2004, 2005 & 2008 compared

[perfectionist]

Perceptions are everything, some say. We finished third in 2004 and fourth in 2005 with an interstate trip week 1 of the finals in both years but this year, fourth with no travel!

I suppose the next couple of weeks will tell the tale.

[evertonfc]

That is true, but in 2004, we could have played Man Utd at Old Trafford and given them a good shake. We had a horrible finals draw and with an ounce of luck, could have won it.

In 2005 we weren't as good, but the cards fell our way. We failed to make the best of it.

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

As such, my expectations are a lot, lot lower. But I'm going to enjoy this finals series. I wasn't expecting to make top four; I wasn't expecting to be this close.

But hell, now we're here, this is no time to think about anything other than a 110% effort against Geelong on Sunday, even if - in my opinion - around 1/4 of our first-team wouldn't even crack their squad.

What we do have on our side are 'confidence' players who have the ability to rise to the occaision. For example, Gary Ablett is a better player than Jason Gram, but for some reason, I'd happily square them off against each other.

Ablett might have 28 touches and kick three, as might Gram, but his dashing runs, pace and verve gives the team an immeasurable boost. We look potent when he's up and about.

The same can be said for several others, too. We've got a chance.

Probably only 30%, but it's a chance. And you have to take it.

[saintm]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then North lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

[saintly]

you should also compare 2006.

[WayneJudson42]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then the Crows lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

Why a Bradbury??? Other teams had the opp to take 4th and FAILED ffs. We took ours. We didn't get it by default. If anything, Crows did also, but got pipped.

I can see the comparisons, but gee. IMO, Demons did a Bradbury in 06 against us.

These comparisons are starting to shyte me no-end.

F*** me.

[Armoooo]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then the Crows lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

Why a Bradbury??? Other teams had the opp to take 4th and FAILED ffs. We took ours. We didn't get it by default. If anything, Crows did also, but got pipped.

I can see the comparisons, but gee. IMO, Demons did a Bradbury in 06 against us.

These comparisons are starting to shyte me no-end.

F*** me.

Collingwood and Kangaroos both lost to bottom four teams, we should have had no chance of getting top 4, if the crows had of lost aswell we would have definitely been the new Bradbury, however we did have to earn it once it was their for the taking...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then the Crows lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

Why a Bradbury??? Other teams had the opp to take 4th and FAILED ffs. We took ours. We didn't get it by default. If anything, Crows did also, but got pipped.

I can see the comparisons, but gee. IMO, Demons did a Bradbury in 06 against us.

These comparisons are starting to shyte me no-end.

F*** me.

Seems an apt comparison to me: we were trailing a pack with the box seat, they all fell over, and we didn't. The oft-ignored area that Bradbury does deserve credit for was making the final - i.e. like us, he'd earned the chance to be the guy who followed through when everyone else went down. The other difference of course is that Bradbury got his stroke of luck in the final - ours just got us a good starting lane for the final.

The only difference is the Crows part - we still had someone we had to beat to get there in the end.

Just had a look, and the last time a team made top 4 with 13 wins was Collingwood in 2002. We shouldn't be too surprised that the world isn't overly impressed... though at the same time we should draw encouragement from the fact the last time there was a year as close as this one (2 teams on 11 missed in 2002) the top 4 advantage was decisive enough to make a grand final. Until I looked it up, I only recalled that Collingwood contested a 2nd grand final in 2002 after finishing top 4 - not that they were a 13 win top 4.

It's what happens in September that will dictate how this team is remembered, not what got us there. Bradbury still has his medal, and few remember the names of the guys who fell.

[saintm]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then the Crows lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

Why a Bradbury??? Other teams had the opp to take 4th and FAILED ffs. We took ours. We didn't get it by default. If anything, Crows did also, but got pipped.

I can see the comparisons, but gee. IMO, Demons did a Bradbury in 06 against us.

These comparisons are starting to shyte me no-end.

F*** me.

Was by no means denigrating the Saints effort or that of Bradbury - he was just the sporting analogy that came to mind - and I bet one or two journalists will also mention the comparison in the coming weeks.

As with everything in life you can only take the opportunities presented to you and the Saints and Steven Bradbury have definitely done that and Good Luck to them both!!

[St. Luke]

Win the next 12 quarters of football and we take the flag! Simple huh

[4ever_saint]

i think the big difference is that in 2004 and 2005 the premiership was seemingly anyones game. unfortunately, with geelong being such a stand out, it has seemed like the flag has been determined since round 1. we are lucky that the other two teams, hawthorn and bulldogs, have dropped off in form

one thing in our favour- we play geelong first up. which ensures, if things go our way, we wouldnt play them in the preliminary final

another interesting thing to note is that our players are all 3 years older. we were a young team back in 2004 and 2005 and with the experience they now have, hopefully they will make it all the way!

[Armoooo]

In 2008, we're not nearly as good, and have a playing list which compares poorly, but we've been granted a Steven Bradbury run.

Have been waiting to see who would be the first to mention Steven Bradbury, as he immediately sprang to mind as Collingwood and then the Crows lost.

Apologies if I have missed it in an earlier thread!!

Why a Bradbury??? Other teams had the opp to take 4th and FAILED ffs. We took ours. We didn't get it by default. If anything, Crows did also, but got pipped.

I can see the comparisons, but gee. IMO, Demons did a Bradbury in 06 against us.

These comparisons are starting to shyte me no-end.

F*** me.

The oft-ignored area that Bradbury does deserve credit for was making the final

IIRC he only got through because people a couple other blokes fell over in the semis and a couple of people got disqualified in the quarters...

[HarveysDeciple]

we won more games then 12 sides, and that's all that matters.

you never finish in a position you don't deserve and we earnt this.

Go for it saints.

[jonesy]

We finished 4th,won more- better % than the others,simple as that.

We were very fortunate the last 8-10 weeks though,you can't dispute that,if you do the rose coloured glasses are obviously in full swing. We played a lot of sides that were severely depleted on the run home. Having said all this,it's about time we got some luck.....well and truly overdue.

I look forward to the series,I have no expectations at all, it's just great to be there,as after the bulldogs game 2 months ago i would of said we'd finish 12-13th. Things looked very grim at that stage, we looked in utter dissaray. However it was a great turn around by the club,lead by Rewoildt, he has stood up and i wasn't a fan of him being captain,but he has won me over. He is largely responsible for us finishing 4th.

Don't think we can beat the cats, minor chance...but it's a chance! If not I think we should win the week after against Adelaide or Collingwood. That puts us in a Prelim...amazing! Hopefully we can play out of our skin the next few weeks and make something out of a season that looked well and truly lost 2-3 months ago

[milney044]

Yep I'm just going to sit back and enjoy this week as a top 4 finalist team. And how sweet it is, no expectations, no pressure, no worries. It truly is great. I never expected us to be in this situation and its full credit to the boys for doing everything in their power to ensure we got there. Sure there were a few slip ups along the way with losses to West Coast and Collingwood, but that's largely irrelevant now as we sit in 4th with a final at the G. We're in exactly the same position as we would be had we finished first

Rooey has won me over too this year, particularly the last 2 months. He has been inspirational and exactly what a captain is all about. Despite his goal kicking inaccuracy, i still believe he's the full package with his will power, work ethic and marvelous hands. Great year Roo, another best and fairest is on the cards. Lenny won't be too far away though, he is another outstanding player who cannot be overlooked.

Well done boys on the 4th spot, give the cats a red hot crack, there's absolutely nothing to lose. It's great going into the finals with minimal expectation, who knows, we always seem to perform better as the underdog...

[spert]

I always knew RL would peak us late in the season, and that's one of the secrets to success - I'm sorry I ever doubted him

[Saints Premiers 2008]

no comparison

04/05 it was a young squad running on youthfullness and excitement

08 is a much more disciplined movement capable of doing things the 04/05 teams never could

[bergholt]

Perceptions are everything, some say. We finished third in 2004 and fourth in 2005 with an interstate trip week 1 of the finals in both years but this year, fourth with no travel

Was I the only one who was reminded of 2005 during Sunday's game?

2005 R22
St Kilda 28.18 186 d Brisbane 7.5 47
Goals: Milne 11.0, Riewoldt 6.4
Attendance 46105
Percentage points gained: 7.0

2008 R22
St Kilda 21.21 147 d Essendon 5.9 39
Goals: Milne 7.2, Riewoldt 4.5
Attendance 46161
Percentage points gained: 5.6

Obviously we converted a little better against Brissie, and that win wasn't as important, seeing as we were ensconced in 4th before the game. But a pretty similar feel to the game, in terms of quality of the opposition.

The next week after that we went to Adelaide and beat the Crows, who finished on top. Though they were no Geelong. No Geelong at all.

[plugger66]

no comparison

04/05 it was a young squad running on youthfullness and excitement

08 is a much more disciplined movement capable of doing things the 04/05 teams never could

So you think this is a better side?

[meher baba]

Interesting to see that a few posters on here are suggesting that our team has improved since 2005. That's my view as well.

It's interesting to see that the two great talking points on this forum - 1. Ross Lyon can't coach; and 2. He took over a list that was past its best - have been destroyed perhaps forever in the course of a few short hours yesterday evening!!

We are a good team. I think we can make the GF, but we will struggle to beat Geelong either next week or in 4 weeks time. Not because they have a much better list than us (they don't: although, unlike us, they do have a once in a generation star in GA jnr). But because they have achieved a wonderful level of teamwork on and off the field that we were threatening to achieve in 2004 and 2005, but lost when RB and GT fell out.

The great thing is that we are now extremely well placed under Westaway and Lyon to regain the spirit of 2004 and 2005. And, who knows, the Harvey factor might just take us all the way!!

[joffaboy]

It's interesting to see that the two great talking points on this forum - 1. Ross Lyon can't coach; and 2. He took over a list that was past its best - have been destroyed perhaps forever in the course of a few short hours yesterday evening!!

point one correct - you and many others have been proven wrong.

point two - incorrect. Nobody said it was past its best, just that the list had not been managed well.

I still subscribe that the list had not been managed well. It took the guile and foresight of Ross Lyon to get experienced players into the team to supplement the excellent core group of players (who are only about to reach their best), and utilise the rookie list,while the younger players brought into the club in the past two years mature.

List management also means managing injuries. The previous coach was abysmal at it. The new restructured football dept with the coach not dominating every single job has minimised our injuries to such an extent that we basically only have impact injuries.

We are a good team. I think we can make the GF, but we will struggle to beat Geelong either next week or in 4 weeks time. Not because they have a much better list than us (they don't: although, unlike us, they do have a once in a generation star in GA jnr).

Agreed. Except we have a bunch of stars as well - headed by Riewoldt.

But because they have achieved a wonderful level of teamwork on and off the field that we were threatening to achieve in 2004 and 2005, but lost when RB and GT fell out.

Rubbish. The previous coach dominated the football dept and we paid for it in an appalling injury run and poor recruitment. Geelong restructured their football dept after 2006 and took all the peripheral jobs of Thompson so he could coach. Costa also knew stability was the key and decided that Bomber Thompson was to be given another shot.

We followed suit and are now reaping the benefits. The structure under GT/RB regime was the reason we didn't win a flag, or even reach a GF. Westaway came out mid year, when the naysayers and ne'er-do-wells were baying for Ross Lyon blood and said he would like him to coach for ten years. he meant that he would like Ross to be successful and the club to have STABILITY.

You see he had had a long conversation with Frank Costa and was given the lowdown.

thank God the admin didn't heed to the usual carping loser supporters who want a coach sacked because, well thats the only thing ever wrong at the saints

The great thing is that we are now extremely well placed under Westaway and Lyon to regain the spirit of 2004 and 2005. And, who knows, the Harvey factor might just take us all the way!!

FGS get over 2004/2005, it is 2008, a different coach, a different Admin. We play different football, we are actually mentally tough, not front running soft as butter show ponies of the previous era.

We have won more come from behind games this season than in the past 10. Actually first time since 1999.

This group has noting to do with the failure years of 2004/5 that you long for.

It is its own master, and will forge its own destiny, as it did yesterday. If it failes, well so be it, but stop trying to justify your position on Ross Lyon with fantasies and romatic notions on the false dawn of the previous era, it is tiresome.

[plugger66]

Why are we mentally tougher now. Yes we have come from behind more but is it mentally tough to lose to second worst side in the competition when our season could have depended on it. I agree they are different sides but I cannot agree we werent mentally tough in 2004/05. Not experienced enough in 2004 and just to many injuries for any coach to handle in 2005.

[joffaboy]

Why are we mentally tougher now. Yes we have come from behind more but is it mentally tough to lose to second worst side in the competition when our season could have depended on it. I agree they are different sides but I cannot agree we werent mentally tough in 2004/05. Not experienced enough in 2004 and just to many injuries for any coach to handle in 2005.

Fair enough, your opinion.

I just never saw us fight back under the previous regime. Very good front runners, but couldn't come back when headed. I suppose thats where all the "no Plan B" comments start from.

[WayneJudson42]

And so the broken record continues. Why do some still hark back to 04 and 05?

Recapture the spirit??? Give me a break, please. What, recapture the spirit that got us to losing 2 prelims?

When will people realize that thi sis a new era, new coach, new admin, and a vastly different line up?

Let's move on, and enjoy the journey, shall we?

[meher baba]

And so the broken record continues. Why do some still hark back to 04 and 05?

Well, I certainly didn't start it in this thread.

And who's to say for certain that we are going to do any better than lose in a prelim again this year? But at least we are back playing back in the league where we belong, given our list.

And, JB, your argument that the experienced players recruited through the "guile and foresight" of RL have made all the difference must be doubtful at best. Certainly King and, to some extent, Schneider, Dempster and C Gardiner have made a difference.

But so have Mini, Gwilt and R Clarke finding form in the right roles. And so has giving up on Gardi as a second ruckman and going with Kosi. And so has moving Gram and BJ further forward. And so has giving up on(hopefully only for the time being) on Armo. And so has Milne's rapid return to his best form (which, BTW, I reckon Lyon can take a lot of the credit for). And Joey's, and Riewoldt's....(not to mention Bally being as fit as he has been for years until his unfortunate injury against Port).

And all of these achievements derive from the list that Lyon inherited. Which was, and still is, intrinsically very good: not particularly because of anything that GT or RB did, but because we had great draft picks and excellent tradees in Hall and Everitt during the 2000-03 period and - with the exception of the Brooks schmozzle - we used them well. (Even R Clarke is looking like an ok pick ATM).

The core list we brought together in the early 2000s is good. And always has been good. That's not a GT vs RL thing. It's just a fact.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

no comparison

04/05 it was a young squad running on youthfullness and excitement

08 is a much more disciplined movement capable of doing things the 04/05 teams never could

So you think this is a better side?

on paper no

however we are able to play many more different styles of football nowadays, we have more mature bodies

under gt we could only play attacking footyball and it got us unstuck frequently