We need one of Raph or Gwilt

[meher baba]

Look, I know that Gwilt isn't (and will probably never become) a superstar.

And I know Raph has played pretty poorly this season (other than in the second quarter of our round 1 game).

But I reckon we need one of them to come back into the team for the rest of the season. Probably for Zac, with Blake next in line (but I reckon it has to be Zac).

I know that the 22 who played against the Blues all had thoroughly earned their senior spots. But, for mine, the structure doesn't work.

Max, the two Sams, Baker and Ray (or similar types of players) are all essential players down back IMO. On top of that group, we need a CHB: for mine this role should be played by one of Zac or Blake. Having them both down back denies us another running player: and we definitely need another one, particularly against the Cats.

We saw how Carlton were able to keep Sam Fisher out of the game while BJ was spending a lot of time forward. That left Gilbert as our main attacking weapon out of our back 50, and he couldn't do it on his own.

Raph for Zac is the obvious solution, with BJ remaining up forward. Otherwise, put BJ down back and bring back Gwilt as the third forward.

Like others, I don't believe that Gilbert up forward is the answer to anything. Nor Sam Fisher. Zac Dawson could possibly fill in for Kosi, but I don't think he can do the job that Gwilt was doing. BJ definitely can, but then - as I have suggested - we need Raph down back.

In the long run, Lynch may well be better than Gwilt, but is now the time.

I hear a lot about Dempster's qualities on here, but he has always been a low possession stopper (look at his stats) and I'm far from certain that he can do what Raph can do. However, he will undoubtedly be pushing Baker and Ray for their spots.

I know that the idea of dropping Zac will bring howls from many on here. But, if we are going to beat the Cats, Hawks and Doggies in the next couple of months, getting the structure right is going to be critically important.

Comments....?

[Beekay]

This is not much of a contribution..

.. but Zac will not be dropped.

It would take him being smashed by an opponent at least 2 weeks in a row.. and I just don't see that happening.

I am all for wanting Raph Clarke in form in the team ... that is for sure.

Gotta keep the future rolling and Zac is a big part of it.

[Legendary]

I agree with your point that we have a structural problem, and it needs to be fixed.

However, not sure I agree with the proposed solution.

IMO Zac has out-performed Blake this year, and I would be dropping Blake ahead of Zac to fix the structural problem. I am not a "Blake-hater", and I am purely basing this on what I have seen with my own eyes at the footy this year.

However, that is a matter of debate and opinion ... it's clear that one of those players (or McEvoy, with Blake moving into the ruck) has to go.

If Raph can demonstrate a couple of weeks of good form in the VFL, then he will push hard for a recall ... but he dropped off badly in his last couple of games in the seniors ...

It's a tough one.

[borderbarry]

What position is Zac actually holding down at the moment? Is he taking 1st, 2nd, 3rd, best forward? I dont remember him spending any time on Fev last match.

[thirty-seven!?]

Yeah, good post...

I can definitely see the benefit in these two options...

And agree that the structure seemed a little off the past few weeks - we often have one of Blake or Zac swinging forward, or moving to a wing, which isnt bad, but the question is, do we have someone better suited, like Raph

Personally, i dont want to see Zac dropped, and agree with Beekay that he wont... Blake has always been a trier, and is often strangely critcisized for this - i think he is a real positive to have in the team with his ability to play anywhere.

We do have Geary there as a player who can play that sweeping role off HB, whist also taking a man... he has been fantastic in the first half of the season, but the past two weeks he has looked tired and his game time has been down...

Do we maybe swap him for a player like Raph? Raph can surely play that role - but the question is whether he will do it well, judging by his past two performances! But like everyone else of here, its hard not to think back to his game against Collingwood in the finals... he was sublime!

I am all for bringing in Dempster - but not until he is ready! He may be a low possession winner, but he kicks the ball well and long - very similar to BJ. If given a more offensive role, i think he could play fantastic in it!

This would mean three 'go to' guys off half back - Fisher, Gilbo and one of Dempster or Raph... i like! Also, all three are more than capable of minding their own man as well!

[barks4eva]

Look, I know that Gwilt isn't (and will probably never become) a superstar.

And I know Raph has played pretty poorly this season (other than in the second quarter of our round 1 game).

But I reckon we need one of them to come back into the team for the rest of the season. Probably for Zac, with Blake next in line (but I reckon it has to be Zac).

I know that the 22 who played against the Blues all had thoroughly earned their senior spots. But, for mine, the structure doesn't work.

Max, the two Sams, Baker and Ray (or similar types of players) are all essential players down back IMO. On top of that group, we need a CHB: for mine this role should be played by one of Zac or Blake. Having them both down back denies us another running player: and we definitely need another one, particularly against the Cats.

We saw how Carlton were able to keep Sam Fisher out of the game while BJ was spending a lot of time forward. That left Gilbert as our main attacking weapon out of our back 50, and he couldn't do it on his own.

Raph for Zac is the obvious solution, with BJ remaining up forward. Otherwise, put BJ down back and bring back Gwilt as the third forward.

Like others, I don't believe that Gilbert up forward is the answer to anything. Nor Sam Fisher. Zac Dawson could possibly fill in for Kosi, but I don't think he can do the job that Gwilt was doing. BJ definitely can, but then - as I have suggested - we need Raph down back.

In the long run, Lynch may well be better than Gwilt, but is now the time.

I hear a lot about Dempster's qualities on here, but he has always been a low possession stopper (look at his stats) and I'm far from certain that he can do what Raph can do. However, he will undoubtedly be pushing Baker and Ray for their spots.

I know that the idea of dropping Zac will bring howls from many on here. But, if we are going to beat the Cats, Hawks and Doggies in the next couple of months, getting the structure right is going to be critically important.

Comments....?

Zac has been absolutely brilliant all year, a revelation, automatic selection for mine,

Considering you wanted Lyon sacked this time last year and replaced with Rendell, it's very hard to take anything you say seriously,
me babble your buffoonery knows no limits,
"Sack Lyon, he's a dinosaur, a Sydney clone, a clown, an imposter, we should never have sacked Grant, appoint Rendell as senior coach, yada yada, blah blah blah, etc...etc..."
FAIR DINKUM
and now for the latest installment of your dumbed down, dingbat, dung dump drivel, seriously are you trolling?, are you on drugs?........ I think not, the answer is quite obvious, you're merely a numbnutted, nit witted, nuff nuff, a genuine real McCoy goofball who knows SFA about all matters, football.

[sainterjo]

[ dumbed down, dingbat, dung dump drivel

Nice alliteration there, b4e. I'll see your 'drivel' and raise you a daylight's dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon

[markp]

I still have faith that Gwilt and Raph will come good.... but Zac is a gun and should stay in the side.

[SainterK]

What position is Zac actually holding down at the moment? Is he taking 1st, 2nd, 3rd, best forward? I dont remember him spending any time on Fev last match.

Are you implying that he hasn't taken a 1st or 2nd forward, or are you just referring to last week?

[InkerSaint]

You'll get howls all right...

Let me get this straight: You want to drop one of: Mister 91%, the deadliest kick in the league and the kid who kicked the matchwinning goal against Carlton.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 72,00.html

Or, the guy at no. 9 for marks this year, and third only to Riewoldt and Fisher in the team.

It doesn't occur to you how these skills might be vital in our defensive play?

Max's return appears to have created a structure problem. I agree there appeared to be a lack of forward pressure last week. And I'd love to get both Gwilt and Clarke back in the team. But who do you drop? We already have our best 22 on the park.

[Beno88]

I don't agree with much there.

Raph Clarke has now had several shots at cementing himself in the best 22, I thought he had finally done it at the end of last year. However his form this year has been a decent step backwards. He is an important part of our depth, but he is not in our best 25, let alone 22. His potential is obvious, but you don't win games on potential.

Gwilt has been a solid contributor at times this year and was stiff to lose his spot. However there is no player currently in the side who deserves a spot less than Gwilt. As with Raph, Gwilt helps to create great depth at St.Kilda but he is not among the best 22, regardless of the role he is playing.

Zac Dawson is strange choice as the first to make way. Zac has been one of our most consistant contributors. He has very rarely been beaten. He has done good jobs on many key forwards, and to answer the question above, he did spend time on Fevola, and kept him goaless. Dawson would be considered at All-Australian selection if the season stopped now and rightly so. To think he could be dropped is absolutely absurd. Dawson has the highest disposal efficiency of any player in the entire competition. That is invaluable on the last line of defence.

Jason Blake is also a hugely important part of the St.Kilda side. He offers flexibilty, strength and efficiency. Like Dawson, he ranks in the top 5 for disposal efficiency in the comp. He is also very highly ranked for marks from opposition kicks, an unlike your Corey Enrights and Brian Lakes, these are quite often contested. If St.Kilda are lucky enough to make the Grand Final, Jason Blake will be one of the first selected.

And suggestions of Baker or Ray making room for Dempster are ridiculous. It would be great to see Dempster back in the side, but the bloke is just beginning to play the game again, he is nowhere near being able to slot into a side that is 12-0. It doesn't work that easily. Just ask Matt Maguire and Robert Eddy.

There is nothing wrong with St.Kilda's structure and their is certainly nothing wrong with the defence. One of St.Kilda's great strengths in 2009 has been stability. Why do we want to change that?

[older saint]

Once again change for change sake.

Poor argument when dropping arguably a top 5 in B 7 F this year so far (Dawson) for a name and reputation player. It's like this ongoing call for Maguire to come back for anyone from Blake through to Baker.

Reputation and names mean nothing this is why we are doing so well for a change. Its sounds like the Australian Selectors wantng to play Brett Lee and Symonds and that has worked well .

[aussiejones]

The point is we conceeded quite a few goals last week for whatever reason : midfield or backs

Luck with injuries and the success of Zac together with the return of Max and a good effort by Bakes leaves us with a dilemma. The impending return of Demster and Maguire some time soon exaserbates the dilemma. Too many guys for too few spots.

The only suggestion is to objectively look at individual strengths and current form of each and their matchups a game at a time and select accordingly ....irrespective of other factors.


Finally how necessary is it to have a set half back and back line each week ?

[jonesy]

Zac- first 18

Raph- List clogger,injury crisis selection only

Gwilt-51% for 49% against,sometimes it's the other way around

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Always admire the willingness of MB to say what he thinks regardless of knowing in advance the knee-jerk responses he's likely to receive.

In which vein I not ahead of time that I do not think Dawson should be dropped... but I won't be shocked if it happens.

But seriously folks, if you have a good hard think about how to get the most out of the Saints, you need to at least contemplate the possibility of Dawson being dropped. You also need to contemplate the possibility of it being Gwilt or Raph that replaces him. While at 12-0, it's easiest of course to just look at rearranging deckchairs, making possible like for like changes - but ever since we brought in Max, we've changed the balance, so the question of balance is definitely front & center.

There's been a fair amount of contemplation recently that the backline is too tall/not good enough at ground level. The line being thrown around is that there's possibly only room for 2 of Max, Blake and Dawson... typically, this has preceded a call for Max to make way. Personally, I'd nominate Blake (who I'm a fan of, but the flexibility he presents is reduced in value when it hasn't been called on, and his form is simply not as good as it was in '08 - I think Dawson has passed him)... but Zac Dawson, as much of a revelation as he's been is NOT an automatic selection. If his main contribution is defensive and Max, Blake and Fisher are considered better defensively, then he's an obvious option. He's been good (and getting better every week) offensively, but is the contribution going to outweigh a running ground level player's? probably not.

It's interesting that he was thrown forward late in the Carlton game... the best option, or the guy who can be most easily spared? Again the question, is he the best available for that job? Probably not.

So, if we were to decide:
1) That the defense was "too tall", then the players under consideration are Dawson, Hudghton and Blake.
2) We decide we want to change the balance, and there are better ground level options, better running options, better forward options.

Then it's quite reasonable to suggest that Raph or Gwilt (among others) might come in for Dawson.

[jonesy]

Reasonable to suggest Zac is dropped???!!!
No, it is NOT reasonable,it is plain LUNACY!!!

91% kicking effieciency,highest in the league. Was an integral part of the first 9 rounds record breaking defence. The tightest defence the game has ever seen in it's history. Yet,some of you people,want to drop one of the revelations of this tight ass backline! What's more,some of you are suggesting we drop this revealtion for Raph Clarke??? To steal a phrase,FAIR DINKUM!

This guy is no good,plain and simple. He has had chance after chance,apart from 3 good games at the end of the year,his time in the one's has been littered with mistakes,costly mistakes,and countless horrible games. Ask any other clubs supporters and 80% of our supporters what they think of Raph Clarke.
Some will laugh,or the saints supporters usually just shake there head. This forum needs to get over it's obsession with Raph Clarke,especially if it's in preference to Zac 'the revelation' Dawson

[saintsRrising]

.

And I know Raph has played pretty poorly this season (other than in the second quarter of our round 1 game).


Comments....?

Why would you select an out of form player when you have more than 22 in-form players to choose from?

Note that the Cats have recently left out out of form players in favour of in-form players. One of there in-form ins kicked 5 goals against Freo and won them the game.

So Raph no....his Casey form has not been good enough to demand being selected.


As for Gwilt. Different situation. as Gwilt has not been poor like Raph. He has been ok..not good, but not bad. So one could see Gwilt being selected again on the HFF for structural reasons.

But who to leave out??? Now that is a hard one.

Maybe Geary should be givena run as HFF as he is lovely kick at goal?

[claystreet]

Look, I know that Gwilt isn't (and will probably never become) a superstar.

And I know Raph has played pretty poorly this season (other than in the second quarter of our round 1 game).

But I reckon we need one of them to come back into the team for the rest of the season. Probably for Zac, with Blake next in line (but I reckon it has to be Zac).

I read that much and no more because its dribble. You dont know nothing about nothing. I reckon your either a Shyte stirrer or a flog.

[bigcarl]

ross stopped short of guaranteeing mcevoy's spot in a recent interview, so it would not surprise me to see him out for structural reasons with Blake taking on second ruck duties.

We were possibly a tall too many against Carlton. Gwilt, Raph or even Lynch would be possible ins to play that third tall role or allow someone else to.

But who really knows? Once again it will be an interesting night at selection.

[Thinline]

Mate I didn't get past the 'drop Zac' bit.

That, with the greatest respect, is akin to saying the Cats will drop Scarlett because this week we don't want a full back who runs...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Reasonable to suggest Zac is dropped???!!!
No, it is NOT reasonable,it is plain LUNACY!!!

91% kicking effieciency,highest in the league. Was an integral part of the first 9 rounds record breaking defence. The tightest defence the game has ever seen in it's history. Yet,some of you people,want to drop one of the revelations of this tight ass backline! What's more,some of you are suggesting we drop this revealtion for Raph Clarke??? To steal a phrase,FAIR DINKUM!

Mate I didn't get past the 'drop Zac' bit.

That, with the greatest respect, is akin to saying the Cats will drop Scarlett because this week we don't want a full back who runs...

It's responses like the bolded that leave me with respect for thought out ideas against the grain like the OP.

Dropping Dawson akin to dropping Scarlett? Scarlett is one of the short list of defenders who you're comfortable with against any key forward in the comp - Glass and Max being the other two. Scarlett is also the best rebounding fullback going round... the defense of Max, the rebound of Gilbert, and the marking of Fisher, that's Matthew Scarlett.

Some perspective on the stats - Dawson's efficiency (91.72 according to afl.com) is ridiculously good... it's also strongly affected by him always taking the safe option. In fact, when double checking the stats, the guy who I would have considered dropping in Dawson's place that astounded me even more was Jason Blake - 88% eff, 7 I50 and 17R50. Blake's never been the greatest disposal, but the inside 50s (Zac has 2) say he's doing some damage as well as linking up. If we look at clangers and frees against, Dawson's lower in both... but probably expectable, given the scenario. FWIW, after only 2 games, Max has yet to count himself out of this hit-a-target-fest with a DE of 92.86... again, we're not exactly talking about a guy pinpointing the FF amidst a flood, and frankly getting those numbers out of Blake and Max suggests the team's very good at providing easy options rather than any of them being superb playmakers.

We can absolutely guarantee that if Zac spends much time up front, that amazing number is going to fall off a cliff, and amazing as it is, in context of the group of players we're talking about, it doesn't make the decision for us.

Zac's been a revelation, but this is not what would be pressuring his spot.
Nor would the pressure be coming from Raph or Gwilt (or insert player x) individually.
It would be coming from team balance.

Dawson v Blake v Hudghton - is there room for all 3, or are we better off with a midsize forward or running defender?

For the time being, bigcarl's option makes more sense to me - move Blake into 2nd ruck and drop McEvoy if we want a change of balance... but that probably only delays the debate rather than solving it.

[Con Gorozidis]

No idea. But the chance of the zac attack being dropped anytime in the next 4 weeks is 0.

hes playing well and most importantly in todays footy - he can kick. last thing we need is somone turning it over.

i reckon geary could be due for a rest soon. looks tired which is fair enough for a young guy at this time of year. no biggy.

[St DAC]

One possible solution is to play Blake as the 3rd tall, a lead-up forward. He is mobile, has a huge tank, runs well, can take a grab. His goal kicking over the past couple of seasons has been quite sound as well. Having him in the side in this role still allows his renowned positional flexibility to be utilised if required by injury during a game, while restructuring the back 6 to be a little smaller as has been suggested by several posters.

Win/Win for mine.

[Batnoe]

Zac has been playing well.


I would rest Blake although he seems to have picked up his disposal- he does however give away a lot of soft frees and doesnt use his body for strength, instead he uses his hands

I would love to see Raph or Maguire or Lynch in the forward line.

[plugger66]

Zac has been playing well.


I would rest Blake although he seems to have picked up his disposal- he does however give away a lot of soft frees and doesnt use his body for strength, instead he uses his hands

I would love to see Raph or Maguire or Lynch in the forward line.

Why would you rest Blake. He is either dropped or stays in the side.