at the time and may still show benefits. but, yes, momentum is everything. hopefully we gain some this sunday.

[perfectionist]

AND, it was WRONG to rest 7 players in the same week, then make 8 changes the next. It has unsettled the side, it's flirting with form, call it what you like, but look at Geelong, they're 4 and 4 since they did it, we're 1 and 2.

well it seemed like a good idea at the time and may still show benefits. but, yes, momentum is everything. hopefully we gain some this sunday.

Certainly no criticism after round 19. Perhaps we should have rested the players for two weeks!

[Beej]

Competitiveness is down.

Hardness is down.

Intensity is down.

Desperation is down.

Here's hoping all will make a swift return when there's actually something on the line.

[bigcarl]

We've lost contested ball the last 4 games:
Ball out for 3
Hayes out for 2
Jones out for 1
McQ out for 1
Montagna out for 1

Our year's top contested ball getters in order: Montagna, Hayes, Ball, Jones, McQ.

so if bally and hayes come back in it's problem solved ... maybe

[Teflon]

Dont think the problem can be magically solved (nor should it be) by just inserting Ball/Hayes - if thats the case whats the rest doing?

Hawks game proved 1 thing - IF players want it bad enough they will contest...if they don't they wilt.

How much of it is mental conditioning? being "up" for the contest?

IMHO Your personnell aka Ball/Hayes give you the best chance but this season we've defined pressure as a TEAM effort....not reliant on 2 players (thats old St Kilda...almost RF type saints stuff...).

IF we play finals with that attitude oppo sides will shut Hayes/Ball out and goodnight Saints.

We are more than that.

[bigcarl]

Dont think the problem can be magically solved (nor should it be) by just inserting Ball/Hayes - if thats the case whats the rest doing?

Hawks game proved 1 thing - IF players want it bad enough they will contest...if they don't they wilt.

How much of it is mental conditioning? being "up" for the contest?

IMHO Your personnell aka Ball/Hayes give you the best chance but this season we've defined pressure as a TEAM effort....not reliant on 2 players (thats old St Kilda...almost RF type saints stuff...).

IF we play finals with that attitude oppo sides will shut Hayes/Ball out and goodnight Saints.

We are more than that.

i think we can get away with it without one of them, but not both.

however the record shows we've played our best football with both in the team.

[rodgerfox]

Dont think the problem can be magically solved (nor should it be) by just inserting Ball/Hayes - if thats the case whats the rest doing?

Hawks game proved 1 thing - IF players want it bad enough they will contest...if they don't they wilt.

How much of it is mental conditioning? being "up" for the contest?

IMHO Your personnell aka Ball/Hayes give you the best chance but this season we've defined pressure as a TEAM effort....not reliant on 2 players (thats old St Kilda...almost RF type saints stuff...).

IF we play finals with that attitude oppo sides will shut Hayes/Ball out and goodnight Saints.

We are more than that.

But won't the new tactical genius coach, our game plan, the new modern footy department, or the rookies, or all this other cool stuff fix it?

You're not saying that success is based on having good players and getting them to put in 100% effort are you?

[marksnsparks]

Competitiveness is down.

Hardness is down.

Intensity is down.

Desperation is down.

Here's hoping all will make a swift return when there's actually something on the line.

Let's get a grip. Over the last 2 weeks:

Importance of the game is down.

Need to win is down.

Opponent need to win is up. (to make the 8, stay on Roos list)


Let's see how the boys play in 2 weeks beofre we hang them out to dry...

[groupie1]

I like how I write statistics here to make a point and someone says 'so you shove Ball & Hayes back in and like 'magic' we'll be OK.'

no, dude... you shove Ball & Hayes back in and, like statistics, contested possessions improve.


Anyway, my only point here is simply a defense for selecting Luke Ball. He will be exposed against WB and the Pies for lack of pace, but is vital against the Cats at least, and statistically speaking, is an important component of the contested possession pressure we put on teams. I think you play him if you think you can afford to cover for his lack of pace. Against definitely Geelong, you wanna play him.

[bigcarl]

I like how I write statistics here to make a point and someone says 'so you shove Ball & Hayes back in and like 'magic' we'll be OK'

i said maybe it will be problem solved.

tbh i thought our biggest problem on sunday was converting. we had many more inside 50s than them and five more shots at goal, but still lost.

[saintsRrising]

on having good players ?

Good to see that you are starting to see the importance of list management .

[saintsRrising]

***If it was only a matter of getting all your players on the field...why have the Saints only won one flag in a 100 years?


*** Why at times this year have various eminent people stated that aspects of the St Kilda performance were the best by a team EVER!!!

*** Certainly some the football I have seen the Saints play this year is the BEST football I have ever sen from any St Kilda team, or any other team for that matter.

*** Why do very good players such as Riewoldt credit Lyon for improving them?

I think that there is only one person that does not want to credit Lyon with the credit he deserves for IMPROVING the Saints.


The benefit that Lyon has brought is multi-faceted. It includes HOW the Saints are playing BOTH indiviadually and as a TEAM, WHO is playing and how OFTEN our good players can get on the park.

[timclark27]

I had some very interesting news from a source close to the club before the season even started. This was based on the problems with injuries over the previous couple of years.
The plan was that they were going to go all out for the first half of the year, then ease off before increasing the intensity in the lead up to the finals. This was to try and assure a top 4 finish but minimise the pressure of injuries.
You read into it what you will.

[Teflon]

Dont think the problem can be magically solved (nor should it be) by just inserting Ball/Hayes - if thats the case whats the rest doing?

Hawks game proved 1 thing - IF players want it bad enough they will contest...if they don't they wilt.

How much of it is mental conditioning? being "up" for the contest?

IMHO Your personnell aka Ball/Hayes give you the best chance but this season we've defined pressure as a TEAM effort....not reliant on 2 players (thats old St Kilda...almost RF type saints stuff...).

IF we play finals with that attitude oppo sides will shut Hayes/Ball out and goodnight Saints.

We are more than that.

But won't the new tactical genius coach, our game plan, the new modern footy department, or the rookies, or all this other cool stuff fix it?

You're not saying that success is based on having good players and getting them to put in 100% effort are you?

whats a "good"player?
Whose a "good"player?
When is a "good player" NOT a "good player"
What does a "good" player have to do to become an even "better"player?

All these and more asked again and never answered in the "Pox report".

[saintsRrising]

Tis meant to be a miracle..win the flag the RF way...

Good players just appear.....no coach needed to develop players into good players...and no recruiters needed to find them either...evidently one year they just all miraculously gather.


They just evidently appear en-masse one evidently as a reverse-Lemmings Effect.

Then as a another miracle in the reverse-Lemming year they are all fit at well.

The third miracle is that they just all gel with some bee-hive shared purpose where tactics just happen by instinct.

Evidently this is why for example that Roo now applies forward pressure rather than leaving it to his team-mates.

He does it because it was meant to be all driven by the reverse_Lemming effect.

I mean what dill could possibly think that the changed way in which Roo now plays is due to a coach. Geeze how ridiculous.