How did Ross Lyon come to lose his way? (Discussion starter)

[meher baba]

I have been turning my mind lately to what it is that might have gone wrong in the football department over the last couple of seasons.

I'm not thinking about the list, how GT wasted draft picks 15-70, etc, etc.: I'm sick to death of hearing about that particular issue.

Nor -even though I think they are issues - do I want to talk about Ross Lyon's personality or even the specifics of his "game plan".

I'm wanting to look at the overall approach he has taken to his job and suggest that he has made a number of crucial misjudgements that have brought him to the point where he is now sitting in the departure lounge with, I would say, a much worse than 50/50 chance of still being in his job by the start of the next trade week. Nothing I raise is particularly new: I'm trying to amplify some of the points that other posters have made on here in recent weeks in the hope of getting a serious discussion going about Lyon's strengths and weaknesses.


1. Failure to go for incremental rather than radical change.

It was generally agreed by all experts that the Saints of 2006 were basically a well-performing club with a pretty damn good list: the brief for Lyon was not to turn around a basket case, but to "take us to the next level". Coaches in AFL and other forms of sport who take over clubs that are performing ok generally try to institute the changes they want to make as slowly as possible.

On this basis, Lyon would have been advised to find himself at least one assistant coach with a strong recent background at the club: ideally Bundy, but if he said no, perhaps Burkey, or Cripps or perhaps a retiring player like Peckett or Powell. Instead he brought in a whole bunch of new faces.

He also set about almost immediately trying to make a radical change to the way the team played. Within 7 or 8 weeks, we were playing chipalotto, putting lots of players behind the ball, retreating, corralling, etc. And, not surprisingly, the players looked very uncomfortable. The experience of other clubs has shown that it takes quite a while - perhaps 3 seasons or more - to completely revamp a team's playing style. Unless it is done sensitively and incrementally, the risk of failure is surely huge, particularly when a coach is inheriting a reasonably successful team rather than a basket case.


2. Failure to build the game plan around the teams existing strengths and weaknesses.

In most forms of team sport, individual players are allocated specific roles that they are deemed to be particularly good at, plus some of them understudy one or more other roles which they can also fill at a pinch for the overall good of the team. Some players are utilities and can play a wide range of positions, and a select few have highly specific skills which restrict the range of roles they can play.

A good coach blends and manipulates the player list with the aim of achieving a good balance in meeting the sometimes conflicting priorities of (i) ensuring the most talented players are selected to play and (ii) that each differing role is occupied by the player/s with the greatest talent for performing that role.

Lyon seems to go about his work in quite a different way. He seems to have very fixed ideas of what sort of players he wants to play where: two genuine ruckmen, 3 or more taggers, 3 or more in and under players, 2 or more tall forwards, some fast outside players, etc. We have had a lot of criticism on this forum of how slow our midfield has been, but I think that quite a bit of the apparent slowness of our team comes from the fact that we have quite often had 2 lumbering ruckmen, 2 lumbering forwards plus Riewoldt (who is mobile but not exactly nimble), a number of relatively slow taggers, etc.

A good example of how this strategy hasn't worked all that well has been in relation to Jason Blake. I know that lots on here don't agree with me, but I personally believe that his best position by far is to play as second ruckman. I don't really think he has the skills to play anywhere else. But Lyon, while wanting to play him regularly in the top 22, doesn't want him in the ruck. Likewise, Leigh Fisher is far better as a small defender than as a tagger, and Nick Dal Santo is far better as an attacking midfielder than as a defensive one. And some of the other taggers, who lack other skills - Dempster, Attard et al - are not really worth bothering with at all in my opinion. (Baker is an exception, because he actually has ball skills.)


3. Failure to keep it simple.

Most footballers are honest, salt of the earth types, but are no more intelligent than you would expect from males aged 18-30 who neglected their education for sport (the likes of Bally and Rix excepted) and who generally spend most of their time training, watching videos, partying and chasing girls. Also, an AFL football field is a chaotic place where everything is happening extremely quickly.

Complex game plans which require extensive use of whiteboards and which require players to remember much more than about 5 specific tactical things per game are a total no no. Some players seem to be able to carry a reasonable chunk of the coach's thinking processes with them onto the playing field - James Hird, Chris Judd and Adam Goodes are three who come to mind - but these are extremely rare. The rest need to be drilled to things instinctively rather than educated to make lots of complex choices and judgements. It is the coach who should be doing the thinking on and before match day re matchups, structure, interchanges, etc., etc.

Lyon seems to believe that his main role is develop the technical and tactical abilities of the players, and then to sit back and simply watch it all happen. This approach works in some sports - soccer and cricket come to mind - but it isn't the go in AFL in my opinion.


Anyway, enough from me on this. It was all bleedingly obvious stuff for the most part, but I wanted to get the ball rolling.

Please post your comments, abusive or otherwise, below.

[fugazi]

When paul roos took over from Rocket Eade, he looked at the playing list and what they were proficient at and he implemented a style that suited them and allowed them to win games...

By contrast...

RL took over a team and implemented a style regardless of the proficiencies and deficiencies of the playing group.

We are an attacking, instinctive, confident team that scares the crap out of the opposition with our momentum forward and ability to surge for multiple goals ( even this year think of the Dogs 1st qtr)

Then RL puts the brakes on, think defence first...the players are thinking"I don't want to stuff up", they get away from their instincts and into their heads and inevitably their skills plummet.

We're actually a skilful team, believe it or not, but now even Dal and BJ are turning the ball over.

You can't apply the same blueprint, you have to interface with what you've got.

[asiu]

i didnt read it mb , got a case of the sh!ts and no paitence levels 'going on'

but in my mind ...it's simple sh!t

the kids were sold a ten year plan .....by both 'arms' of the club , told to put in when it was their time to put themselves on the line and that the club would support them ....as team and as individuals
....it was all about the footy ....making their own history

the poor saps actually believed ....and played like it


what they actually got , was a lesson in the realities of big business and brand


dont know about them , but i'm pissed

[St DAC]

No agenda here of course MB, none at all ...

In the "Where are all the Lyon supporters now?" thread you said he lost you at the Kangaroos game last year (which I agree was a really poor effort).

That was round 11 in his first year of coaching. So essentially you believe after only half of one of three seasons he's contracted for you decided his coaching was poor, and would never be up to scratch. That's 1/6th of his contract period. You think that's a fair assessment period?

On that basis very few coaches would survive their first year.

No agenda though ...

[krabb]

How do you know Ross Lyon has lost his way?

Could it be as simple as....

Under Grant Thomas they were moddycoddled and under Ross Lyon they need to grow up and think for themselves?

Grant Thomas was a father figure to most of the boys..from all reports they had free access to come and go at his house whenever they felt the need to...some were almost part of his family.

Put in the odd overseas bonding trip...theatre trip and dinners and they were a close group.

Enter Ross Lyon...

He's a man's man...no bonding with this guy...tough and straight to the point.

How pathetic if they cant cop it...football is a tough business...i couldnt imagine Leigh matthews being soft on any of his players.

Weed out the weakies Ross...we need to be a hell of a lot tougher.

You can write 10 page essays all you like on what you think is the problem...truth is nobody in here knows...its all guesswork.

[Behind Play]

[quote="krabb"]
Enter Ross Lyon...

He's a man's man...no bonding with this guy...tough and straight to the point.

I can assure you he is far from tough with the players.

[krabb]

Enter Ross Lyon...

He's a man's man...no bonding with this guy...tough and straight to the point.

I can assure you he is far from tough with the players.

Prove it...give me an example.

[st.byron]

I thought Loris's post on another thread entitled,
"Did anyone hear Aussie Jones on ABC radio....."
was an excellent and insightful summary of the mire Saints players find themselves in.
I'll quote it below because I think it directly addresses Baba's OP ...

"Aussie said something along the lines of.... under Thomas players were encouraged to attack, attack at all costs - move on quickly to so Roo, Frase & Milney can't be double tagged....don't worry about the skills get ball in there fast and let it be man on man contest, back themselves.....onballers were to hang back around centre line for anyturner overs to mop up (mistakes/rebounds ).

Then Lyon comes on board and makes team more defensive, accountable, wait for h/backs to be moving upfield before moving ball into forward zone. Waiting (my interpretation of his comment) means chipping around backwards, and laterally and waiting for a player on a clear lead up forward.

Aussie said the precise skills for such a game plan hadn't been drilled into that team over the years to hold onto the ball to play precision, possession football. He said players have the skills, but it wasn't in their psyche to do this which was just as important.

He feels that RL has realised that his original game plan is no longer relevant nearly 18 months down the track and not suited to the personnel at the Saints and now thinks the team is lost between the two styles.

My interpretation of Aussie's comments are that the team is uncertain of what is required of them as RL says he wants them to be attacking, but to Aussie they don't appear to start a game in that frame of mind. They are stuck into forcing the game into a contest early in the match , and not trying to stamp their authority immediately which was mindset under Thomas."

Good summary I reckon. They look completely lacking in confidence and purpose. Even in the two games I saw live at the start of the year that we won, I thought that. No cohesion as a unit. No instinct.

[Behind Play]

Enter Ross Lyon...

He's a man's man...no bonding with this guy...tough and straight to the point.

I can assure you he is far from tough with the players.

Prove it...give me an example.

You wouldn't beleive any way.

[krabb]

Footballers dont lose skills...kids under 10's know how to kick a goal and tackle.

If he's taught them defensive football and all they know is attacking football then surely....surely how hard can it be to combine the two?

Aussie Jones was giving his opinion on radio...still No proof that Ross Lyon is soft.

[st.byron]

Footballers dont lose skills...kids under 10's know how to kick a goal and tackle.

If he's taught them defensive football and all they know is attacking football then surely....surely how hard can it be to combine the two?

Aussie Jones was giving his opinion on radio...still No proof that Ross Lyon is soft.

Not suggesting that it was Krabb.

[Zippy]

How pathetic if they cant cop it...football is a tough business...i couldnt imagine Leigh matthews being soft on any of his players.

Weed out the weakies Ross...we need to be a hell of a lot tougher.

We were a darned sight tougher a couple of years ago. Whatever Thomas did, even if it was mollycoddlying them, he had them playing tough, committed, football.

Under Ross Lyon, they're not. Lyon needs to to fix that.

[krabb]

It starts in the U/18's and goes on from there..

Treated like Rock Stars...earn the big money...adored by fans...but only few like to do the hard work.

Fair dinkum they all need a kick up the rear end.

[rodgerfox]

He's a man's man...no bonding with this guy...tough and straight to the point.

What is the point though? Does anyone know? Do the players know? Does he know??

[saintsRrising]

It was generally agreed by all experts that the Saints of 2006 were basically a well-performing club with a pretty damn good list: the brief for Lyon was not to turn around a basket case, but to "take us to the next level". .

What experts?

Were these the same experts that had the Saints as walk starts to this years GF??? ...all based on a NAB Cup win where yes we won every game...but not by much and often coming from behind??


Now the list at the end of 2006 was not a basket case...and is not now (so yes based on last week Lyon is underperforming)......but it was a list full of glaring weaknesses and the "former core" (Aussie, Banger, GTrain, Hamill, Powell, Pecket, Thommo, Voss etc ) who had either just gone or just were just about to.


The window of winning a flag based on the old core had closed....and Lyon had to opeen up a new window based upon our younger core (Roo, Dal, Ball, Kosi, Joey, X, BJ S Fisher, Raph etc). Of this core only really Dal, Roo, Sam, BJ and Joey have stood up..together with Hayes and the aging Max and Banger. Baker has largely been MIA.

While the old core had a young core coming thru......there was no real younger core coming thru when Lyon took over apart from the lonely Gilbert.

Those thinking that Lyon was given the keys to a Premiership Team overated where the team was at at the end of 2006.....and are niave to the impact of losing so many very good players and underestimate that there was basically no next young generation there to take over.

The midfield loss of Powell, Pecket and Thommo has still not been recovered from.

While you MB may have been patting yourself on the back about whata grat list we had...I was certainly seeking to alert people that our list had been badly manged and was being driven into the ground with little coming through.

You reep what you sow...and Rl is having to larging reep what GT sowed.

That RL has continued on with GT's later preference for players from other clubs to such extent RL will hae to carry the can for. If Schneider does not come good .....he will have to cop the flak for yet another trade blunder.

[plugger66]

It starts in the U/18's and goes on from there..

Treated like Rock Stars...earn the big money...adored by fans...but only few like to do the hard work.

Fair dinkum they all need a kick up the rear end.

So we got the ones who will not do the work but Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, Pies and Roos got the ones who will do the work. It isnt that simple maybe it is the culture of the club. Or maybe most of the players arent good enough.

[krabb]

So we got the ones who will not do the work but Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, Pies and Roos got the ones who will do the work. It isnt that simple maybe it is the culture of the club. Or maybe most of the players arent good enough.

The problem lies with two entirely different Coaches...one pandered to the ones that needed it...the new one doesnt.

Truth probably is...they dont like his style..but im only guessing.

Tell me...how many here would love the chance to run out in a Saints jumper representing our Club?

How much would you bleed for our Club?

We have weak players that wont put in....i dont know why...but im betting Ross Lyon knows who they are.

[rodgerfox]

So we got the ones who will not do the work but Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, Pies and Roos got the ones who will do the work. It isnt that simple maybe it is the culture of the club. Or maybe most of the players arent good enough.

The problem lies with two entirely different Coaches...one pandered to the ones that needed it...the new one doesnt.

Truth probably is...they dont like his style..but im only guessing.

Tell me...how many here would love the chance to run out in a Saints jumper representing our Club?

How much would you bleed for our Club?

We have weak players that wont put in....i dont know why...but im betting Ross Lyon knows who they are.

Only 4 players appear to be consistently putting in though.

Are we suggesting that we get rid of all of them, for a guy who can only motivate 4 players to put in?

For a guy who we don't have a skerrick of evidence that he can actually coach anyway?

[krabb]

I was watching Dal Santo when he kicked that brilliant goal from the wing in the last quarter agains Brisbane...

He watched in amazement when it went through...it was hilarious to see the look on his face...

Yep Dal you actually can do it.

They dont believe in themselves..they dont take the chances...they have the skills..but hesitate.

Dont ask me why...but i dont believe its Lyon...i believe its them.

[Shaggy]

If he's taught them defensive football and all they know is attacking football then surely....surely how hard can it be to combine the two?

Its not like they are talking about defence in terms how to punch the ball away from the opp. RL plays a zone where if the opp have the ball we try to cover the back half.

IMO that leads to 2 problems:

1. Our blokes seem to get confused whether to attack the opp running with the ball or fall back to cover space in the back half, and

2. It takes alot more stamina (our blokes do a lot more running these days - and yes skills fall away when you are stuffed)

We also seem to do alot more player blocking around the ball but how many players do we actually have going for the ball?

The theory is great but I doubt we have the players with the endurance capabilities to match it with the obvious exceptions being Lenny, Banger and Roo.

[saint66au]

Sorry...but replace :discussion starter" with "agenda pusher" IMHO

Meher, I'm afraid you are become the alternate universe version of barks4eva circa this time 2006. Its all very well written and your grammar is impeccible, but through it all is just your obsession with anyone else bar GT coaching our side now.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as was Barks..but please dont try and hide your agenda behind a wall of genuine discussion. Theres a dozen other threads on RL and his potential/actual/possible shortcomings.....could you not have just popped it in one of them???

[mischa]

Lists smits... Why do our core/good/senior players consistently play like crap Why do North, Collingwood, Bulldogs etc. play consistent good accountable football Oh yeh they developed a rookie

[SENsei]

The players aren't playing for Ross Lyon.

Simple fact is he's lost the players.

It's all going to be a slippery slope from here.

[JeffDunne]

Since when did having an opinion constitute having an "agenda"?

I think it’s pretty bloody ridiculous too comparing genuine considered opinion to the crap that spammed these boards for over 12 months.

The only “agendaâ€

[joffaboy]

[quote="JeffDunne"]Since when did having an opinion constitute having an "agenda"?

I think it’s pretty bloody ridiculous too comparing genuine considered opinion to the crap that spammed these boards for over 12 months.

The only “agendaâ€