I have joined the club.

[The Fireman]

I have joined the club of Lyon bashers.
In all my years of watching the Saints I have never seen a Saints squad with so much potential and so poorly managed, Lyon is waiting for the players to get used to his game plan...wtf ?
We don't have to worry about tanking because Lyons Game plan will ensure we get good draft picks next year and in the future.
We will lose against freo and the Bombers.
Our team was beaten by a bunch of kids from Collingwood , any soul that the boys had left has been squashed by Lyon.
So there you have it, I am now an official Lyon basher, in the past I have been patient but that's it, I have had enough.
We have a team that is under achieving and the only reason that remains that I can put my finger on, is the coach.
Fellow Lyon bashers will understand...the others ? Bring it on.

[SENsei]

For me, it's all in the communication of the message.

If you can't get your message through to the players, your runner, your assistant coaches.....you are stuffed.

[The Fireman]

For me, it's all in the communication of the message.

If you can't get your message through to the players, your runner, your assistant coaches.....you are stuffed.

I could live with the notion that all we need is an interpretor for our coach but I think it plain to see by all of us that his plan is not remotely an attacking one which suited this list in previous seasons.

[SENsei]

Oh I totally agree.

However, he can't communicate his message....interpretor or not. The message isn't getting through.

All round bad news.

[JeffDunne]

I've actually gone the other way Firey, IMO he'll get better if we give him time.

TBH, don't think we've got much choice but to persist.

In hindsight our short term fate was probably determined when we prematurely pulled the trigger on the last coach. I hate to say it but RodgerFox was spot on with his assessment of the impact at the time.

If we make the same mistake again I fear we'll lose more than just a coach. This time I reckon some of our senior players might just say enough is enough.

[chook23]

Your comment

The Fireman

[b].........In all my years of watching the Saints I have never seen a Saints squad with so much potential .........[/b]

IMO I think your rating of the CURRENT list including 2007 (the time that RL has coached) is way over the top.

Yes we have some stars but our overall list or even best 22 has many weaknesses etc

Big call on the list

[maverick]

I've actually gone the other way Firey, IMO he'll get better if we give him time.

TBH, don't think we've got much choice but to persist.

In hindsight our short term fate was probably determined when we prematurely pulled the trigger on the last coach. I hate to say it but RodgerFox was spot on with his assessment of the impact at the time.

If we make the same mistake again I fear we'll lose more than just a coach. This time I reckon some of our senior players might just say enough is enough.

I don't buy that no choice thing.
Yes the players will be upset, and maybe a few will need talking round, but the same thing I know happened with at least 1 high profile player when Blight departed.

I think the problem with replacing Lyon, is not the players, but whether we can attract a worthy enough candidate. This I doubt.

[joffaboy]

In hindsight our short term fate was probably determined when we prematurely pulled the trigger on the last coach. I hate to say it but RodgerFox was spot on with his assessment of the impact at the time.

Unfortunately the sacking of Thomas and then the demise of Butterss had to happen for the club to go forward. Two giant egos who thought they owned th STKFC.

Interesting to hear Westaway saying that after chatting to Frank Costa that stability was the key.

I dont blame the coach and think they are overrated in what they can achieve with a list. Thomas was always "outcoached" when he lost (whatever the hell that means) and whenever we lose now it is because of Lyons "lack of passion", "flooding gameplan", him being a "Carlton/Robert Walls plant" etc etc.

Interestingly enough all the sack Lyon brigade were silent through I mini winning streak (which IMHO was an abberation except for two qtrs against Hawthorn).

I said earlier this seaon we just dont have the cattle. The core is still there from the early draft picks of the first part of the decade but the bottom of the list needed strengthening.

I am with you, we have no option but to go with Lyon. His coaching is OK, not great, but is improving. Bomber Thomson wasn't thought of asd a good coach either until last year and he was at the Cats since 2000. Interestingly his improvement has co-incided with his list having about 10 All Australians in it.

Easy to bash the coach, the list has awful skills and also needs critisism.

Everyone is responsible not just Lyon.

[SENsei]

I have only one comment about that joffaboy in relation to Bomber Thompson. He took his early medicine and drafted youngsters into the club and developed them over those years. Hence why they are now All Australians.

I haven't seen that thought process evident from Lyon thus far.

M Clarke, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, Dempster, Schneider, King.....hardly building us for the future.

If I saw that process happening, I'd cut him some slack. But he went the quick fix option first up thinking we were a show.

Topping up thinking isn't the actions of a man who joined the club thinking the list was in decline. That's the thinking of a man who thought he was only a few steps away from the big one.

He made a miscalculation. And I believe the club did also when they appointed him to 'take us to the next level".

What level is that exactly?

[JeffDunne]

In hindsight our short term fate was probably determined when we prematurely pulled the trigger on the last coach. I hate to say it but RodgerFox was spot on with his assessment of the impact at the time.

Unfortunately the sacking of Thomas and then the demise of Butterss had to happen for the club to go forward. Two giant egos who thought they owned th STKFC.

I don't agree on Thomas but that's done and dusted.

Interesting to hear Westaway saying that after chatting to Frank Costa that stability was the key.

Performance is the key. If someone's performing then you shouldn't sack them and then you get stability. Stability for the sake of stability breads complacency.

I also find it incredibly strange that people on minute argue it was right to sack Thomas, then the next say we shouldn't sack Lyon because we need stability.

If someone's not doing their job and there's someone better equipped to do it, then move them on.

Having said that though, the coach is the most important person at a football club. I know that realisation was probably hard for our previous president to appreciate, and I suspect that’s part of the reason Ross “charismaâ€

[joffaboy]

Good points Sensational. He certainly has drafted some players from other clubs. Most clubs do that. His picking up of King and C Gardiner for nothing wasn't bad, either was the Schneider Dempster trade.

At the same time he has developed rookies. Attard, Geary, Eddy, and McQualter are all off the rookie list, so was Clint Jones I think. As well as that we have Steven, Howard (hopefully), McEvoy, Armo and others coming through.

I think you are makring him way too hard. Remember Bomber Thompson had Ablett, Ablett, Scarlett, and Hawkins for nothing under the pathetic father son rule, and also drafted Mooney and Ottens from other clubs.

However if thats your perspective on the matter, fair enough.

[maverick]

I am with you, we have no option but to go with Lyon. His coaching is OK, not great, but is improving. Bomber Thomson wasn't thought of asd a good coach either until last year and he was at the Cats since 2000. Interestingly his improvement has co-incided with his list having about 10 All Australians in it.

Easy to bash the coach, the list has awful skills and also needs critisism.

Everyone is responsible not just Lyon.

How is he improving, just wondering, because I don't see it.
The last three weeks have been as bad as anything we have seen in two years, both in performance on field and selection off field.

[joffaboy]

Ross needs to get better and he’ll only do that with experience. While I think it’s a mistake to sign coaches without any senior experience, I don’t think anything really prepares you for being an AFL coach. It’s a pretty unique job.

Well since Baldock we have had Sheldon, Stan, Timmy, GT, and Lyon. The only one with experience was Blight and he was obviously the wrong choice.

Our history is littered with wrong decisions and then sackings.

Bottom line, you don’t sign rookie coaches and expect overnight success. If you sign one, be prepared to ride out his mistakes.

Well Lyon has a three year contract. I would at least expect the club to honour that contract and review its position after the 2009 season.

I am curious though. Did you think Bomber Thomson was doing his job with the Cats prior to 2007? 2004 and 2005 was parallel with the Saints but he missed the finals in 2006 and looked like his time was done. he was no longer a rookie coach, but the club stuck with him, changed the coaching dept around and the rest is history.

Could be argued that the stability of not sacking Thomson was instrumental in the Cats becoming so successful in 2007 despite the coach "not doing his job" in 2006.

[kaos theory]

Interesting....

I'm still supporting him...only just. I have been very disappointed with the last 3 weeks: Here is the situation as I see it:

- We have a pretty good list, but I don't think its great or the equal of the cats.
- The list has deteriorated through many years of neglect (2004 onwards) in the recruiting, player development (e.g. vfl relationship & skills development) & injury management areas.
- We have finally improved these areas at the start of this yr, under the new administration, but the effects will take time to come through.
- We have a coach near the end of his second yr, and he has been unable to extract the best out of the available players, or build excitement and consistency. Admittedly he has had only one yr under the improved footy dept. model, but hasn't seemed to capitalize on it.
- IF we change coach at the end of this year, this will almost guarantee a few years down the bottom of the ladder, as the new coach goes through rebuilding & learning about our players, implementing new game plan etc.
- IF we go for another untried coach (e.g. Voss, Jones, or a current coaching assistant), then we can add a few more years on the re-building phase
- IF we go for a major overhaul of coaching panel, but keep RL, then that might be the best option as it keeps a level of stability, but brings in new experience/perspective in the coaching assistance roles. Question will be is this enough, and is the issue RL?
- As joffa noted, Bomber Thompson didn’t look too great as a coach as late as early 2007, then their new plans & improvements through the previous summer finally clicked with the players…and the rest is history.


We are in a difficult position, and some hard decisions need to be made that the end of the year. (unless something out of the ordinary happens for the remainder of the year…)

[maverick]

Ross needs to get better and he’ll only do that with experience. While I think it’s a mistake to sign coaches without any senior experience, I don’t think anything really prepares you for being an AFL coach. It’s a pretty unique job.

Well since Baldock we have had Sheldon, Stan, Timmy, GT, and Lyon. The only one with experience was Blight and he was obviously the wrong choice.

Our history is littered with wrong decisions and then sackings.

Bottom line, you don’t sign rookie coaches and expect overnight success. If you sign one, be prepared to ride out his mistakes.

Well Lyon has a three year contract. I would at least expect the club to honour that contract and review its position after the 2009 season.

I am curious though. Did you think Bomber Thomson was doing his job with the Cats prior to 2007? 2004 and 2005 was parallel with the Saints but he missed the finals in 2006 and looked like his time was done. he was no longer a rookie coach, but the club stuck with him, changed the coaching dept around and the rest is history.

Could be argued that the stability of not sacking Thomson was instrumental in the Cats becoming so successful in 2007 despite the coach "not doing his job" in 2006.

That is true JB, but what you quote with Bomber is more relevant to GT than RL, because Bomber had some runs (ie finals) on the board, RL does not.

[saintspremiers]

A few issues I have:

1. topping up the list - well it worked a treat for Sydney to win one flag and nearly two, and they're travelling OK again this year, but that doesn't mean it works for all clubs....

2. I'm happy if Lyon coaches us next season - Laidley and Clarkson were deemed as complete duds early on, had no charisma, couldn't communicate well with the media etc etc, but have now gotten through to their lists and it's starting to gel. Perhaps the same will happen gradually with Lyon?

Let's face it, Lyon and Thomas are like chalk and cheese - it's a monumental change for the players to get used to!

[SENsei]

joffaboy,

I'm happy to have my viewpoint changed if I see some planning going forward.

Take your point on the rookie development and younger players. Hope that continues.

As for the topping up with recycled players, not sure there is many on the Geelong list that fall into that category.

Mooney? Ottens was a trade and he wanted to leave Richmond. Don't class him as a recycled player. It was player motivated not club motivated. Just like Judd isn't a recycled player, he's a traded recruit.

Subtle difference.

[marksnsparks]

Sounds to me like St Kilda have been panicing since 1966, and the further in the past the one flag got, the more the panic set in.

Short term fix after short term fix.
Recycled has been players after recycled has been players.
Coach sacking after coach sacking.
Board after board.

Well...you get the idea.

I'm sick of typing this in endless responses, but surely we need to stop the panic, suck it up, and have the balls to implement a 5-10 year plan and not just a series of 2 year plans?

Isn't it sad that at a paltry 4 years, GT was our second longest serving coach? Doesn't that say something about our culture, and point to why we fail all the time?

This board need to be in it for 10 years at least. This coach need to be there with them. End of story.

As to why Lyon went initially for the short term fix? Before he took the job, no doubt he looked from the outside in at the St Kilda list and thought like most of the country that we were capable of winning a flag and he thought he might just need to do some tweaking. Now he hopefully realises we are a paper tiger and will go for the long term option of redeveloping the list with the emphasis on youth.

History is full of unpopular decisions at the time that prooved to be right in the end. Hopefully the board has a set of gonads between them....

[kaos theory]

A few issues I have:

1. topping up the list - well it worked a treat for Sydney to win one flag and nearly two, and they're travelling OK again this year, but that doesn't mean it works for all clubs....

2. I'm happy if Lyon coaches us next season - Laidley and Clarkson were deemed as complete duds early on, had no charisma, couldn't communicate well with the media etc etc, but have now gotten through to their lists and it's starting to gel. Perhaps the same will happen gradually with Lyon?

Let's face it, Lyon and Thomas are like chalk and cheese - it's a monumental change for the players to get used to!

Yes, true.

Also, Schieder and dempster are not exactly old hacks. they are pretty young, and schieder, with another solid pre-season, has plenty of up side.

I think RL tried to do a bit of both. He thought the team was a finals contender, and needed a few players (e.g. rucks) to help, but also saw the need for more youth as well....

He may come good...question is do we wait another yr or risk a decision now...

[joffaboy]

That is true JB, but what you quote with Bomber is more relevant to GT than RL, because Bomber had some runs (ie finals) on the board, RL does not.

How many finals appearances for Bombers charges between 2000 and 2003? thats four season before a finals appearance.

Lyon has not even had two seasons.

Stability at Catland has been the key. Westaway knows it even if the supporter base doesn't.

We need to stick with Lyon and give him his three years.

For years Richmond screamed about Frawley being a crap coach, all they needed was a coach and they would be the "tigers of old". Four years into a five year contract how many finals has the magical super coach Wallace got for the Tigers? About two less than the supposed rubbish coach Frawley.

I really think it is simplistic to just blame the coach and want to change him at the drop of the hat. As JeffDunne said the GT sacking and the Butterss demise is done and dusted, gone, finished. We have a new coach and a new board. The hopeful days of 2004-2006 are gone. Time for the long haul.

If Lyon cant do it, he will go, but a sudden sacking halfway through a contract will be irresponsible and totally wrong.

Dont get me wrong, I couldn't care less about Lyon. I dont have a vested interest in anybody at St.Kilda. I support the club not the person. If he doesn't come up with the goods after three years well the Saints have to wiegh their options and make a decision. But Lyon needs time to implement his coaching methods. How long do we give him? At least to the end of his contract. After that? Well it s up for grabs AFAIAC.

[kaos theory]

Sounds to me like St Kilda have been panicing since 1966, and the further in the past the one flag got, the more the panic set in.

Short term fix after short term fix.
Recycled has been players after recycled has been players.
Coach sacking after coach sacking.
Board after board.

Well...you get the idea.

I'm sick of typing this in endless responses, but surely we need to stop the panic, suck it up, and have the balls to implement a 5-10 year plan and not just a series of 2 year plans?

Isn't it sad that at a paltry 4 years, GT was our second longest serving coach? Doesn't that say something about our culture, and point to why we fail all the time?

This board need to be in it for 10 years at least. This coach need to be there with them. End of story.

As to why Lyon went initially for the short term fix? Before he took the job, no doubt he looked from the outside in at the St Kilda list and thought like most of the country that we were capable of winning a flag and he thought he might just need to do some tweaking. Now he hopefully realises we are a paper tiger and will go for the long term option of redeveloping the list with the emphasis on youth.

History is full of unpopular decisions at the time that prooved to be right in the end. Hopefully the board has a set of gonads between them....

good points....

[degruch]

That is true JB, but what you quote with Bomber is more relevant to GT than RL, because Bomber had some runs (ie finals) on the board, RL does not.

Are you talking about RL as a coach, or as a player? RL was an assistant for the Swans in their finals campaigns.

In any case, Thompson and Clarkson are classic examples of why we should, and will (thank gawd), persist with RL.

[saint66au]

This thread is close to being locked

Contains far too much intelligent discussion, an unacceptable level of respect for others opinions and not enough abuse.

Stop it..all of you..STOP IT!!!!

[marksnsparks]

This thread is close to being locked

Contains far too much intelligent discussion, an unacceptable level of respect for others opinions and not enough abuse.

Stop it..all of you..STOP IT!!!!

LOL

Maybe we're close to putting together a ticket for another board spill?

[maverick]

That is true JB, but what you quote with Bomber is more relevant to GT than RL, because Bomber had some runs (ie finals) on the board, RL does not.

How many finals appearances for Bombers charges between 2000 and 2003? thats four season before a finals appearance.

Lyon has not even had two seasons.

Stability at Catland has been the key. Westaway knows it even if the supporter base doesn't.

We need to stick with Lyon and give him his three years.

For years Richmond screamed about Frawley being a crap coach, all they needed was a coach and they would be the "tigers of old". Four years into a five year contract how many finals has the magical super coach Wallace got for the Tigers? About two less than the supposed rubbish coach Frawley.

I really think it is simplistic to just blame the coach and want to change him at the drop of the hat. As JeffDunne said the GT sacking and the Butterss demise is done and dusted, gone, finished. We have a new coach and a new board. The hopeful days of 2004-2006 are gone. Time for the long haul.

If Lyon cant do it, he will go, but a sudden sacking halfway through a contract will be irresponsible and totally wrong.

Dont get me wrong, I couldn't care less about Lyon. I dont have a vested interest in anybody at St.Kilda. I support the club not the person. If he doesn't come up with the goods after three years well the Saints have to wiegh their options and make a decision. But Lyon needs time to implement his coaching methods. How long do we give him? At least to the end of his contract. After that? Well it s up for grabs AFAIAC.

Cats played finals in 2000