phatprick really is a nasty s.o.b.....

[stinger]

House of Ross Lyon still haunted by Grant Thomas' ghost



Patrick Smith | May 30, 2008

YOU could hardly blame us. It was a simple mistake which we need to correct. St Kilda president Greg Westaway is not, repeat not, a Trappist monk. You may have gained that view from our most recent column which suggested Westaway had said absolutely nought since taking control at Moorabbin.

Well, it is wrong. As of Wednesday this week anyway. Westaway is not a member of the order of monks who have taken a vow of silence. He is not even a nun who knows when to bite her tongue. On the very day readers thought we had edged Westaway closer to sainthood it proved a premature promotion.

This week Westaway has been quoted at length as he launched a strong defence of his coach Ross Lyon. He thinks Lyon - who has won 15 of the 31 games he has coached and is in his second year - should be the St Kilda coach for the next 10 years. Better still, Westaway might even run the idea past his board. Damn good of him.

The last time Westaway said anything anybody bothered to note was this: "A board of a football club has to lead by example and we will be adhering to that - that there will be no illicit or illegal drugs taken by any board member. Our members will also sign a policy that they not be intoxicated at board meetings, or club functions or in front of players."

That was last October just after Westaway had been announced head of a rebel ticket to take on incumbent president Rod Butterss and his board. Westaway was quick to qualify his remarks saying his observations were based on nothing more than "innuendo and talk, and that's all it is". It was an inflammatory statement - though Westaway said it was not directed at anybody in particular - which sullied the reputation of the St Kilda board and football administrators in general.

Since then he pulled on his habit, picked up his rosary beads, disappeared into a monastery and has not been heard of since. Until Wednesday when he broke through the chapel door with an axe. His remarks in October were offensive, his remarks on Wednesday plainly jibberish.

Anyone who has worked closely with Lyon considers him to be a first-rate coach, the equal of anybody going around, but his record - at the moment - is one that might suggest everybody should just watch and wait. Lyon is probably of that view as well. After all he did take over a side that finished in the top eight. Under Lyon it missed the finals last year and appears destined to finish in the bottom half again this year.

Vocal presidents are required in the very odd environment of AFL football. They help lift profile and they enthuse pessimistic supporters. But there remains an expectation that they speak sense. Westaway should jot that down for future reference.

Westaway's naive comments underline a greater problem at the club. It is a lack of leadership not only off the field but on the field as well. What was touted as going to be the great legacy of former coach Grant Thomas has come to nothing.

Thomas, a successful coach who took the Saints to consecutive preliminary finals, introduced a policy where the captaincy was rotated on an annual basis. When he appointed Aaron Hamill as skipper for the 2003 season to replace club legend and dual Brownlow medallist Robert Harvey, Thomas justified his system thus: "I think it takes a year or two to grow into the leadership, but I don't think leadership and captaincy necessarily go hand-in-hand. Any one of these guys (Harvey, Nathan Burke, Andrew Thompson, Max Hudghton, Nick Riewoldt, Lenny Hayes) could captain this club tomorrow," he said.

"If he (Hamill) didn't continue to be one of the great captains the following year, I'd have a real question mark on his character. If an individual needs to be captain to do what he has to do, I think that puts a question mark on their integrity. We're trying to build a band of leadership, and I think captaincy provides that opportunity."

So under Thomas, Harvey begat Hamill, who begat Hayes, who begat Riewoldt, who begat Luke Ball. For all Thomas' spinning of the captaincy he has left St Kilda bereft of leadership. When Nick Dal Santo, running close to the boundary, opted to attempt a goal with an intricate banana kick in the match against Brisbane last Sunday, he should have looked to pass off to a team-mate. It was symptomatic of the way the team played and any sense that the club had strategic or spiritual direction on the field evaporated in that moment. Immediately afterwards Lyon described his team as soft. He could have said rudderless.

Thomas inherited Harvey when he took over from Malcolm Blight late in the 2001 season. The coach then had one full year with Harvey before Hamill became skipper. There appears no doubt that Harvey was more than miffed by the decision. He had served under Danny Frawley for eight years and the shared captaincy of Stewart Loewe and Burke for four years. Around him the other champions of his era began lengthy and exceptional terms as captain Nathan Buckley (nine years), Michael Voss (six), James Hird (eight) and Mark Ricciuto (seven).

The decision to appoint kids like Ball, Hayes and Riewoldt put inordinate pressure on those players and the sight of Riewoldt sobbing in the stands after being confronted by some angry Lions at the start of the 2005 season remains indisputable proof that the rotating policy of Thomas was an unfair burden.

But the system permitted Thomas to remain the dominant personality at the club and the constant interchanging of captains allowed no player to build a power base to oppose him. This column has suggested before that Thomas was, in fact, a cult and not a coach. And when he argued he was building a layer of leadership, Thomas was annually dismantling it.

But it worked for Thomas and his players and the group defied a wretched run of injuries to fall just one goal short of toppling Port Adelaide, the eventual premier, in the first preliminary final of 2004.

Thomas actually created a leadership vacuum that he filled with his overwhelming personality. He was, to the players and most of the media, a football swami. It did the trick for him and his players. It is quickly killing Lyon and the team of 2008."

[bobmurray]

It's an observation as to what is wrong at StKilda,i didn't mind the article...

Reiwoldt is the best player but he shouldn't be captain,it should have been Hayes...

Phatprick doesn't like StKilda,he loves having a dig,not many people read his articles so in reality he is irrelevant.....

[iwantmeseats]

Thanks for posting the article. I caqnt think of a single reason anyone would read the Australian, so I wouldnt have seen it otherwise.

Phatpryk, get a job at a REAL paper.

[Teflon]

Smiths a turd that is correct but his central point about Thomas leaving us bereft of leadership is valid if you go by players on field effort now - it appears apart from Hayes/Harvey the rest cant stand up.

It makes you laugh and it makes a mockery of the ridiculous policy of "rotating captains to generate leadership". IF that policy ever worked we should have a heap of options and everyone standing up on field....we dont.

The rest of the article is a history lesson and regurgitating tripe.

[maverick]

Smiths a turd that is correct but his central point about Thomas leaving us bereft of leadership is valid if you go by players on field effort now - it appears apart from Hayes/Harvey the rest cant stand up.

It makes you laugh and it makes a mockery of the ridiculous policy of "rotating captains to generate leadership". IF that policy ever worked we should have a heap of options and everyone standing up on field....we dont.

The rest of the article is a history lesson and regurgitating tripe.

Its all garbage, in GT's day, the list coached itself and won games despite a coach that had no idea, only on occasions was GT's interfere so great, it caused the odd loss...

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

It would be funny if it was happening to another club...

The media are a joke, and so are anyone involved in the decision to sack GT for being so gutless as to give rise to such garbage as this.

[Teflon]

Smiths a turd that is correct but his central point about Thomas leaving us bereft of leadership is valid if you go by players on field effort now - it appears apart from Hayes/Harvey the rest cant stand up.

It makes you laugh and it makes a mockery of the ridiculous policy of "rotating captains to generate leadership". IF that policy ever worked we should have a heap of options and everyone standing up on field....we dont.

The rest of the article is a history lesson and regurgitating tripe.

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

Spot on Mav - GT was THE MAN to take us all the wayu...had he not been crippled by injury EVERY year w'ed have 4 flags now and umpteenth leaders cause rotating captains just generates leadership by magic.,...yeah thats how it works....

And why wouldn they all just get out of the way and allow GT the luxury of "exiting Harvey in/out" like he wanted...yeah thats the problem we have now.

At least we NOW Have a list that outside the top 20 draft picks is laden with second tier, smart selections making an impact at AFL leve cause has was a DEVELOPER of men..........

And why cant Lyon pull somthing out of his arse???? just must be useless I reckon....

F@rk me....

[bobmurray]

And why cant Lyon pull somthing out of his arse???? just must be useless I reckon....

I think he has been pulling rejects out of his arse and they haven't measured up,he's carried on where GT left off but to his credit he hasn't traded away good draft picks.....yet....

[Teflon]

And why cant Lyon pull somthing out of his arse???? just must be useless I reckon....

I think he has been pulling rejects out of his arse and they haven't measured up,he's carried on where GT left off but to his credit he hasn't traded away good draft picks.....yet....

AT LEAST his reject - being 2 ruckmen - cost us NOTHING and were to fix a ruck mess that was left to fester for years.... ....cant say the same for Fergus Watts or Barry Brooks....

[maverick]

Smiths a turd that is correct but his central point about Thomas leaving us bereft of leadership is valid if you go by players on field effort now - it appears apart from Hayes/Harvey the rest cant stand up.

It makes you laugh and it makes a mockery of the ridiculous policy of "rotating captains to generate leadership". IF that policy ever worked we should have a heap of options and everyone standing up on field....we dont.

The rest of the article is a history lesson and regurgitating tripe.

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

Spot on Mav - GT was THE MAN to take us all the wayu...had he not been crippled by injury EVERY year w'ed have 4 flags now and umpteenth leaders cause rotating captains just generates leadership by magic.,...yeah thats how it works....

And why wouldn they all just get out of the way and allow GT the luxury of "exiting Harvey in/out" like he wanted...yeah thats the problem we have now.

At least we NOW Have a list that outside the top 20 draft picks is laden with second tier, smart selections making an impact at AFL leve cause has was a DEVELOPER of men..........

And why cant Lyon pull somthing out of his arse???? just must be useless I reckon....

F@rk me....

Don't you get tired of writing the same cr@p all the time.
The facts are, you have been sucked in by the media, and you can't take it.

You can't compare Lyon to GT, they are different, what you can compare is results. 3 finals series in 5 full seasons of coaching, Lyon will have none in two, he's got some work to do.

I won't respond to anything more you write back to me so don't waste your cut and paste.

[Teflon]

Smiths a turd that is correct but his central point about Thomas leaving us bereft of leadership is valid if you go by players on field effort now - it appears apart from Hayes/Harvey the rest cant stand up.

It makes you laugh and it makes a mockery of the ridiculous policy of "rotating captains to generate leadership". IF that policy ever worked we should have a heap of options and everyone standing up on field....we dont.

The rest of the article is a history lesson and regurgitating tripe.

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

Spot on Mav - GT was THE MAN to take us all the wayu...had he not been crippled by injury EVERY year w'ed have 4 flags now and umpteenth leaders cause rotating captains just generates leadership by magic.,...yeah thats how it works....

And why wouldn they all just get out of the way and allow GT the luxury of "exiting Harvey in/out" like he wanted...yeah thats the problem we have now.

At least we NOW Have a list that outside the top 20 draft picks is laden with second tier, smart selections making an impact at AFL leve cause has was a DEVELOPER of men..........

And why cant Lyon pull somthing out of his arse???? just must be useless I reckon....

F@rk me....

Don't you get tired of writing the same cr@p all the time.
The facts are, you have been sucked in by the media, and you can't take it.

You can't compare Lyon to GT, they are different, what you can compare is results. 3 finals series in 5 full seasons of coaching, Lyon will have none in two, he's got some work to do.

I won't respond to anything more you write back to me so don't waste your cut and paste.

Thats pretty hard hitting mav...luck your not responding....

Still cant compare GT and Lyon I agree - one had a list in absolute peak condition - the other has got to rejuvinate a list where all its experience is gone or in decline. Your right Lyons got work to do.

Nah...you keep banging on your usual drivel that GT was your messiah........we're lucky to have you Mav keeping us all safe from the media.........I mean no ones got you sucked in...

[mischa]

Its all garbage, in GT's day, the list coached itself and won games despite a coach that had no idea, only on occasions was GT's interfere so great, it caused the odd loss...

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

It would be funny if it was happening to another club...

The media are a joke, and so are anyone involved in the decision to sack GT for being so gutless as to give rise to such garbage as this.

Will just say I completely agree with you. The bulls*** GT had to confront every single day of his coaching shows no signs of dissipating and he isn't even there. Disgusting. Who was it said "Tell a lie often enough the more people come to believe it" GT, I'm betting, knows this only too well.

[JeffDunne]

Patrick might be nasty but he is at least consistent.

Pity can't be said for some of the hate-filled simpletons that inhabit this board.

Actually I lie, Patrick’s opinion is as fluid as their’s when he's called out on their fabrications.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Patrick once call Thomas ‘Coach of the Year’?

LOL.

[JeffDunne]

As for Patrick's views on leadership, I suspect it's as intellectually barren as our mate Teffers.

The Eagles won a flag and narrowly missed another with leaders that either had a straw up their nose or were dinning out with Richard Pratt (or both). Doing runners from booze buses, jumping on cabs, belting team-mates . . . all perfect examples of what club leadership means.

Pity for us we don't have leadership like that!

Bloody Thomas!!!

[StSteven]

Excellent summary of our woes. I consider this to be a very good analysis of what has happened that has prevented our "excellent list" not achieving its potential.

Leaderhip has been neglected due to GT's obsession with being a control freak and Butters obsession with being "one of the boys". Our club has been the "plaything" for the "boys" for far too long.

[meher baba]

Well, of course it must be the rotating captaincy policy instituted 4-5 years ago which is the chief cause of our current malaise, rather than anything that is going on at the club ATM.

It is fabulous forensic work by Smith to trace back the antecedents of a poor decision by NDS last weekend to a decision to replace Hamill with Riewoldt as captain at the beginning of 2005!!

It's certainly convinced me: I've been going along for 18 months now thinking that the decision to sack GT and replace him with Lyon was a huge mistake. But Smith's article has turned me.

Particularly this line

Anyone who has worked closely with Lyon considers him to be a first-rate coach, the equal of anybody going around

If it's good enough for Patrick, it's good enough for me.

I now realise that Lyon is an absolute supercoach: better than Sheedy, Mathews, Williams, Bomber Thompson, or anyone. It's very reassuring for me.

The only bit I didn't quite get was what Smith thought was so wrong with what Westaway said. I mean, surely it is pretty reasonable for the club president to what to retain a coach who is the "equal of anybody going around" for the next ten years? Seem like basic commonsense to me.

[starsign]

agree with you Baba
the article is full of contradictory claptrap!

our footy club situation at present is like a back of worms , and everyone from the medi down through to our own site hear hs had a go at pulling it to pieces and trying to analyse our present predicament from every which-way angle possibe

and there are as many answers as there are questions, but the simple facts are it is all mere conjecture

I only wish the team can just turn it around ,starting today and play like we know they can ,and string a few wins together. Then all these self acclaimed experts can get off our case for a while

Old Jeansey liked to reduce thgings to simple terms.....
likening team lists to a kilo of snags for eg :
you can fry them, boil them, curry them whatever but in the end they're still sausages
and while we've got the ball the opposition hasn't ,
kick a bigger score and you win
I recon for our own sanity for a bit we just gotta concentrate on going out there and giving everthing you've got for the jumper and your teamates and the rest will take care of itself.
And anyone out there not prepared to do this each week for this footy club can bugger off as far as I'm concerned
After a long suffering 60 years and all the current infintissable disection and analysis I'm going back to the old Yabby Approach
just go out there and bloody win whatever it takes!

[Zippy]

I must say, I find the argument that Thomas left us bereft of leadership because we played with so much more on-field effort when he was coach very persuasive.

Obviously, Thomas is the reason Lyon can't fire up the players, and the hungry, motivated, list we had under GT was a bizarre coincidence.

I'm starting to feel like Alice in wonderland.

Repeat after me:

- Thomas was the world's worst coach, despite taking injury-ravaged teams to three finals series's in a row, including 2 prelims.
- The reason Lyon hasn't been able to get the best out of our list is Grant Thomas's influence. There's no reason for Lyon to try and improve.

If Lyon manages to find a way to set the list on fire, and we end up playing like heroes, does that mean that Grant Thomas is the reason, and he left us with good leadership after all? Or maybe, a year and a half on, we can accept that Grant Thomas was a scapegoat, and Lyon has to carry his own can?

[cwrcyn]

Old Fatprick just can't let it go, can he?

Another example of quite appalling journalism - full of giant holes and outrageous leaps of queer logic (ie no logic). His hatred of Thomas has been pathological from the start.

Give it up, you big fat, pompous buffoon. Go and have a threesome with John Laws and Alan Jones you turd of all turds!!!!

[Teflon]

As for Patrick's views on leadership, I suspect it's as intellectually barren as our mate Teffers.

The Eagles won a flag and narrowly missed another with leaders that either had a straw up their nose or were dinning out with Richard Pratt (or both). Doing runners from booze buses, jumping on cabs, belting team-mates . . . all perfect examples of what club leadership means.

Pity for us we don't have leadership like that!

Bloody Thomas!!!

what does our leadership concerns have to dowith the Eagles and THEIR success in Grand finals?

Are you entirely stupid?

Dont answer that...

[n1ck]

Its all garbage, in GT's day, the list coached itself and won games despite a coach that had no idea, only on occasions was GT's interfere so great, it caused the odd loss...

Now FFS, we have the best coach going round, but the famous list is now no good, supposedly because GT's interference was too great...

It would be funny if it was happening to another club...

Very, very fair call.

3 years ago, Grant Thomas was the worst match day coach in the league. BUT - he had the best list in the league. The players coached themselves to two preliminary finals. Anyone could have done that, including the seven dwarves, ren and stimpy, and any bathwater drinking buffoon. Our leadership group was massive. Guys willing to put their bodies on the line, week in, week out. Guys busting a gut for the colours. BUT - we lost those two prelims because of bad coaching.

Today, we have a magificent coach. Tactically, the best in the business. But this 'superior being', just isnt quite superior enough, to win games with the rabble list we have. What a shocking list. Even almost fully fit, with all its best players on the park, its just no good, no depth, soft - mentally and physically - the list is a rabble with no leadership. Cobbled together by the worst coach in history.

Makes perfect sense, dun'it?

The same players coached themselves (because we had a useless drongo in charge) to three finals series in a row, including two consecutive preliminary finals apperances. BUT - with a brilliant coach, the same players struggle to win a game against half decent opposition.

Blame GT!

[ctqs]

Yes he is a bitter old so-and-so. He symbolises/epitomises the problem with the game today i.e. its earnestness. I haven't read his stuff regularly for years, and on the occaisions I do these days, he's always seems to be calling on someone to resign for something. Pffft.
The article is wrong in a number of areas. It DID help develop players as leaders. It had NOTHING to do with ensuring players never built up a power base against him. I never heard too many of those players come out bagging him. On the contrary. Wasn't there a concern that the players were too close to Thomas?
I've never understood why people give so much weight to the opinion of journalists. I know a lot of them. I may even be one myself. Perhaps that's an advantage because it means I don't read a lot of opinion pieces. Knowing those involved in the industry, I don't place any more weight on their thoughts than I would on the beliefs of any other mate or colleague.
Just because someone has a louder voice - in that it reaches a larger audience - it doesn't give their opinion any more weight, expertise or importance. That's like saying the person who shouts the loudest wins the debate, even if there's no logic behind it.
By getting worked up by what they write, and therefore allowing them to control our emotions, we only feed their sense of self worth.
Stuff that.