Team structure

[rexy]

Very confused by some of the thinking on the posts I am reading around the site. Many people want Gwilt and Allen dropped, which makes sense as they were our worst performers on Friday night "statistically", but many of the same people want to bring in a combination of Birss, Geary and Schneider for these guys?

I dont know if its just me but logic says that if you drop a couple of bigger guys you probably want to bring in a couple of similar types, unless you had say the Dogs who arent very big. The Hawks are a large and heavy side who win ball in close and move quickly into their forward line where they have tall forwards, side selected surely must suit our opposition?

Also, It would be a mistake to move Kosi out of the ruck IMO, has played his best footy for the year in the last 2 weeks and saved our arses in the last line of defense more than once. hard to do from Perm. CHF.

[Otiman]

Also, It would be a mistake to move Kosi out of the ruck IMO, has played his best footy for the year in the last 2 weeks and saved our arses in the last line of defense more than once. hard to do from Perm. CHF.

Roo to CHF, M Gardiner/King to FF, Kosi to play the floating follower role.

[Quixote]

Very confused by some of the thinking on the posts I am reading around the site. Many people want Gwilt and Allen dropped, which makes sense as they were our worst performers on Friday night "statistically", but many of the same people want to bring in a combination of Birss, Geary and Schneider for these guys?

I dont know if its just me but logic says that if you drop a couple of bigger guys you probably want to bring in a couple of similar types, unless you had say the Dogs who arent very big. The Hawks are a large and heavy side who win ball in close and move quickly into their forward line where they have tall forwards, side selected surely must suit our opposition?

Also, It would be a mistake to move Kosi out of the ruck IMO, has played his best footy for the year in the last 2 weeks and saved our arses in the last line of defense more than once. hard to do from Perm. CHF.

Very solid post!


Allen, although for mine our worst, affords us a structure which seems to work. If it is to happen, the obvious replacement for him is Ferg.

Same for Jimmy - he lets our talented backs get up the ground! If he was to be replaced - L Fisher? Doubtful, and a step in the wrong direction for mine.

I was thinking right after the game that it would be a bold move NOT to drop Jimmy - and I think it would pay dividends, both for us and his own confidence.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I was thinking right after the game that it would be a bold move NOT to drop Jimmy - and I think it would pay dividends, both for us and his own confidence.

I've been thinking that since seeing the statline.

Like you, I don't think Leigh Fisher's the right replacement, and ditto for Ferg (seems more likely to get his last shot in place of Allen). It seems tough to go like for like there, unless we want to bring in Raph (has he even been playing at Casey?).

Gwilt had a dirty night with the umpires, and it wasn't a great outing. Back the kid and tell him we've got faith he can be better. I'd rather too agro than no heart, and the skills are there.

I'd be thinking of erring towards no changes this week to instill confidence, in the knowledge that if that doesn't work, there will be a chance to assess whose up for what job after this game which we're expected to lose.

[Solar]

I am leaning towards the dropping of gwilt only because BJ seems to be playing his role currently and bringing in schneider might allow us to move a mid like mini down back as a stopper.

On the allen thought, it all comes back to where you see kosi IMO.

One side of it would be that Kosi is a lovely key forward who will give us more then allen. Thus allen is dropped, kosi goes to key forward (with roo continuing to float. Gardiner comes in to ruck and king/gardiner pinch hit during the game when we want to have two deep forwards.

The other thought is that kosi doesn't play the key forward very well and is a ruck/ruck rover at heart. Does his best work as a 2nd ruck who floats back, works hard up to centre half forward then spring hard at packs 10 out from the big sticks. If this is the case, unless we want to stick roo at a traditional CHF and Kosi at FF, keeping Allen in the team gives us the opportunity and structure to not have to play like this. Allen at FF, roo as a floating CHF means kosi can float around the ground, take heaps of marks and become the match winner we have craved.

Toss a coin, I would have the former when we come up against two GREAT rucks OR BIG ruckman. Go with the former if the opposition rucks are thin or young (see dogs).

[plugger66]

Also, It would be a mistake to move Kosi out of the ruck IMO, has played his best footy for the year in the last 2 weeks and saved our arses in the last line of defense more than once. hard to do from Perm. CHF.

Roo to CHF, M Gardiner/King to FF, Kosi to play the floating follower role.

Why would you think either of those guys could even slightly play forward. Neither can take a contested mark and both are to slow on the lead. Just because you are big doesnt mean you can play forward.

[Otiman]

Roo to CHF, M Gardiner/King to FF, Kosi to play the floating follower role.

Why would you think either of those guys could even slightly play forward. Neither can take a contested mark and both are to slow on the lead. Just because you are big doesnt mean you can play forward.

Putting Koschitzke as a permanent forward has not worked for us this year. He cops the best defender and struggles to make an impact.

Having him play up the ground and floating into the F50 will allow him to possibly exploit a mismatch when he nears the goals.

It may not necessarily be the ruckmen resting there, but i'd not have Kosi at FF, certainly not for the whole match anyway.

Ferguson isn't playing well enough at the moment to be called up. Allen can't be relied on at present, so who else do you put there? Sending Gwilt up forward could be an interesting gamble.

[WayneJudson42]

Let the back 6 settle. Gwilt wil be ok. Not the only one who makes mistakes.

Allen OTOH may have 2 make way

[plugger66]

Roo to CHF, M Gardiner/King to FF, Kosi to play the floating follower role.

Why would you think either of those guys could even slightly play forward. Neither can take a contested mark and both are to slow on the lead. Just because you are big doesnt mean you can play forward.

Putting Koschitzke as a permanent forward has not worked for us this year. He cops the best defender and struggles to make an impact.

Having him play up the ground and floating into the F50 will allow him to possibly exploit a mismatch when he nears the goals.

It may not necessarily be the ruckmen resting there, but i'd not have Kosi at FF, certainly not for the whole match anyway.

Im not disagreeing with that. I would do what they have done with him the last 2 weeks and start him there and instead of rucking him ruck rove him to give him time on the ball as that seems to be where he gets his confidence but we cannot put those 2 ruckmen in the forward line as they are not up to that position.

[WayneJudson42]

Gardi & King up fwd would give us the same probs we had with Gtrain

[hAyES]

Gwilt needs to get the hell out of this team. This guy could be the worst footballer going 'round at the moment. Just a stupid player. I'm yet to see any improvement from him yet.

[starsign]

Gwilt needs to get the hell out of this team. This guy could be the worst footballer going 'round at the moment. Just a stupid player. I'm yet to see any improvement from him yet.

strongly disagree....if he's a stupid player in your opinion then I'm affraid this is a stupid comment for mine!!

he's been going reasonably well and giving us the opportunity to bolster up the midfield to great effect His main problem IMHO is that he's too careless with his tackling and gives away to many high ones Surely this can be worked on as he has been playing a very valuable team role, and is worth persevering with.

[hAyES]

There are a couple of reasons why I'm not 100% behind putting Kosi in the ruck if we have a full team:

King and Gardiner, King in particular have shown that they can tap the ball down the throat of our midfielders. Most of the time when Kosi jumps up he doesn't really know where he's going to tap the ball.

The other one is we don't have another FF option. I don't count Allen as an option because he hasn't really done anything and hasn't even looked promising for mine, though it is probably too early to tell.

What we need to work on is delivering the ball to him. I think a huge reason why he has struggled at FF is because the delivery to him has been pathetic unless it's Riewoldt kicking it to him. It's almost like the players have so much faith in his contested marking ability that they just think they can kick it somewhere near him and he'll mark it. That's not always the case.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

For the time being and the 2008 season, you'd suspect that at some point M Gardiner comes in for Allen, with Kosi playing FF, because Kosi (FF) + Gardiner (Ruck) is probably > Allen/C Gardiner/Ferg (FF) + Kosi (Ruck). Had Gehrig not completely broken down, it could be a different story.

There will probably be an effort to get Kosi to more contests, and let him roam more than has been the case, and occasionally to exploit young ruckmen the way he did against Kreuzer. Nonetheless, for the first time in a long time, we've got more quality rucking options than tall forward options.

The opportunity going forward will be for McEvoy, Allen, Raph Clarke etc. - develop their game to the point where they can step in and take marks and kick goals, the Kosi in the ruck debate is far from finished.

[maverick]

Roo to CHF, M Gardiner/King to FF, Kosi to play the floating follower role.

Why would you think either of those guys could even slightly play forward. Neither can take a contested mark and both are to slow on the lead. Just because you are big doesnt mean you can play forward.

Putting Koschitzke as a permanent forward has not worked for us this year. He cops the best defender and struggles to make an impact.

Having him play up the ground and floating into the F50 will allow him to possibly exploit a mismatch when he nears the goals.

It may not necessarily be the ruckmen resting there, but i'd not have Kosi at FF, certainly not for the whole match anyway.

Im not disagreeing with that. I would do what they have done with him the last 2 weeks and start him there and instead of rucking him ruck rove him to give him time on the ball as that seems to be where he gets his confidence but we cannot put those 2 ruckmen in the forward line as they are not up to that position.[/quote

Could not agree more, at best they could rest there for 5-10 minutes to break up play a bit.

Imagine how much run the Hawks would generate off them coming out of our forward line.....

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I dont know if its just me but logic says that if you drop a couple of bigger guys you probably want to bring in a couple of similar types, unless you had say the Dogs who arent very big. The Hawks are a large and heavy side who win ball in close and move quickly into their forward line where they have tall forwards, side selected surely must suit our opposition?

Also, It would be a mistake to move Kosi out of the ruck IMO, has played his best footy for the year in the last 2 weeks and saved our arses in the last line of defense more than once. hard to do from Perm. CHF.

totally agree rexy. Kosi and King have combined well as a ruck duo. Letting Kosi do the ruck and roam around the ground at times free's him up. Kosi's ruckwork was good on friday night, not as good as Kingy's but he more than held his own. I don't the side would be balanced with Kingy, Kosi and M.Gardiner in the team. It didn't work earlier in the year and i don't see why we should bring in M.Gardiner on the back of 3 wins.

[saintsRrising]

King and Gardi to ruck

Roo to FF

Kosi to CHF

But both Roo and Kosi to havea 007 licence to roam...

With Kosi at CHF it is easier for him to play as an extra mid.

[ausfatcat]

my take similar to saintsrisings

King and Gardi to ruck


Roo CHF free to raom anywhere depending on who plays on him

Kosi CHF running back to the goal line

Milne FF stay at home with schneider/allen (bring the ball to ground)

[Bernard Shakey]

Gwilt: 9 possessions; 6 turnovers; 4 frees against (at least 1 50 metre) and gave up 4 goals.

Anyone who thinks that warrants another game is on another planet.

Allen didn't do much stats wise, but his effort was great and set up a couple of Milne's goals.

Personally I think Gardy and Geary (2 BOGs for Casey) will come in for Gwilt and Allen.

[nicko016]

For me its Allen and Gwilt out for M. Gardiner and Schneider. Schneider is a talented player and has played a good game in the seconds an should come back. Regarding Kosi, he'll struggle against Hawthorn's bigger ruckmen. Plus, we were lucky that Riewodlt was playing well when pushed deep which meant Kosi could paly ruck at times. However, if Kosi is playing ruck and Riewodlt starts to struggle we'll suddenly fund ourselves in trouble with a lack of options.

Furthermore, just becuase Gardiner comes in doesn't mean Kosi has to be stuck to FF. He doesn't have to play in the ruck to run around and can roam effectively playing as a CHF or just as a roaming follower. Plus, Gardy can be given periods up forward and at the very least it will cause the Hawks to reshuffle their defence. Basically, start Kosi at FF and if he can't get into the game give him a brief stint in the ruck and push Gardy forward or alternatively let him play as roaming follower.

With Kosi as our #2 ruck we don't have much of a back-up plan if he struggles in the ruck or Riewodlt struggles up forward becuase Kosi would not be able to be shifted from the ruck as King will not be able to ruck a whole game.

[WayneJudson42]

Yep, let's develop the kids. But only if they can guarantee 100% perfect games

Otherwise drop them.

On this logic, we should have dropped 90% of the team this year.

Our "super stars" can have a bad game or 2, but that's ok, coz it's an injury or a confidence thing.

But when this happens to the whipping boys... the knives come out.

Give me a farking break. If all we do is rotate the bottom 3 players every week, we go nowhere.

If you want confidence, give them a run. After 6 to 8 games, then make a call.

Go the FRO!