Is it wrong to think RL isnt a good coach

[plugger66]

Firstly I will I say that IMO GT should not have been sacked but he is gone. We now have RL and what ever happens this year we must keep him next year. Sacking GT hasnt worked as didnt sacking Stan Alves and Ken Sheldon.

My question is what has RL done to prove he is a good coach. Now for all the GT lovers and haters this is about RL.

I myself think he at the moment is nothing more than an average coach but I would like other opinions and why.

Main reasons for this is his game plan or making the players play the game plan is poor and his ability to motivate the players seems fair at best.

[rodgerfox]

Of course it's wrong to think Lyon isn't a good coach.

To do so, would mean you must have an 'agenda' and/or love GT.

Forget the fact that our recruitment has been diabolical over the past 18 months. That we missed the 8 last year, and look set to miss it again. And the fact that not one single player has improved under his tutelage.

I'd be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is an Ok coach, but quite simply there is no doubt. There is not a skerrick of evidence to suggest he knows what he is doing, and is on the right track to getting there.

After 2 years, we look more lost as a team than we did when he took over.

At what point do we expect to see the fruits of his labour?

[st.byron]

My main concern about Lyon is his lack of ability to inspire the players to play at their best. I've thought since the start of the year that they look like a team without spirit. There've been a few games and quarters where this hasn't been the case, but mostly they look like a bunch of guys trying to implement a plan they don't really believe in.

Am also disappointed with the lack of improvement across the list. With a few exceptions players have either stagnated or gone backwards under Lyon. I'm struggling to find more than two or three who've improved.

[bergsone]

Dont agree entirely Rodger,CJ,Goddard,maybe 1 or 2 others have improved imo,but MANY others havent,some even going backwards
I was under the impression RL was given the job ,to tweak the gameplan to win a GF,not to dismantle it to what we see now

[Zippy]

Never forget, coaches can learn on the job. Dean Laidley used to be a spluttering idiot. Now he's got his team overachieving.

The worst coach is someone who can't learn new things. Dennis Pagan didn't exactly set the world on fire at Carlton.

Is Ross Lyon learning from his mistakes, or is he just blaming the players for everything? To me, if you can't get a professional, coachable group of players (and even he's admitted our players are coachable) to follow simple instructions after a year and a half, maybe there's something wrong? Like, maybe, your game plan and instructions are incompatible, for instance?

We were rated second-favourite for the flag on the basis of our talent. If our entire list is that overrated, Thomas must have been the best coach in history to have them all playing above themselves for so long. More likely, Lyon just isn't getting the best out of them.

So if I was the board, I'd ask him to front the board at season's end and present his lessons learnt from the first two years on the job - ie, what he's learnt and how he's going to change things and improve. If he shows he's learning and adapting and improving, he can stay. If he doesn't, he's not going to do us any long-term good.

[Buckets]

Nothing wrong with that!
Of course as long as you don't think that way with no real argument to back your thoughts.
I would like to surround Lyon with more compentant assistants than the ones we currently have! Might have a positive impact!!!
At the same time, if we miss this year and there is no sign of improvement next year then we would need to consider an indepth analysis of the footy club!!!!!

[kaos theory]

- We have got the support structures behind the coach right, finally.
- We have a good injury management program,
- We have a much better program to get talent and develop it (e.g. recuiting, relationship with VFL side, and rookies).

This is RL's first year under this improved model, but second year as coach.

He has a pretty good, though not great list at his disposal, and you could argue he has had enough time to get his message and playing style across to the team.

BUT the players often look confused & go into games 'flat'. The last 3 weeks have been very dissapointing. This was the time for him to make his on the team, and build on the hawks win. All the ingredients were there, but he failed, and continues to fail.

He may still turn out to be a good/very good head coach, but atm, the signs are not there...

He still has my suppor for now.....but its hanging by a thread. What he achieves, in the next 3 weeks (plus finals if we make it will be telling...).

[SENsei]

Big worry for Ross is that he wasn't appointed by this administration.

The second biggest worry is that this administration through Greg Westaway have endorsed him and supported him.

The board is fully behind the coach. Certain to lose his job. Nothing surer.

[rodgerfox]

This question was used by some when debating whether GT was any good or not.....

Would another club take Ross Lyon on as their head coach?

[fingers]

Interesting question. I'm not sure there is a clear cut answer. There is a question mark over his ability to get the team fired up. Having taken a team to a world championship this is one of the toughest things to do. Too little and your off your game.....too much and your off your game.

I think the question will only be answered in time. Structures (around the team) have changed and need time to bed in. Doesn't happen in a season. I think we will see something very different next year. I think he has the players and that is a result of his football brain - I'm not saying it's good or bad - I'm just saying that it's probably the thing that the players have linked too.

Now he needs to link with them personally - and that will take time.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with being dubious about Lyon. Many others will disagree, as we've seen umpteen times through the year.

At this stage, given where we are, and how we've gotten there, I think barring a monumental collapse over the next few weeks, we'd be ill advised not to play out the contract.

I've seen enough signs from this team to think Lyon is doing some good things. Our 2nd halves have become a strength, and I like that. I've now seen guys like Gram and Blake step up to a level where I'm happy that players are benefiting from his coaching. When the team pulls their fingers out late in games, our ability to dominate is really pleasing. From a managerial perspective, it's hard to fault list moves made under Lyon, so there's no pressing need to make a change.

What I'm not seeing is a working forward structure, in spite of what I view as an excellent array of talent (put Kosi, Roo and Milne in Hawthorn jumpers, and watch them all produce better results). I'm also concerned that Lyon seems to struggle to get the team going. I think it's really worrying that 4 quarter efforts are such a weakness. We do not perform well at contested groundball situations, mostly because of players going backwards in this area. I'm also concerned that it seems more than ever we're reliant on big performances from individual players, where the ethic is supposed to be more team oriented... it's no co-incedence that we've won games where Reiwoldt has been BOG.

On the balance, we've shown improvement between round 1 and where we are now. Lyon's got a 3 year contract, and while I'm not thrilled with his work, I think on the balance, there's more risk in not continuing than there is in continuing.

Lyon has yet to win me as a fan. In fact, I honestly don't really like his football approach, and he leaves me a bit cold in the press... but what I'm really wanting from him is wins, and he's made progress in that regard. I was to the point of wanting him fired earlier in the year, but at this point I say let him finish out his contract. I may well change my mind again by the end of the year.

[rodgerfox]

... but what I'm really wanting from him is wins, and he's made progress in that regard.

We won 11.5 last year.

This year we have 10.

We need to win 2 of the last 3 to improve in that regard.

It's highly unlikely I think.

[WayneJudson42]

Of course it's wrong to think Lyon isn't a good coach.

To do so, would mean you must have an 'agenda' and/or love GT.

Forget the fact that our recruitment has been diabolical over the past 18 months. That we missed the 8 last year, and look set to miss it again. And the fact that not one single player has improved under his tutelage.

I'd be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is an Ok coach, but quite simply there is no doubt. There is not a skerrick of evidence to suggest he knows what he is doing, and is on the right track to getting there.

After 2 years, we look more lost as a team than we did when he took over.

At what point do we expect to see the fruits of his labour?

Let's be honest that our recruiting has sucked over the last 4 years... and not just 18 months.

Firoa, Gwilt, Gilbert, McGough, Watts, Raph, Brooks, Fisher L, Ackland, Knobel... nothing to do with RL.

The flow on effects of poor recruiting is being exposed in the "here and now".

At the moment, I'm not convinced on what is going on, so the jury is out on RL AFAIAC.

Funny though that a handful of players have maintained or improved as players under the current regime, yet others have dropped off. If some can, why can't others?

I believe that there are serious holes in our list ATM, and until we fill these, players will be required to play out of position. I'll give him 1 more year. But only just.

The entire club has to sit down and review at the end of this year, and take players concerns into consideration. If in all honesty, he has lost them, then he has to go. Coz whatever his plan is... they are not buying into it.

On the other hand, maybe the cattle isn't up to his game style. So a clean will be required. But let me ask you this... All the GOP's we have, do you really think that another coach would secure a flag?

As far as win / loss is concerned, you cannot judge by comparison to 04, 05 and 06. That is too simplistic IMO.

Different team, different comp. Irrelevant argument FWIW.
The teams we smacked back then are much improved now, so the comparison is futile. Take the number of "upsets" happening this year as an example.

Let's see what next year brings, if not 2008. New board, new coahcing, new players, new fitness... no excuses in 2009 IMO.

[spert]

Are there good and bad coaches..do some have greater ability than others?? History shows that you need a good coach (including recruiting the right players) and a good administration to succeed.
RL was purely an assistant coach in a premiership team, whose success can be put directly down to Roos as coach, so RL had no real runs on the board, same as GT whose claim to fame was coaching a bush team to a flag.
We really need a coach with a big vision, rather than just trying to make an accountable team out of many players who obviously have no concept of being accountable..turning the Saints into another Swans is not the answer.
Clearly supporters are staying away in droves rather than watch the horrible and largely unsuccessful style we are playing at the moment, and it is going to be hard to sell memberships next season with this kind of tripe being served up.

[WayneJudson42]

Are there good and bad coaches..do some have greater ability than others?? History shows that you need a good coach (including recruiting the right players) and a good administration to succeed.
RL was purely an assistant coach in a premiership team, whose success can be put directly down to Roos as coach, so RL had no real runs on the board, same as GT whose claim to fame was coaching a bush team to a flag.
We really need a coach with a big vision, rather than just trying to make an accountable team out of many players who obviously have no concept of being accountable..turning the Saints into another Swans is not the answer.
Clearly supporters are staying away in droves rather than watch the horrible and largely unsuccessful style we are playing at the moment, and it is going to be hard to sell memberships next season with this kind of tripe being served up.

Apart from Sheeds, Malthouse and maybe another... all coahes have been assistants, and thu sstarted somewhere.

[Dis Believer]

I think I am probably like the majority - undecided. My heart roars "sack him" as we appear to have gone backwards under his stewardship, but the brain says "wait". Would we have gone backwards anyway? Are we starting to go forwards? Are we flat like the doggies due to training loads coming into September?

The one thing I think that is locked in for mine, is that our forward coach has to go - the best part of our game has become the most dysfunctional and I have seen nothing in the past 2 seasons to suggest that the guy has any positive input whatsoever.

[desertsaint]

Judging Lyon's progress should be made in view of the objectives that would have been set in awarding him the position.

What were these objectives and have they been met?

If they haven't been met then he gets a fail.

If the club is rewriting objectives would Lyon would've been given the job if these new objectives were originally slated?

Bottom line for me is - has the club progressed on field?

Other look at whether it will progress (eventually) under him and use this as an excuse to keep him on - this is unknowable pie in the sky stuff.
For me he has failed, but we must recruit more carefully next time and perhaps allow him to see out his contract - but a longer term view for rebuilding means that our core group of very talented footballers will not see success in their career. Not a happy scenario!

[jonesy]

You'd love to get rid of him and replace him with someone better in a perfect world.....things are never perfect at Moorabbin however.

He needs another year,if things don't improve next season then times up. Give him a chance to reinvent his methods over the pre-season,everyone learns from there mistakes. Hopefully Ross fast tracks his learning,he'll need too if he wants to keep his 500K+ income past 2009

[maverick]

Firstly I will I say that IMO GT should not have been sacked but he is gone. We now have RL and what ever happens this year we must keep him next year. Sacking GT hasnt worked as didnt sacking Stan Alves and Ken Sheldon.

My question is what has RL done to prove he is a good coach. Now for all the GT lovers and haters this is about RL.

I myself think he at the moment is nothing more than an average coach but I would like other opinions and why.

Main reasons for this is his game plan or making the players play the game plan is poor and his ability to motivate the players seems fair at best.

Why isn't it right to sack RL?
Was it right to sack Watson? What about Blight?

We would all love stability and a long term coach, but it has to be the right one, not the one that happens to be there now.

Whichever way we go, just make a decision with the expertise on the board we have now, don't get outsiders in and absolve responsibility onto others that have no vested interest.

If RL is the right man, extend his contract, trade away all the players that are not buying in WHOEVER they are and get ones in that do. If he's not move him on and find the one that is. Do not wait for contracts to end.

The players might bleed now, but they will thank the board in the end. We as supporters may have 40 years to win one they only have 10-15 years at best.

Can we not waste another great career (roo) as we have with Harvs.

What we are throwing up at the moment is an embarassment to everyone involved in the club, we are worse than Melbourne.

Just make a decision and back it, leaving the status quo and hoping for the best is gutless.

[Behind Play]

Why don't we ask robert Walls?

[bigcarl]

I myself think he at the moment is nothing more than an average coach but I would like other opinions and why. Main reasons for this is his game plan or making the players play the game plan is poor and his ability to motivate the players seems fair at best.

i hope you are wrong, but going on available evidence it is hard to argue with your thoughts on this.

the game plan, in particular, stinks. i hate the "numbers behind the ball" philosophy. too often it leaves you with no-one at home to kick goals.

there's a lot to be said for "numbers in front of the ball". make position and give them something to kick to.

[St DAC]

The game plan looked OK against Hawthorn. And North. And it looked schizen against Collingwood. And WC.

Maybe it's not the game plan, but the effort?

[bigcarl]

The game plan looked OK against Hawthorn. And North.

we got out of jail against hawthorn and north. on both occasions we came back from a hefty deficit due to some brilliant individual efforts. a better game plan and we might not have been in the shyt to start with.

Maybe it's not the game plan, but the effort?

maybe and if it is then the coach has to wear some of that, too.

[saintspremiers]

The game plan looked OK against Hawthorn. And North. And it looked schizen against Collingwood. And WC.

Maybe it's not the game plan, but the effort?

exactly.

How can it all go pear shape so quickly is the question?

How can the players suddenly become lazy, overpaid so and so's that we all want to give a clip behind the ears for lack of trying on the field? (with a few exceptions of course!).

Is not having the opportunity to play in finals and/or make the top 4 not enough motivation even putting aside the Harvey factor?

Something doesn't smell right, but god only knows what it is.....

[karnaby]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with being dubious about Lyon. Many others will disagree, as we've seen umpteen times through the year.

At this stage, given where we are, and how we've gotten there, I think barring a monumental collapse over the next few weeks, we'd be ill advised not to play out the contract.

I've seen enough signs from this team to think Lyon is doing some good things. Our 2nd halves have become a strength, and I like that. I've now seen guys like Gram and Blake step up to a level where I'm happy that players are benefiting from his coaching. When the team pulls their fingers out late in games, our ability to dominate is really pleasing. From a managerial perspective, it's hard to fault list moves made under Lyon, so there's no pressing need to make a change.

What I'm not seeing is a working forward structure, in spite of what I view as an excellent array of talent (put Kosi, Roo and Milne in Hawthorn jumpers, and watch them all produce better results). I'm also concerned that Lyon seems to struggle to get the team going. I think it's really worrying that 4 quarter efforts are such a weakness. We do not perform well at contested groundball situations, mostly because of players going backwards in this area. I'm also concerned that it seems more than ever we're reliant on big performances from individual players, where the ethic is supposed to be more team oriented... it's no co-incedence that we've won games where Reiwoldt has been BOG.

On the balance, we've shown improvement between round 1 and where we are now. Lyon's got a 3 year contract, and while I'm not thrilled with his work, I think on the balance, there's more risk in not continuing than there is in continuing.

Lyon has yet to win me as a fan. In fact, I honestly don't really like his football approach, and he leaves me a bit cold in the press...<...snip...>

I agree with almost all of Bam's post except for the last couple of lines that I've edited out.

I'd prefer to see Lyon get his 3rd year BUT I want to know that a few areas of glaring deficiency are addressed:
1..our forward structure often gets broken down too easily, no opposition team is going to allow us to play exactly how we want but we often seem to fail to have adequate answers to address their tactics. I think it is a bit simplistic to just say sack Barker but I do hope his position is closely scrutinised by the club as they are really the only ones in a position to truly judge his effectiveness.
2..something needs to be done with the wiring between a lot of our players ears! I truly think a lot of our kicking issues are psychological, but on top of that I get the impression that the players are prone to dropping their heads at times & there certainly appears to be inconsistent intensity.
3..notwithstanding the above comment I think they need to do a huge amount of work done on kicking. It is easy to pot our forwards & they deserve every bit of it but our general field kicking can often be atrocious. Sometimes this can be glossed over because the intended recipient does make good the bad delivery but this often sees them running backwards or plucking a ball off the ground instead of getting it in an advantageous position so they can run on and be creative.

In summary I actually think we can be close to the mark although frustratingly it is not yet often enough. Sacking Lyon prematurely will only bring instability and guarantee another period of excuses & wasted opportunity. The current playing group can be competitive, in the rare moments that I allow myself to be (unduely??) optimistic I actually think that we are capable of matching it with the best teams, to me the frustration comes from failing to achieve that. Another year for Ross & the normal sort of culling process at the end of this season & I will find reasons to think we can continue to improve.