Saints are OVERCOACHED...

[WinnersOnly]

We are 3-4 games away from a season where we will bottom out.

Saints are OVERCOACHED...

I see 2009 as very very grim unless LYON wakes up, changes his game style and introduces some attacking flare to the game and allows the lads to play and attack the ball with confidence.

Our players are constantly second guessing themselves and this lapse in decision making causes pressure and turnovers. Look at Geelong there style of play is simple - back yourself and play on at all costs. Run to support your mates and share the ball around...which is what each individual is initially motivated by....

The SAINTS players are not enjoying their footy which is why kids play the game - enjoyment! If players aren't enjoying themselves then playing becomes a chore and thats the way the SAINTS appear at the moment - like there football is a chore not something they love playing!

[saintsRrising]

The Geelong game plan is not simple at all.
They are the highest possession team in the history of the game.

If we aped them exactly at present we would fail miserably as most of our players have poor footskills.

This is our biggest problem....we keep GIVING the ball back to the opposition.

The Pies first goal came from a Gram hanball to a Pie running past. The second Pie goal from a Gram fumble.

Gilbert continually ran straight (which is attacking) but then waisted it all by kicking stright to Pie defenders rather than team-mates.

etc etc etc

[perfectionist]

...The Geelong game plan is not simple at all.
They are the highest possession team in the history of the game...

Correct. The plan is based on a perfect defence, which they have. That is, win contested ball by mark or tackle and handpass direct to players who sweep forward, having left their man, in the full knowledge that a precision kick will find them running into goal. They never get caught on their wrong side for kicking, because they don't have a wrong side. They kick both feet.

Lacking a CHF, they had no option but to develop this plan. For years they toyed with fake FFs like Kingsley (who couldn't kick straight) and even Ottens but ditched this plan in 2006. The fact that they have recruited players who can kick and run since Thompson arrived seems to have alluded most people.

Grant Thomas had no time for skills development and practice and we are now reaping the rewards. The fact that Lyon also seems incapable of doing anything about it (getting Schneider and Dempster only compounded our problems in this regard) was there for all to see last night.

[Animal Enclosure]

The game plan is fine. The intensity and effort from numerous players is what continually lets us down.

I feel terribly sorry for Roo, BJ, Banger, Max, Lenny and Chips who are continually let down by their teammates.

[kaos theory]

Correct. The plan is based on a perfect defence, which they have. That is, win contested ball by mark or tackle and handpass direct to players who sweep forward, having left their man, in the full knowledge that a precision kick will find them running into goal. They never get caught on their wrong side for kicking, because they don't have a wrong side. They kick both feet.

Lacking a CHF, they had no option but to develop this plan. For years they toyed with fake FFs like Kingsley (who couldn't kick straight) and even Ottens but ditched this plan in 2006. The fact that they have recruited players who can kick and run since Thompson arrived seems to have alluded most people.

Grant Thomas had no time for skills development and practice and we are now reaping the rewards. The fact that Lyon also seems incapable of doing anything about it (getting Schneider and Dempster only compounded our problems in this regard) was there for all to see last night

Good comments on the cats & us....

Yes we have neglected some key areas of developing our game....Started with GT, and is RL also struggling to get it right?

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I agree that we need to emulate Geelong's willingness to play on and run to support each other more. However, we actually did do this (or try to) in the second half last night with mixed results. Firstly, when we tried to play this more *attacking* style our skill-level couldn't back it up. When your pushing so many players fwd you have to hit targets otherwise you're going to get hurt the other way...and thats what happened to us. How many times did Roo or Kosi or whoever lead up towards a teammate last night only for the pass to go flying over their head?

What im trying to get at is I think our problems are more complex than RL waking up and changes to the game style to be more attacking and be more like Geelong. Watch Geelong and see how well they use the ball and hit targets going into fwd 50.

[Gabba]

The Geelong game plan is not simple at all.
They are the highest possession team in the history of the game.

If we aped them exactly at present we would fail miserably as most of our players have poor footskills.

This is our biggest problem....we keep GIVING the ball back to the opposition.

The Pies first goal came from a Gram hanball to a Pie running past. The second Pie goal from a Gram fumble.

Gilbert continually ran straight (which is attacking) but then waisted it all by kicking stright to Pie defenders rather than team-mates.

etc etc etc

our other biggest problem was last night was letting the pies player run it out of our 50 to theirs with ease.... forwards are way too unaccountable when we lose possession...

oh, and apart from Roo we had nothing to go to... Kosi was nowhere to be seen for most of the night.

[Life Long Saint]

We can wax lyrical about the game plan and how good or bad it may be until the cows come home.

The bottom line is that the game plan is crap if the players can't execute it.

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

The good coaches like Matthews, Malthouse, Roos and Williams have adjusted the team's style to suit the players. We carry on with ours regardless. That is poor coaching.

Ross Lyon is clearly trying to get the players to play a style they are not capable of playing. We can do it in fits and starts. We have not played four quarters of good footy in any game this season!

The question that needs to be addressed is what is the club going to do about it? On form, we are odds-on to drop our last three games. If we somehow manage to scrape into the finals we are only making up the numbers. Injuries have not been a major factor this year. That is we have no worse run than any other team this season and much better than many others. It comes down to on-field performance.

We lack any consistent structure in the forward line yet we have two of the best marking forwards in the game.

People criticise players like Kosi and Dal because they go missing. Where is the protection from tags for Dal Santo? Why make Kosi constantly run up the ground when we don't have the ball? Where are the lesser players that need to step up when they happens? Our top six or seven are as good as any in the league. After that we fall away dramatically.

Players like Blake, Gwilt, Fiora, Schneider, Gardiner (both) and Gilbert have all been in the system long enough now. The next three weeks should be their time to show all that they deserve their spot in the St Kilda team.

I posted this in the game thread last night but it is worth reiterating. The entire football department must be subjected to a Geelong-like review. Starting with the coaching department (all of them).

We have a new batch of ex-players ready to start coaching careers. If we don't offer Harvey a job on the coaching panel we need our heads read. Hamill was one of the hardest working forwards we have ever had. Both of these players would have instant respect from the playing group (that's half the battle). How much respect do we think John Barker and Anthony Rock warrant?

Time to shake it up Saints and get some St Kilda people into the box!

[WayneJudson42]

We can wax lyrical about the game plan and how good or bad it may be until the cows come home.

The bottom line is that the game plan is crap if the players can't execute it.

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

The good coaches like Matthews, Malthouse, Roos and Williams have adjusted the team's style to suit the players. We carry on with ours regardless. That is poor coaching.

Ross Lyon is clearly trying to get the players to play a style they are not capable of playing. We can do it in fits and starts. We have not played four quarters of good footy in any game this season!

The question that needs to be addressed is what is the club going to do about it? On form, we are odds-on to drop our last three games. If we somehow manage to scrape into the finals we are only making up the numbers. Injuries have not been a major factor this year. That is we have no worse run than any other team this season and much better than many others. It comes down to on-field performance.

We lack any consistent structure in the forward line yet we have two of the best marking forwards in the game.

People criticise players like Kosi and Dal because they go missing. Where is the protection from tags for Dal Santo? Why make Kosi constantly run up the ground when we don't have the ball? Where are the lesser players that need to step up when they happens? Our top six or seven are as good as any in the league. After that we fall away dramatically.

Players like Blake, Gwilt, Fiora, Schneider, Gardiner (both) and Gilbert have all been in the system long enough now. The next three weeks should be their time to show all that they deserve their spot in the St Kilda team.

I posted this in the game thread last night but it is worth reiterating. The entire football department must be subjected to a Geelong-like review. Starting with the coaching department (all of them).

We have a new batch of ex-players ready to start coaching careers. If we don't offer Harvey a job on the coaching panel we need our heads read. Hamill was one of the hardest working forwards we have ever had. Both of these players would have instant respect from the playing group (that's half the battle). How much respect do we think John Barker and Anthony Rock warrant?

Time to shake it up Saints and get some St Kilda people into the box!

So, is it a ood gameplan if we can execute it? If it's YES, then we need to turn the over until we get palyers who can execute.

Dal?? Let's get real. Ablett and Judd would have to be the most heavily tagged players, yet still win matches. When did Dal do that??

Dal simply has to work harder if he wants to be a premier mid. I heard whispers years ago that he has so much talent, but he's happy to do only what it takes.

We are happy to can Fiora for unfulfilled talent, so why not Dal. He should be a top 5 mid.

[Life Long Saint]

So, is it a ood gameplan if we can execute it? If it's YES, then we need to turn the over until we get palyers who can execute.

The ultimate aim may be that but no coach can afford the time or access the talent he needs. In an era of drafting and salary cap a coach needs to adapt the game plan to suit the players on the list. The theory you've proposed would be wonderful for Barassi or Hafey in their day.

Dal?? Let's get real. Ablett and Judd would have to be the most heavily tagged players, yet still win matches. When did Dal do that??

Do our blokes protect Dal the way that Ablett is protected by his teammates? No need to answer the question as we all know what it is. Judd is Judd...Very few blokes keep him quiet in a game. He is an exceptional talent.

Dal simply has to work harder if he wants to be a premier mid. I heard whispers years ago that he has so much talent, but he's happy to do only what it takes.

No doubt he needs to work harder but he needs to be protected to use his talent. That talent is his ball use and decision making. He needs to be released to utilise that talent.

We are happy to can Fiora for unfulfilled talent, so why not Dal. He should be a top 5 mid.

Better than Judd, Ablett, Bartel, B Harvey, Hayes, Mitchell, Black, Cooney? Doubt it! Set some realistic expectations.

[Teflon]

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

This is crap and a cop out of the highest.

It translates to : "Lets build a game plan for players who cant hit the side of a barn"

The issues go deeper than game plan - they go to consistent skill levels which we dont have. Good against Hawks. Deplorable 3 weeks later.

Thats the players NOT game plan.

Players who again - and leading players at that - running into goal and missing is not game plan.

[plugger66]

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

This is crap and a cop out of the highest.

It translates to : "Lets build a game plan for players who cant hit the side of a barn"

The issues go deeper than game plan - they go to consistent skill levels which we dont have. Good against Hawks. Deplorable 3 weeks later.

Thats the players NOT game plan.

Players who again - and leading players at that - running into goal and missing is not game plan.

But what has caused that change in 3 weeks. How can we be good against the Hawks and for the next 3 weeks be as poor as we have been for 5 years. What has changed and who caused the change.

[Life Long Saint]

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

This is crap and a cop out of the highest.

It translates to : "Lets build a game plan for players who cant hit the side of a barn"

The issues go deeper than game plan - they go to consistent skill levels which we dont have. Good against Hawks. Deplorable 3 weeks later.

Thats the players NOT game plan.

Players who again - and leading players at that - running into goal and missing is not game plan.

I think that it is fair to say that the problem is a combination of game plan and execution. Our current game relies on possession and accurate disposal. Very few players in our team have the ability to consistently hit a target under pressure. This is also the coaches responsibility. Who are our "skills" coaches? Is that the domain of the assistants too? If so, they need to be fiercely reviewed at season's end.

On the game style, we look and play better when we take the game on. Alas, that is the exception rather than the rule. We did it in the second halves in the Hawthorn and North Melbourne games. It is although it is a plan B. Move Goddard, Gram and Fisher through the midfield seems to be the first move when things start to go awry. They are all attacking players and we start to get back into the game. What is wrong with backing our blokes against our opponents? It does not engender confidence in our ability when we play negating players like Dempster, Blake, Birss, L Fisher in the middle at centre bounces. I have seen two of these make up the starting three on-ballers too many times for it to not be part of the game plan.

I'm not advocating the return of Grant Thomas by a long shot. The facts, however, are not favourable for Ross Lyon's coaching ability.

[sunsaint]

The mark of a good coach is that they have a game plan that can be executed by the players at the club at the time. Ross Lyon's edict seems to be follow my game plan regardless.

This is crap and a cop out of the highest.

It translates to : "Lets build a game plan for players who cant hit the side of a barn"

The issues go deeper than game plan - they go to consistent skill levels which we dont have. Good against Hawks. Deplorable 3 weeks later.

Thats the players NOT game plan.

Players who again - and leading players at that - running into goal and missing is not game plan.

But what has caused that change in 3 weeks. How can we be good against the Hawks and for the next 3 weeks be as poor as we have been for 5 years. What has changed and who caused the change.

Ooh pick me, pick me, I know...
NDS 31 possessions, 6 inside 50's, 2 goals,