I am hurting, like each and every other saints fan out there, however the role of the armchair coach that a lot of you have taken over the past few days seems a little bit ridiculous.
yes you are all entitled to opinions, and yes a few things i have read since yesterday have made good sense.. BUT:
many have tried to chop and change our list in somewhat of an overhaul, ridding up to 12 of our 38 players in an instant. Others have suggested ommitting up to 7 players next week in the hope that it will send a message.
My question to these people..Do you actually think before you make these stupid posts?
if we ommitt 7 players this coming week, who comes in? will the ins do any better? Do the reserves players have any form under their belts? they weren't all that great from reports on the weekend.
Fergusson and Mcqualter are not the solution, this is highlighted by their past delistings. Armitage can make an impact, he could be one inclusion, but who else can come up from th 2's.
when you look at the current situation we are 4-5 and can still make an impact. The world hasn't ended and if we get back on track we can make the 8, and with confidence this side can be dangerous.
this is where the next few weeks will be crucial, it will shape our next 3-4 years.
If in this time, we concede that we can't win a flag in the next few years (which looks to be the case) then the board has to decide whether we re-build (which doesn't happen overnight like some suggest) with Ross as the man to do so, or if we have a change of coaching personnel and start effectively from scratch.
my opinion is that we should back Ross and give him a chance to build his on list via the draft.
armchair coaching can be simple (a realistic view)
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To be frank, do you truly think we can win a premiership playing the style of football that we do?
Can we really win a premiership under a coach who blames Sydney in Round 1 and Hawthorn last year for those horrific games when it was clearly our faults?
Can we really win a premiership under a coach who blames Sydney in Round 1 and Hawthorn last year for those horrific games when it was clearly our faults?
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
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fonz_#15
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maybe Ross has identified that the current crop won't win a flag, and a boring negative style of play is the only means of damage control against blow out losses week in week out.
maybe the players can't execute the game plan after being nurtured by their friend GT.
we don't know what goes on internally and to lay blame completely on the coach is unfair.
maybe the players can't execute the game plan after being nurtured by their friend GT.
we don't know what goes on internally and to lay blame completely on the coach is unfair.
Robert Harvey- Simply the best
Surely our first quarter against the Bulldogs showed we can be as vicious an attacking team as we were in previous years.
Now that was an exciting quarter, so we can play that way.
Let's be frank, we got pounded quite a few times in 02-03 but at least when you watched us you never knew what you were gonna get, but you knew we would be exciting.
It's real simple, the players have lost faith in Lyon's game plan, they know how the public perceives our current playing style and they don't like it.
Any coincidence the only players putting in are those who never give an inch, the older players like Harvs. We all know how good Kosi and Roo and Dal, Bally and Joey can be, but why would you even bother when we take a lead and the coaches instructions are to defend it.
Why did the players like GT? They were like all friends, he would have them over to his house. I get the feeling Ross Lyon is more distant than that. Not to mention, even if he was an idiot, GT knew ST Kildas strength was to attack, attack, attack.
Now that was an exciting quarter, so we can play that way.
Let's be frank, we got pounded quite a few times in 02-03 but at least when you watched us you never knew what you were gonna get, but you knew we would be exciting.
It's real simple, the players have lost faith in Lyon's game plan, they know how the public perceives our current playing style and they don't like it.
Any coincidence the only players putting in are those who never give an inch, the older players like Harvs. We all know how good Kosi and Roo and Dal, Bally and Joey can be, but why would you even bother when we take a lead and the coaches instructions are to defend it.
Why did the players like GT? They were like all friends, he would have them over to his house. I get the feeling Ross Lyon is more distant than that. Not to mention, even if he was an idiot, GT knew ST Kildas strength was to attack, attack, attack.
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
Though our great first quarters then stopping had become quite a trend at that time.
How many forward lines can boast players like Kosi and Roo, two guns at their best?
How is it teams like Geelong, and Collingwood can post huge scores with forwards who are not even in the same class as those 2 yet we are one of the lowest scoring teams?
I spell it out to Ross Lyon like this. Get the ball, kick it forward. Tell the players to stop kicking it around the backline for whatever reason they do it, get some guts and kick it forward.
We are not Sydney. We do not win games in our backline.
We are the Mighty Saints.
How many forward lines can boast players like Kosi and Roo, two guns at their best?
How is it teams like Geelong, and Collingwood can post huge scores with forwards who are not even in the same class as those 2 yet we are one of the lowest scoring teams?
I spell it out to Ross Lyon like this. Get the ball, kick it forward. Tell the players to stop kicking it around the backline for whatever reason they do it, get some guts and kick it forward.
We are not Sydney. We do not win games in our backline.
We are the Mighty Saints.
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
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Saintschampions08
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Because Kosi is the most overrated player to come into the AFL since the start of the new century.SainterX wrote:Though our great first quarters then stopping had become quite a trend at that time.
How many forward lines can boast players like Kosi and Roo, two guns at their best?
How is it teams like Geelong, and Collingwood can post huge scores with forwards who are not even in the same class as those 2 yet we are one of the lowest scoring teams?
I spell it out to Ross Lyon like this. Get the ball, kick it forward. Tell the players to stop kicking it around the backline for whatever reason they do it, get some guts and kick it forward.
We are not Sydney. We do not win games in our backline.
We are the Mighty Saints.
What has he actually done to warrant this 'brilliantness' he's being granted.
He played 4 good games in a year compared to what, 25 odd games since the start of '07 where he has done nothing.
The cold fact is, if he were at Hawthorn right now, he wouldn't have a spot in their 22.
I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
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Saintschampions08
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Out of interest.Iceman234 wrote:I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
How many of your staff would be cut/replaced for continuous under performing, laziness, or constant sick days?
If Kosi were at Hawthorn Simon Taylor would be the one missing out, Kosi would be Mr Versatile for them.
I am sure Hawthorn supporters thought that some of their players would not make our starting 22 when we were unbeaten a few years back also.
It all goes around.
Regardless we are still the Mighty Saints. Our players are the ones who control our destiny and find it strange that a professional like Lyon cannot get a lift out of players, yet a man who some labelled an idiot in GT got it in spades.
I bet it would be much less if the person in charge actually made work interesting rather than just plodding along.
Nobody could truly say that from our play lately that all the players adore Ross Lyon and are trying their hardest for him, yet are just not good enough.
I am sure Hawthorn supporters thought that some of their players would not make our starting 22 when we were unbeaten a few years back also.
It all goes around.
Regardless we are still the Mighty Saints. Our players are the ones who control our destiny and find it strange that a professional like Lyon cannot get a lift out of players, yet a man who some labelled an idiot in GT got it in spades.
Out of interest.
How many of your staff would be cut/replaced for continuous under performing, laziness, or constant sick days?
I bet it would be much less if the person in charge actually made work interesting rather than just plodding along.
Nobody could truly say that from our play lately that all the players adore Ross Lyon and are trying their hardest for him, yet are just not good enough.
Last edited by SainterX on Tue 27 May 2008 12:27am, edited 1 time in total.
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
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Teflon
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And that ONLY applies to the coach in your world.....players can be lazy, selfish, sacks of cr@p allday long but the coach HAS to fix it all?Iceman234 wrote:I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
Grow a brain FFS.
“Yeah….nah””
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Saintschampions08
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Because they play in the same position right?SainterX wrote:If Kosi were at Hawthorn Simon Taylor would be the one missing out, Kosi would be Mr Versatile for them.
I am sure Hawthorn supporters thought that some of their players would not make our starting 22 when we were unbeaten a few years back also.
It all goes around.
Regardless we are still the Mighty Saints. Our players are the ones who control our destiny and find it strange that a professional like Lyon cannot get a lift out of players, yet a man who some labelled an idiot in GT got it in spades.
Out of interest.
How many of your staff would be cut/replaced for continuous under performing, laziness, or constant sick days?
I bet it would be much less if the person in charge actually made work interesting rather than just plodding along.
Nobody could truly say that from our play lately that all the players adore Ross Lyon and are trying their hardest for him, yet are just not good enough.
Taylor plays in the ruck, Kosi plays in the forward line and spends little time in the
Ah but Kosi can be CHB, ruck or CHF, and to be fair in a team like Hawthorn where he did not have to be one of the big guns up forward he may just blossom there without the burden of having to perform every week.
Just imagine Kosi, Roughead and Franklin in the same forward line. Who would have the players to stop that?
Somehow I doubt Taylor, Roughead and Franklin or Campbell, Roughead and Franklin would have the same fear factor to other teams.
Just imagine Kosi, Roughead and Franklin in the same forward line. Who would have the players to stop that?
Somehow I doubt Taylor, Roughead and Franklin or Campbell, Roughead and Franklin would have the same fear factor to other teams.
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
Sorry Teflex,Teflon wrote:And that ONLY applies to the coach in your world.....players can be lazy, selfish, sacks of cr@p allday long but the coach HAS to fix it all?Iceman234 wrote:I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
Grow a brain FFS.
you have a greater brain than I.
The coach is the heartbeat of the team.
The team should be beating to his drum.
If they are then good on us, we will finish where we deserve to finish.
I am a Saint through and through but I am not enjoying the current situation.
Obviously you are happy with it.
Grow a brain FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Players can be very lazy, and players can be highly motivated and play beyond their level when motivated properly.
But you go and live in your insipid workforce then Teffers where your boss inspires you to the heights of an earthworm, and you enjoy that place.
Grow a brain FFS................
Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but when a team of young people is brought together in an environment where they are looking for guidance and leadership, being paid a small fortune compared to most their own age, thrown into the spotlight, heaven help us that Teflon will be there to say : "Each and every one of you are on your own, I am a coach, not a leader of men, now go out there and be individually responsible."
You must be one great inspirationin your workplace Teflon.
But grow a brain FFS!
One day (God forbid) you may actually be put in charge of some people who look to you for guidance.
Hope my kids aren't part of that group - ever.
FFS grow a brain.
I am responsible for my own actions but my leaders are ultimately responsible for the teams return.
FFS grow a brain.
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fonz_#15
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as i go through life i may also be able to pick out how ignorant some people are.Iceman234 wrote:I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
i am not sticking up for Ross Lyon as such, his time as coach has been ordinary at best and is on the verge of an out and out disaster.
Ross is not our biggest problem.
we have a capable playing list, which has been overrated for so long, it is not as spectacular as many make it out to be but it is certainly top 8 worthy.
Kosi is a perfect example of where our list is at the moment..could be anything, but a lot of the time is anonymous when required.
it is not as simple as you make it out to be, espcially when we have the most fragile players in the league as a result of our laughable fitness staff record.
Robert Harvey- Simply the best
Good point Iceman.Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but when a team of young people is brought together in an environment where they are looking for guidance and leadership, being paid a small fortune compared to most their own age, thrown into the spotlight, heaven help us that Teflon will be there to say : "Each and every one of you are on your own, I am a coach, not a leader of men, now go out there and be individually responsible."
Money means nothing. In effect these players can sign a 5 year contract than play rubbish football for the next 100 games and still get paid. If the coach did not need to provide some leadership and guidance why do we have them at all? Some players are money hungry, so need that guidance.
Remember also that the coach gets the big bucks so if the players are to inspire themselves and others why shouldnt the coaches have to earn their money the same way?
A true king doesn't glass his girlfriend.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
A true king doesn't smear his blood on an opponent when he cannot break a tag.
A true king does not label umpires disgraceful.
A true king is Robert Harvey.
and with him coaching doesn't matter who the players are.fonz_#15 wrote:
i am not sticking up for Ross Lyon as such, his time as coach has been ordinary at best and is on the verge of an out and out disaster.
.
Bewaire krime, da krimson bolt is comeing to yure nayborhood to smach krime
SHUT UP KRIME!
SHUT UP KRIME!
Indeed I hope you pick up how ignorant some will be, a life lesson you will learn.fonz_#15 wrote:as i go through life i may also be able to pick out how ignorant some people are.Iceman234 wrote:I'll tell you what's simple.
The coach keeps saying the team is not playing to his gameplan.
He is the coach.
He pulls the strings.
He is the boss.
He has to actually be able to communicate with the list.
If they are not playing to his plan, there is an issue with him, the boss. He has a problem with his message getting through.
It is that simple.
My boss would be well and truly removed by now, if 18 months into his journey, our team was performing in the bottom half of our KPI's.
Simple.
It's business.
You'll pick it up as you go through life Fonz.
Either perform or get the F*** out.
i am not sticking up for Ross Lyon as such, his time as coach has been ordinary at best and is on the verge of an out and out disaster.
Ross is not our biggest problem.
we have a capable playing list, which has been overrated for so long, it is not as spectacular as many make it out to be but it is certainly top 8 worthy.
Kosi is a perfect example of where our list is at the moment..could be anything, but a lot of the time is anonymous when required.
it is not as simple as you make it out to be, espcially when we have the most fragile players in the league as a result of our laughable fitness staff record.
FYI I have never stated that Ross is our biggest problem, I merely highlight that he, as the head coach, should be getting more out of our list than is currently being returned to the "shareholders", the members.
But some take it that way.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but the buck has to stop somewhere.
For me, it's Ross.
He should be the superglue that pulls everyone together.
So far, in 18 months I haven't seen it.
But apparently because of that I need to grow a brain, because I pay my hard-earned for memberships each year and I shouldn't be able to ask questions on a fan forum.
I want nothing more than to see us lift and smash this competition and make the 8, make at least the second final, but make the GF and win the flaming thing.
But at the moment I can't see it happening.
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fonz_#15
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i agree with a lot of what you say but the world isn't ending, i have also never said you need to grow a brain (maybe you are referring to teffers, i rarely read his tangents).
in the end the buck does stop with the coach (rightly or wrongly) i think we need to look at player leadership as well, i am not sure how much impact riewoldt has on the players (especially when Lenny is their priority captain).
I would love Ross to be the man to take us forward but things don't look good at the moment.
compare Ross Lyon with Avram grant (chelsea manager in the EPL), he takes his team to 2 finals (both lost) and the team comes in 2nd to man uts on the final day of the season and he is sacked.
his team comes 2nd in 3 competitions and he loses his job.
maybe our board shpuld take a hard line like that, problem is we just can't throw money around like they can to pay out contracts.
in the end the buck does stop with the coach (rightly or wrongly) i think we need to look at player leadership as well, i am not sure how much impact riewoldt has on the players (especially when Lenny is their priority captain).
I would love Ross to be the man to take us forward but things don't look good at the moment.
compare Ross Lyon with Avram grant (chelsea manager in the EPL), he takes his team to 2 finals (both lost) and the team comes in 2nd to man uts on the final day of the season and he is sacked.
his team comes 2nd in 3 competitions and he loses his job.
maybe our board shpuld take a hard line like that, problem is we just can't throw money around like they can to pay out contracts.
Robert Harvey- Simply the best
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JeffDunne
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fonz_#15
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yeah i know, but just giving some perspective on different perceptions of failure.JeffDunne wrote:That's the difference between private ownership and club boards fonz.
Private owners aren't playing a popularity contest.
at the end of the day they are still playing a popularity contest..
have a look at Liverpool, their fans (myself being 1) despise their 2 american owners, the selfish twats are ruining the most successful english club by bickering and failing to provide funds for transfers and backing much loved manager rafa benitez.
Robert Harvey- Simply the best
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JeffDunne
I wasn't trying to suggest that I prefered the private ownership approach because there is absolutely no accountability from a club perspective. It's not uncommon though for fans to hate the owners of their team (pretty common in the NFL).
Maybe it's because I follow a comp like the NFL where coaches regularly only last one season, but I don't understand the attachment people have to coaches. They're the most important person in the make up of any team and it's why they need to be the right fit. To me it is utter nonsense to allow a coach years of failure because he can't work with what his got (unless of course you're already down and out). If a coach can't communicate with the players already there, what makes people think he will be able to with players he brings in?
Maybe it's because I follow a comp like the NFL where coaches regularly only last one season, but I don't understand the attachment people have to coaches. They're the most important person in the make up of any team and it's why they need to be the right fit. To me it is utter nonsense to allow a coach years of failure because he can't work with what his got (unless of course you're already down and out). If a coach can't communicate with the players already there, what makes people think he will be able to with players he brings in?
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BAM! (shhhh)
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Simply put, if the guys won't play for the coach, that's an indictment of both... but it's easier to turn over a coach than 22 players.
It may be that this list needs a shakeup, big name traded, or something of the ilk. I'm not satisfied after 2 backwards years that Lyon would be the man to make that decision.
If the club does decide on a new direction (i.e. youth, building for a future run) then there will need to be an assessment.
2 years on a 3 year deal when circumstances have changed doesn't seem unfair to me. If after 2 years you think the guys can't cut it, no need for year 3.
It may be that this list needs a shakeup, big name traded, or something of the ilk. I'm not satisfied after 2 backwards years that Lyon would be the man to make that decision.
If the club does decide on a new direction (i.e. youth, building for a future run) then there will need to be an assessment.
2 years on a 3 year deal when circumstances have changed doesn't seem unfair to me. If after 2 years you think the guys can't cut it, no need for year 3.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
- Henry Ford
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Juggernaut
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For every player in the AFL there are thousands of armchair CHF’s, who boast that "we won the game," and whose hand/eye coordination consists of holding stubby with one hand while aiming a remote-control with the other.
In reality the club is only interested in the opinion of a select few that know a thing or two about this great game, and I’d be surprised if it were anyone posting on this forum.
I think it’s a healthy way to have a say and get it off your chest. Keep it decent but just don’t take what’s been said too seriously
In reality the club is only interested in the opinion of a select few that know a thing or two about this great game, and I’d be surprised if it were anyone posting on this forum.
I think it’s a healthy way to have a say and get it off your chest. Keep it decent but just don’t take what’s been said too seriously
The strength behind you is always greater than the challenge in front of you