Our list management has been outstanding since Lyon started

[James]

Dawson, Begley, Ray, Dempster, Schneider, King, Birss, Gardiner have all been quality pickups from other clubs. The only one off that list that isn't with us today is Birss and I'm still unhappy that the choice to axe him was made - he was a quality player.

Our drafting has been top notch, especially the rookies we signed prior to 2007 - Geary, Eddy, Jones and Attard have all been massive inclusions to the side. Attard was a solid performer in 2007 only lost his place due to an untimely knee injury. The other three will be great players for us for years to come.

The end of 2008 cleanout was definitely needed. Our list was full of absolute dead wood and cutting that out has given a heads up to the rest to do their bit properly - a great contribution to our side's competitiveness. The draft has also been a great injection of youth and talent.

Our drafting has kept our side in line and addressed our weaknesses. We have a very good tall forward coming through in Lynch. Two rucks in McEvoy and Stanley that could very well be the premier ruck combo of the 2010's - akin to Lade/Brogan this decade.

And now players like Armitage, Begley, F. Fisher and Gram have to sit out and miss games, due to the even qualities of our list. That's an amazing position to be in. Particularily Begley, who was a clever pickup. Injuries only thwarted his rise and he was and is only going to continue to improve as he gets more experience in AFL. Was highly regarded at Brisbane. Picking up players like Dempster and Ray is just cheeky. As the 22nd man on field or last selected midfielder, these two have been more than serviceable. It's truly remarkable.

At the end of this year they'll continue to shake it up. This list management has already guaranteed us a nice few years at the top and a good chance at a flag. Kudos is due.

[saintly]

i think the saints drafting has thought out the impact from the gold coast.

ie the long lit of rookies. we won't get stars for the next 3-5 years. the saints needed to bring along a new bunch of kids somehow and they are in the [rocess of doing this via the rookie list.

[James]

Armitage is delicious trade bait for GC17 as well.

[plugger66]

Armitage is delicious trade bait for GC17 as well.

Thanks Bruce.

[Saintschampions08]

Getting ahead of ourselves?

Comparing McEvoy and Stanley to Brogan and Lade in a few years...gee, i seem to remember a number of people comparing Dal and Ian Stewart a few years ago...didn't exactly happen did it?

Attard was a terrible player, didn't deserve to play as many games as he did but due to a terrible injury list and a poorly performing team he did. He had terrible skills, poor decision making and a light frame.

Birss was alright, but had a number of key deficiencies...can't see who he'd even get close to replacing in our current team, and their would be a number of other players ahead of him in the reserves.

[True Blue Sainter]

You mention that Begley was highly rated at Brisbane - if so, why did they de-list him?

[Thinline]

Armitage is delicious trade bait for GC17 as well.

Thanks Bruce.

[Legendary]

You mention that Begley was highly rated at Brisbane - if so, why did they de-list him?

Leigh Matthews rated him pretty highly, but Voss did not see it the same way.

[Beno88]

Charlie Gardiner was probably his only real blemish. But I suppose he was part of the deal to get King.

[marksnsparks]

Charlie Gardiner was probably his only real blemish. But I suppose he was part of the deal to get King.

Remember Gardiner was picked up for nothing and he was an adequate gap filler for a season.

[James]

You mention that Begley was highly rated at Brisbane - if so, why did they de-list him?

He dropped out of the side due to injury and Brisbane weren't stuffed to continue with him.

As for Birss, he wouldn't be getting a game this year so far, but he'd be handy to have around as depth. You can never have enough quality midfielders.

[meher baba]

I can't imagine why I want to get drawn into this debate for the umpteen thousandth time. But here goes.

Yes we have got better value out of recycled players since 2006 than we did before this. Gardiner is the A grade standout: a once-great player written off by almost everyone (including me) who has come good big-time. The rest are a mixture of the B+ grade - Dawson (although he might ultimately turn out to be A grade), King, Schneider, Dempster, Ray - and the B- or worse: M Clarke, C Gardiner, Birss, Attard and (probably) Begley. It's a mixed result, but cerrtainly better than the GT era in which really only Guerra (for a while) and Gram could be said to have been reasonable pick ups, Knobel and Ackland were B- at best, and McGough, Brooks, Watts, etc. were wastes of draft picks (albeit that the careers of Brooks and Watts were cruelled by injury).

As for draft picks: who can really say if we have done well or not? So far, none of the 11 kids we have picked up in the regular draft (ie, excluding Begley) have established themselves at AFL level. Armo, McEvoy and Allen (for the brief time that he wasn't injured) have shown some signs, but hardly seem to be Cyril Riolis in the making. The rest have spent their time running around in the VFL.

The OP suggests that Armo might be "trade bait" to the Gold Coast. Well, perhaps, but - on the basis of what he's achieved so far - I'd be far from certain that we'd get offered anything much better than a middle second round pick for him. I reckon we could get better than that for Zac Dawson right now!!

As time moves on, the last few years of drafting under GT (ie, after we stopped getting priority picks) is looking better and better, producing: Raph, Chips, McQualter, Gwilt and Gilbert. So I think the jury is out on this aspect of our "list management" since 2006.

Of course, the "rookies" are the stand-out success story under Lyon. Three of them are "pseudo-rookies": experienced AFL players in Attard, Dawson and McQualter and a long-established WAFL player in Jones whose feet virtually didn't touch the ground in the VFL before they were elevated. But Eddy and Geary are old-style rookies, and I reckon Geary has the makings of a 200 gamer. Miles is possibly also a good 'un (although I'm still not really sure where he is going to play).

The other good aspect of list management under Lyon has involved the amount of delisting/relegation to the rookie list/possible encouragement to retire. We have seen a heap of players leave the club (or our senior list), and the only one I reckon we might have done well to keep was TS40. Perhaps not all the new blood has worked out well, but the high turnover seems to be proving to be a good idea.

The ability to use the expanded rookie list as a sort of repercharge system is particularly helpful. It sent a great message to McQualter and will probably come into its own at the end of this season when (gulp) we probably need to remove 5 more players from our senior list (3 for the draft and 2 more for the elevation Dawson and Miles). We will be in a position to think about redrafting Steven and Connor and perhaps Allen on the rookie list to clear some space (even then, we will need Max to retire and some sort of delisting - I hope it isn't X - to make space for 5).

Anyway, I do think that list management is going well, but I also think that it is too early to judge many of the new players brought in since 2006.

[meher baba]

As for Birss, he wouldn't be getting a game this year so far, but he'd be handy to have around as depth. You can never have enough quality midfielders.

Are these two sentences meant to be related in some way? Personally, I can't see how.

[joffaboy]

As for Birss, he wouldn't be getting a game this year so far, but he'd be handy to have around as depth. You can never have enough quality midfielders.

Are these two sentences meant to be related in some way? Personally, I can't see how.

Its from the same bloke who reckoned that Armo was a worldbeater in one thread but then reckons he is tradebait for GC17 in this thread

the guy logged on yesterday has about 50 posts and is coming out with outrageous comments.

All the hallmarks of the Essendon supporting troll Nexus.

Must have worked his way around the IP ban somehow.

[Saintschampions08]

As for Birss, he wouldn't be getting a game this year so far, but he'd be handy to have around as depth. You can never have enough quality midfielders.

Are these two sentences meant to be related in some way? Personally, I can't see how.

Birss was nothing close to a quality midfielder.

[goodie]

The ability to use the expanded rookie list as a sort of repercharge system is particularly helpful. It sent a great message to McQualter and will probably come into its own at the end of this season when (gulp) we probably need to remove 5 more players from our senior list (3 for the draft and 2 more for the elevation Dawson and Miles). We will be in a position to think about redrafting Steven and Connor and perhaps Allen on the rookie list to clear some space (even then, we will need Max to retire and some sort of delisting - I hope it isn't X - to make space for 5).

Problem with that concept is there is no way to just move them onto the rookie list, we'd have to delist and then wait through the national and rookie drafts. Steven certainly wouldn't make it through to the rookie draft, and Allen and Connors could easily be snapped up before our selection

[James]

The only one off the top of my head that will be fighting for his spot on the list at the end of the year at this rate is Leigh Fisher. I hate to say this cause I liked watching him and his hard, nuggety style, but there really isn't any role he can play in our side any more.

And Joffaboy, calm the hell down. I'm no Essendon troll. I was just enthusiastic to see Armitage play because I believe he has good talent. On the other hand I understand he hasn't put a lot of effort in but regardless of that GC17 will be keen to pick up anyone they can and Armitage will be in his prime when they come around. They'll offer quite a lot for him, I imagine. For not doing much he has quite the reputation - GC17 would have him earmarked as an ideal pickup.

[Legendary]

That was a very balanced and fair post, meher baba ... quite an accurate summation of the list, recruiting and what has actually been proved, as opposed to "potential".

I particularly agree with your point about turnover.

[saintsRrising]

Of course, the "rookies" are the stand-out success story under Lyon. Three of them are "pseudo-rookies": experienced AFL players in Attard, Dawson and McQualter and a long-established WAFL player in Jones whose feet virtually didn't touch the ground in the VFL before they were elevated.

What does it matter where they came from??

Point is we are doing it better...point is we are now selecting rookies with a higher potential to make it and then we are developing them better.

Previously we rookied lots of players from other Clubs...ie Murray, Stone ...some Collingwood Players I don't remember....etc etc..

Only Milne an ex-Don was any good. After Milne all those others accounted to naught..and from the supposedly "genuine" rookies only Moyle game us a reasonable number of games.

After Morle we had rokies every year..but gained very little from it.

Rookies are rookies...does not matter whether they are 18 or 22...whether they have played AFL , WAFL, VFL or wherever.....only thing that matters is do they have the potential to be developed into an AFL level player in a niche that we lack.

Identification is going very well.

Both Attard and Dawson were able to play straight away.....and our present football department have been using the rookie sustem materfully to not only look todays need (ie a back up full back such as Zac) but also for our future needs (ie Choo Choo or McGrath...or Beary who was young but has now arrived).

[Milton66]

I can't imagine why I want to get drawn into this debate for the umpteen thousandth time. But here goes.

Why? I imagine that the thread title would be like a red rag to bull for someone like you.

[saintsRrising]

As time moves on, the last few years of drafting under GT (ie, after we stopped getting priority picks) is looking better and better, producing: Raph, Chips, McQualter, Gwilt and Gilbert. So I think the jury is out on this aspect of our "list management" since 2006.
.

Mini is a classic example. A young player that was initially poorly handled and not developed properly.

It makes you wonder how great our list could have been had we not been mismanaged for so many years.

Better list management is not driving your list into the ground so that careers are ruined or greatly impaired. Hamill might even still be trundling around and X and Ralph would probably have another 20-50 games.

Long is the list of players with shocking injury record from being poorly manged. Coincidence? I think not.

List management is not frittering away draft picks on overpriced trades.

Comparing the trades done under GT to those done under Lyon is stark.

When you look at our list and consider all the bungled trades how good would our list now be if our trading of the last several years been the norm?? That is not getting all your deals 100% right..as that will not happen...but getting more right than wrong such as we now do is very very nice.

[James]

Spot on, Saintsrising. Absolutely spot on.

Lyon and co. are doing an amazing job down there. Surely they'll deliver a flag in the next three years. It will be the biggest failure ever of this club if they don't.

[Teflon]

Of course, the "rookies" are the stand-out success story under Lyon. Three of them are "pseudo-rookies": experienced AFL players in Attard, Dawson and McQualter and a long-established WAFL player in Jones whose feet virtually didn't touch the ground in the VFL before they were elevated.

What does it matter where they came from??

Point is we are doing it better...point is we are now selecting rookies with a higher potential to make it and then we are developing them better.

Previously we rookied lots of players from other Clubs...ie Murray, Stone ...some Collingwood Players I don't remember....etc etc..

Only Milne an ex-Don was any good. After Milne all those others accounted to naught..and from the supposedly "genuine" rookies only Moyle game us a reasonable number of games.

After Morle we had rokies every year..but gained very little from it.

Rookies are rookies...does not matter whether they are 18 or 22...whether they have played AFL , WAFL, VFL or wherever.....only thing that matters is do they have the potential to be developed into an AFL level player in a niche that we lack.

Identification is going very well.

Both Attard and Dawson were able to play straight away.....and our present football department have been using the rookie sustem materfully to not only look todays need (ie a back up full back such as Zac) but also for our future needs (ie Choo Choo or McGrath...or Beary who was young but has now arrived).

great post SR - its the selective categorisation MB attempts to somehow hopefully justify the GT post 06 era list management thats laughable.

List management has clearly improved perhaps more importantly list DEVELOPMENT appears to be far greater under Lyon - its a no brainer to see hes getting far more out of players many said shoulda been scrap heaped.

[Legendary]

If you actually read meher baba's post, it is quite balanced ... there is no implied criticism of either GT or RL ... it just goes through in quite a reasoned manner I think.

No reason to use it to further an agenda.

[saint patrick]

The comparison between Dal and Stewart were in terms of his poise and balance...while Dal was always going to suffer with comparison to the brilliant dual brownlow medalist I think we can say Dal is definitely an Elite player...who by the time he retires will create his own bit of history...

Just hope he goes down as a premiership player before he retires