Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
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Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
There have been a whole host of kids over the years who have been highly rated and, for one reason or another, have failed to make the grade.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
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We hopelessly overrate them.
Read this forum and they're all going to be guns apparently...
Having said that, I'm glad we've pushed some games through their legs this year. I don't think that's a bad thing at all - not only does it give them a chance but it reinvigorates the oldies in my book.
Read this forum and they're all going to be guns apparently...
Having said that, I'm glad we've pushed some games through their legs this year. I don't think that's a bad thing at all - not only does it give them a chance but it reinvigorates the oldies in my book.
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I don't believe I overrate our youngsters. At the moment, it doesn't appear that any of our youngsters have the ability to become terrific to elite AFL footballers - with the possible exceptions of McEvoy and Steven (reserving judgment till this time next season). We need young promise, not young GOPs.
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Re: Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
Drafting kids is a lottery to some extent... especially after picks 5 IMO.OLB wrote:There have been a whole host of kids over the years who have been highly rated and, for one reason or another, have failed to make the grade.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
So what do we do? Everyone is picked on potential. Some make it, other don't.
Do we over rate them? Perhaps. But we gotta give them time.
Every draft appers to throw up a few freaks. But the rest take time to develop. Personally. I'm more concerned with people who write our kids off simply becuase the don't make an immediate impact like Judd.
Cases in point: Cooney, Ablett, Hodge. Joey.
But we semm to have psychic powers and predict how good or bad a player will be in 5 years time.
Also, don't forget that by finishing 9 and up on the ladder since 04 also means that we have not had access to the best bunch for a while.
In which case, the only option is to trade a quality player for a high draft pick. Is this what we want?
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Re: Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
WayneJudson42 wrote:OLB wrote:There have been a whole host of kids over the years who have been highly rated and, for one reason or another, have failed to make the grade.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
Cases in point: Cooney, Ablett, Hodge. Joey.
?
I think that answers the question.
We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
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Would that have something to do with the rejects we've recruited since?saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
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I assume your talking about players from other clubs.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Would that have something to do with the rejects we've recruited since?saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
Gardiner, Gardiner, Birss, Schnieder, Dempster, King, Clarke.....That a fair amount of nothingness.....
But on the other hand, we havn't really traded a first round pick since getting Hamill? Am i right?
I think we have traded 2 since. Pick 17 for Watts and pick 6 which we originally traded for then to Port for Brooks.Spinner wrote:I assume your talking about players from other clubs.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Would that have something to do with the rejects we've recruited since?saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
Gardiner, Gardiner, Birss, Schnieder, Dempster, King, Clarke.....That a fair amount of nothingness.....
But on the other hand, we havn't really traded a first round pick since getting Hamill? Am i right?
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Correct....Pick 6 was also coupled with pick 32 or so.......A lot of wasted drafting there.plugger66 wrote:I think we have traded 2 since. Pick 17 for Watts and pick 6 which we originally traded for then to Port for Brooks.Spinner wrote:I assume your talking about players from other clubs.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Would that have something to do with the rejects we've recruited since?saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
Gardiner, Gardiner, Birss, Schnieder, Dempster, King, Clarke.....That a fair amount of nothingness.....
But on the other hand, we havn't really traded a first round pick since getting Hamill? Am i right?
(Brooks was my big white hope)
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Re: Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
Yes thats right.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Drafting kids is a lottery to some extent... especially after picks 5 IMO.OLB wrote:There have been a whole host of kids over the years who have been highly rated and, for one reason or another, have failed to make the grade.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
So what do we do? Everyone is picked on potential. Some make it, other don't.
Do we over rate them? Perhaps. But we gotta give them time.
Every draft appers to throw up a few freaks. But the rest take time to develop. Personally. I'm more concerned with people who write our kids off simply becuase the don't make an immediate impact like Judd.
Cases in point: Cooney, Ablett, Hodge. Joey.
Einstein, Hawking, Da Vinci, Joffa (and his golden jacket)..
You Idiot!!
Put then are are up to eight other clubs who get duds! Luck plays a role in what happens. Look at Selwood would have gone No. 1 had he not been injured during the year. If that had not have happened he would be unlikely to have been at Geelong. Same goes for Judd so it really depends on circumstance.saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
But yes we do have a tendancy to overrate our youngsters or on the opposite side not give them enough time to fit into the system!
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I don't know that we overrate more than anyone else... it's the nature of forums such as this to rush to judgement. Big bold statements that will catch peoples attention. Patience isn't the order of the day, or is something that's happened in past tense.
My observation has been that most players are in the system for around 5 years before I have a real read on them. The exceptions are obviously those who come out and dominate, Judd's and Selwoods. There are far more examples of players I've written off going on to be superb than vice versa, though often someone I get excited about as a youngster turns out to be a GOP... especially talls. Occasionally, a GOP turns around and impresses me, ala Petrie this year.
Talls take longer, smalls can often have more impact immediately but the development curve is shallower.
At this stage I'm pretty satisfied that Eddy, Armitage and Gilbert are going to be AFL players (all have had really good games in their first few years, are still learning and growing into being pro athletes... they'll achieve what has been their best more consistently, and their best will improve), and though I've had no indication any of them will be a star yet, they're all still young enough it could happen, so I'm hopeful. None are rising star type excitement (Gilbo had some moments last year), but all have shown they can handle the speed and intensity of the grade.
I'm still undecided on Geary. From reports he's gotten to the stage of too good for the V, but looks lost on the big stage. Needs to set himself for a big preseason in '09.
Raph and Gwilt have the talent, but they're in a position where they either need to play some faultless footy for a while, or dominate to an extent that the occasional brain freezes are outweighed... ala Goddard's '06 season.
McEvoy, Howard, I haven't seen enough to know. Steven I haven't seen since preseason.
The grass is always greener, and being a sportsfan is about hope. Maybe we overrate them, but that's the nature of the game. The kids are like babies, every good thing impresses us, and it's easier to forgive the gaffes. And as long as we continue to fill up the pipe with new youngsters, we know we'll see another star eventually. I'd bet that at least one player named in this post is regarded as a star 5 years from now.
My observation has been that most players are in the system for around 5 years before I have a real read on them. The exceptions are obviously those who come out and dominate, Judd's and Selwoods. There are far more examples of players I've written off going on to be superb than vice versa, though often someone I get excited about as a youngster turns out to be a GOP... especially talls. Occasionally, a GOP turns around and impresses me, ala Petrie this year.
Talls take longer, smalls can often have more impact immediately but the development curve is shallower.
At this stage I'm pretty satisfied that Eddy, Armitage and Gilbert are going to be AFL players (all have had really good games in their first few years, are still learning and growing into being pro athletes... they'll achieve what has been their best more consistently, and their best will improve), and though I've had no indication any of them will be a star yet, they're all still young enough it could happen, so I'm hopeful. None are rising star type excitement (Gilbo had some moments last year), but all have shown they can handle the speed and intensity of the grade.
I'm still undecided on Geary. From reports he's gotten to the stage of too good for the V, but looks lost on the big stage. Needs to set himself for a big preseason in '09.
Raph and Gwilt have the talent, but they're in a position where they either need to play some faultless footy for a while, or dominate to an extent that the occasional brain freezes are outweighed... ala Goddard's '06 season.
McEvoy, Howard, I haven't seen enough to know. Steven I haven't seen since preseason.
The grass is always greener, and being a sportsfan is about hope. Maybe we overrate them, but that's the nature of the game. The kids are like babies, every good thing impresses us, and it's easier to forgive the gaffes. And as long as we continue to fill up the pipe with new youngsters, we know we'll see another star eventually. I'd bet that at least one player named in this post is regarded as a star 5 years from now.
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Re: Do we overrate our youngsters more than any other club?
Explain? Why idiot? Pls feel free to grace us with your intelligent repotoire if that is the case.tweedaletomanning wrote:Yes thats right.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Drafting kids is a lottery to some extent... especially after picks 5 IMO.OLB wrote:There have been a whole host of kids over the years who have been highly rated and, for one reason or another, have failed to make the grade.
Armo, Eddy, Gilbert and now it seems McEvoy and Steven are the next superstars.
Too early to tell with McEvoy and Steven.
Armo, while extremely willing, has never really impressed me with any other facet of his game. Poor mans Michael Braun imo.
Eddy, ditto.
Gilbert has fallen away in a big way. Horrible use of the footy. Hopefully just a case of the second-year blues.
I think we do overrate our youngsters.
We haven't had exceptional quality come through in a while and our network of scouts should be addressed.
Cain Ackland was featured on our "Young Guns" DVD a few years back.
So what do we do? Everyone is picked on potential. Some make it, other don't.
Do we over rate them? Perhaps. But we gotta give them time.
Every draft appers to throw up a few freaks. But the rest take time to develop. Personally. I'm more concerned with people who write our kids off simply becuase the don't make an immediate impact like Judd.
Cases in point: Cooney, Ablett, Hodge. Joey.
Einstein, Hawking, Da Vinci, Joffa (and his golden jacket)..
You Idiot!!
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
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None of Geelong's current stars -Ling, Corey, Milburn, Bartell etc were instant champions..they started out as skinny young players who were learning the ropes. Those guys just played as a group in and out of the seniors, matured in the mind, toughened up the body and are now top players. I see no difference to Armo, Geary, Allen, Eddy and a few others. These guys are the future and will probably be valuable players in a couple of seasons.
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Agree. Maybe I quoted the wrong players. But that was the gist of my argument.spert wrote:None of Geelong's current stars -Ling, Corey, Milburn, Bartell etc were instant champions..they started out as skinny young players who were learning the ropes. Those guys just played as a group in and out of the seniors, matured in the mind, toughened up the body and are now top players. I see no difference to Armo, Geary, Allen, Eddy and a few others. These guys are the future and will probably be valuable players in a couple of seasons.
Hodge has taken a while to get to where he is. So has Joey, and Ablett, and even Cooney has only shown his real worth this year IMO.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Just thought Id throw this list into the discussion..its the amount of times frm 2004-present that a Clubs had a player nominated for the Rising Star award
West Coast 11
Brisbane 10
Melbourne 9
Richmond 9
Collingwood 8
Port Adelaide 8
Carlton 7
Hawthorn 7
Essendon 6
Geelong 6
Bulldogs 6
North Melbourne 5
Fremantle 3
Adelaide 2
Sydney 2
St Kilda 2
Discuss
West Coast 11
Brisbane 10
Melbourne 9
Richmond 9
Collingwood 8
Port Adelaide 8
Carlton 7
Hawthorn 7
Essendon 6
Geelong 6
Bulldogs 6
North Melbourne 5
Fremantle 3
Adelaide 2
Sydney 2
St Kilda 2
Discuss
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Hindsight can be a wonderful thing...or in this case quite depressing.
It is now pretty clear that the Saints kept JB way too long well past the era of recruiters picking guys mainly based on just their impressions and gut feel. His last draft as the head recruiter was 2006 and really change should have occureda lot earlier.
Now extra resources may have helped, but the bigger problem to me would seem to be that the weightings on the various skills sets incuding attitude was up the duff.
Allowing this situation to continue in this way for so long, when other clubs had moved to much more rigorous examination and selection processes I am afraid was gross incompetence and is biting us on the bum HARD at present.
While there is much discussion about coaches, gameplans etc etc......getting the right cattle in the first place (and then developing it etc etc) is hugely important at any AFL Club that wants to be successful.
When you look at the lack of footskills for example of the players as a group compared to other AFL clubs you really have to ask WTF was the selection criteria?
It is now pretty clear that the Saints kept JB way too long well past the era of recruiters picking guys mainly based on just their impressions and gut feel. His last draft as the head recruiter was 2006 and really change should have occureda lot earlier.
Now extra resources may have helped, but the bigger problem to me would seem to be that the weightings on the various skills sets incuding attitude was up the duff.
Allowing this situation to continue in this way for so long, when other clubs had moved to much more rigorous examination and selection processes I am afraid was gross incompetence and is biting us on the bum HARD at present.
While there is much discussion about coaches, gameplans etc etc......getting the right cattle in the first place (and then developing it etc etc) is hugely important at any AFL Club that wants to be successful.
When you look at the lack of footskills for example of the players as a group compared to other AFL clubs you really have to ask WTF was the selection criteria?
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To a degree. We had some stuff ups when we went for a top up IMO.Spinner wrote:I assume your talking about players from other clubs.....WayneJudson42 wrote:Would that have something to do with the rejects we've recruited since?saint66au wrote:We were spoiled rotten with the rapid and instant impression Roo, Kosi, Luke, Dal and to a lesser extent X and Goose made.
Having said that, every year now 3-4 clubs recruit players who make a significant impact in their first year (Selwood, Palmer). Another 3-4 have players who take a huge step in their second year.
Since 2005 we have had neither
Gardiner, Gardiner, Birss, Schnieder, Dempster, King, Clarke.....That a fair amount of nothingness.....
But on the other hand, we havn't really traded a first round pick since getting Hamill? Am i right?
Brooks, Watts, McGough. And the one's RL has picked up, also.
It's hindsight but sometimes you wonder what might have been.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.