Key differences between 04&05 and 08....

[kaos theory]

Key differences are:

- In 04/05: Aussie, Powell, Thommo, Black, Peckett, Hamil, Penny, plus Harvey, G-train & Maxy 4 years younger, a fit Ball & goose, and confident Kosi

This group won more contested footy, had greater toughness, greater accuracy in delivery, more confidence in play.

- In 08: the general game style of all teams is differnt. heaps more running, pacy players, more flooding

- Our team is now slow, lacks toughness & ability to win contestd ball: end result we are chasing the opposition and there is more pressure on our ball carries. This effects decision-making, therefore loss of confidence, we become reactive and not playing well as a unit.

[Teflon]

At last we get to it.

Of our "superstars" who were gonna take the AFL by storm - apart from Riewoldt....and some suggest Pavlich and Co may have slipped past him...who has truly developed and exceeded expectation?

Im sure the usual tossers will be on soon to tell us how this is all Lyons fault in his second year and his "sydney game plan" blah blah blah blah....

wake up. 04/05 days are over.

[Buckets]

At last we get to it.

Of our "superstars" who were gonna take the AFL by storm - apart from Riewoldt....and some suggest Pavlich and Co may have slipped past him...who has truly developed and exceeded expectation?

Im sure the usual tossers will be on soon to tell us how this is all Lyons fault in his second year and his "sydney game plan" blah blah blah blah....

wake up. 04/05 days are over.

Gee i better start this off then hey Teflon
There were alot on here and i believe you were one of them correct me if im wrong...that believed that GT was the only thing holding us back and that the players we had and still have were good enough.

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

There are alot of us who would suggest that this is not the case...nothing against the guy but we were told that Lyon would take us to the next level...i'm still yet to see us even get close to the level we once had! We make the same mistakes yet we make different excuses to suit our agendas! Last year he had the benefit of the doubt with injuries...no such luck this time. If corraling and manning space is not the directive of the coaching box on match day then we have bigger problems than any of us can imagine!

[kaos theory]

Powell & Thommo were great contested ball winners. Their toughness, combined with a fit ball, Lenny pre-knee, is it any wonder we were always on top in contested ball stats.

That's the key, first use of the ball allows you to dictate the flow of the game more and build confidence. Tonight, there were too many players sitting back and waiting for someone to do it for them...

We need some toughness, & pace through the mids, that will help enormously, it will also straighten up our forward play..... Our rebound out of defence has also gone backwards....maybe because Fisher has to man up a key defender (since goose has gone), and gram has gone backwards...how we miss aussie...

[kaos theory]

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

I don't see how we can categorically answer that now. He has had 1.25years with a team that was going south quickly when he took over. GT had 5+yrs. RL needs to be given some time to work through and get things right.

[plugger66]

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

I don't see how we can categorically answer that now. He has had 1.25years with a team that was going south quickly when he took over. GT had 5+yrs. RL needs to be given some time to work through and get things right.

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.

[saint_mite]

inspiration and desire....
right now we are playing like magnets being moved around on the whiteboard, sticking to their set plays and not letting them create themselves. they aren't taking chances like we where in 04/05. we need emotion and some fire in the eyes. we aren't as haarrrdddd as we used to be.

[kaos theory]

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.

We had a bad injury run, but not as bad as 07... Also, we were very luckly to win against the bombers and port, really we should have lost both...that would have had us at 12 wins for the yr...

[plugger66]

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.

We had a bad injury run, but not as bad as 07... Also, we were very luckly to win against the bombers and port, really we should have lost both...that would have had us at 12 wins for the yr...

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

[Teflon]

At last we get to it.

Of our "superstars" who were gonna take the AFL by storm - apart from Riewoldt....and some suggest Pavlich and Co may have slipped past him...who has truly developed and exceeded expectation?

Im sure the usual tossers will be on soon to tell us how this is all Lyons fault in his second year and his "sydney game plan" blah blah blah blah....

wake up. 04/05 days are over.

Gee i better start this off then hey Teflon
There were alot on here and i believe you were one of them correct me if im wrong...that believed that GT was the only thing holding us back and that the players we had and still have were good enough.

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

There are alot of us who would suggest that this is not the case...nothing against the guy but we were told that Lyon would take us to the next level...i'm still yet to see us even get close to the level we once had! We make the same mistakes yet we make different excuses to suit our agendas! Last year he had the benefit of the doubt with injuries...no such luck this time. If corraling and manning space is not the directive of the coaching box on match day then we have bigger problems than any of us can imagine!

I still do believe Ross Lyon is the coach that will take this club forward. I believe he does know his footy. I beleiev he has a plan and it isnt Sydneys (simpletons argue that). I do not believe his plan has been executed fully yet.

I absolutely believe GT took this club as far as he was gonna (good at the time he came in...stayed to long for mine) - and Ive seen f@rk all real improvement from players whove been round as part of the GT era to see that.

So what has changed for me?

I seriously doubt the list he has at his disposal down to the bottom end have the basics to get us there - love to be wrong. More than happy to be.

Can you honestly tell me that what Ross Lyons got toplay with in 2008 is the same as what GT had in 04/05?????????

I still think the 'core' of this list is good enough......... but aftger watching Geelongs, Hawks etc Im not sure our bottom end is as good.

Thats not "agenda" suiting. Thats just how I see it has evolved - sorry if thats not convenient enough for you to throw out a coach who hasnt finished his 2nd year yet.

[LENNY LEADS THE WAY]

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.

We had a bad injury run, but not as bad as 07... Also, we were very luckly to win against the bombers and port, really we should have lost both...that would have had us at 12 wins for the yr...

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Actually if ur aunt had a dick she'd be a tranny

[Teflon]

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

I don't see how we can categorically answer that now. He has had 1.25years with a team that was going south quickly when he took over. GT had 5+yrs. RL needs to be given some time to work through and get things right.

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.[/quote

Is this 2008 playing list in as good shape as the 2004/05?

and lest be honest about it....

[plugger66]

Can you honestly tell me Teflon that you think that Lyon has what it takes to take this club to a flag????????

I don't see how we can categorically answer that now. He has had 1.25years with a team that was going south quickly when he took over. GT had 5+yrs. RL needs to be given some time to work through and get things right.

It actually wasnt going south that much. We won 14 games in 2006 which was one less than 2004 I think so wasnt really that bad and had many more injuries in 2006.[/quote

Is this 2008 playing list in as good shape as the 2004/05?

and lest be honest about it....

No. But I never said it was. I was just saying we werent going south in 2006 as we had won one game less than what was our best year and had many injuries. Is that fair enough?

[kaos theory]

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Point is we were no where near as impressive in 06 as we were in 04/05. We we began to struggle with the flood.....other teams developed more strengh & run through their mids.

In 04 we could have easily made the gf. there is no friggen way we would have in 06, hence, relative to other teams we were going backwards...

[plugger66]

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Point is we were no where near as impressive in 06 as we were in 04/05. We we began to struggle with the flood.....other teams developed more strengh & run through their mids.

In 04 we could have easily made the gf. there is no friggen way we would have in 06, hence, relative to other teams we were going backwards...

Injuries killed us in 2006. Didnt have near as many in 2004 so hard to know where we were at but I certainly know were we are now.

[Teflon]

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Point is we were no where near as impressive in 06 as we were in 04/05. We we began to struggle with the flood.....other teams developed more strengh & run through their mids.

In 04 we could have easily made the gf. there is no friggen way we would have in 06, hence, relative to other teams we were going backwards...

Injuries killed us in 2006. Didnt have near as many in 2004 so hard to know where we were at but I certainly know were we are now.

Where are we do you think Plugger?

[plugger66]

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Point is we were no where near as impressive in 06 as we were in 04/05. We we began to struggle with the flood.....other teams developed more strengh & run through their mids.

In 04 we could have easily made the gf. there is no friggen way we would have in 06, hence, relative to other teams we were going backwards...

Injuries killed us in 2006. Didnt have near as many in 2004 so hard to know where we were at but I certainly know were we are now.

Where are we do you think Plugger?

Well I do not really have any idea but lets put it this way I would suggest come the start of the new Brisbane side we get as much as we can for Rooy and start again because we aint going to win a flag in the years before that. Hate to say it but even though we idnt know it at the time Guerra needed to kick a goal off the ground in 2004.

[Teflon]

Im shattered also Bassoon as at seasons start I truly thought "tbhis could be the year"......wed filled ruck holes, got good pre seasons in, recruiited ex Premiership goal sneaks, retained a Coleman medallist from retirement for zilch.(i WAS DREAMING BOUT THIS FWD SET UP....)...blah blah blah....AND the likes of Kosi were ready and waiting in the wings to step up as the next generation fwd.....ahhh...it was all gonna happen.

FRk me.

[lefty]

Sigh, another loss again.

I thought most of the players actually really tried, its just the way we play.

Our gameplay generally goes like this....
Other team gets the ball, runs and kicks long. We run and flood back, marking SPACE, not the player. Turnover eventually happens. We stop, look up, cannot play on quickly due to no one up the ground. We kick 15m backwards, then sideways, then another sideways kick 15m forward. We're now at the Right HBF, originally came from the Left HBF. We get someone running, take a 10m run and try kick long. By this time, the entire opposition has pushed numbers back. The forward line is packed with opposition, Gehrig and Kosi have no where to lead and are ALWAYS outnumbered. Turnover, other team runs it out, there's not enough numbers nor pressure and the other team run out & hit a spot on kick, and quickly kick down again, then their already at the HFF, kicking to a lead or the full forward.

Just seems to continually go around this loop, game after game. I cannot see why Ross cannot see what is happening. I dont blame F.Gehrig, if the kick went to the fat side, 1 vs 1 on a lead or in the air, I would put money on him to win the ball, but not when theres a forward line with no space. Get the dvds of the winning streak out to see how a forward line should be.

Lets look at our season so far shall we.

Saints v Syd - 51 to 49 = Won, but should have lost
Saints v Carl - 125 to 85 = Won, but should have won by more
Bulldogs v Saints - 125 to 87 = Lost
Saints vs Geelong - 94 to 136 = Lost
Saints vs Essendon - 123 to 87 = Won
Port vs Saints - 82 to 61 = Lost
Richmand vs Saints - 107 to 110 = Won, but should have lost
Saints vs Collingwood - 94 to 103 = Lost

The only two decent team's wins (without luck or fluke) have been against Essendon and Carlton, its saying something. We should be 2 and 6.

Truely fed up with our flood back, win the ball, 15m chip kicks, long bomb into forward line type game.

Wish I could go back to the good years (04,05,06) with a decent coach. I hate the way we play, and I hate seeing a good full forward having to cop the flack due to a poor game style. Its not just G, whoever is Full Forward has the same problem (Eg Kosi).

[Teflon]

And if my Aunt was my Uncle she would have a dick. We won 14 games.

Point is we were no where near as impressive in 06 as we were in 04/05. We we began to struggle with the flood.....other teams developed more strengh & run through their mids.

In 04 we could have easily made the gf. there is no friggen way we would have in 06, hence, relative to other teams we were going backwards...

Injuries killed us in 2006. Didnt have near as many in 2004 so hard to know where we were at but I certainly know were we are now.

Where are we do you think Plugger?

Well I do not really have any idea but lets put it this way I would suggest come the start of the new Brisbane side we get as much as we can for Rooy and start again because we aint going to win a flag in the years before that. Hate to say it but even though we idnt know it at the time Guerra needed to kick a goal off the ground in 2004.

such a shame but I tend to agree with that....

[matrix]

ohh
i thought the diffs would have been a one and a three

[felixleo]

If you haven't got a life you can try comparing the lists of Geelong and St Kilda of 2004 to those of 2008. My criteria was to to give a plus minus or zero to a player who was on the list then to what he is now ie G 2004 is a minus now in 2008. As a mental exercise it gets interesting when you have a choice of deciding whether say gilbert is a plus minus or zero for peckett. I came up with our 2008 list being +5 on our 2004 list and Geelong being +15 on there 2004 list. Open to endless debate but I think only blind Freddy couldn't see we have fallen behind.

[mischa]

Next we'll be hearing Collingwood have a much better list Through sheer ineptitude we made a bad side look good. One OK quarter the rest crap I think the simple facts are that for whatever reason they are not playing 'for one another' as teams should and hence the lack of confidence. The skill errors by hand and foot were awful.

[meher baba]

Ifelt pretty miserable last night but opening this thread this morning brought a wry smile to my face

Why is it always the case when we watch a disappointing performance like last night that the anti-GT posters feel that they have to jump onto SS and post masses of verbiage comparing our current state to that we were in back in 2004 and 2005

As rodgerfox says, "he's gone, move on"

[Teflon]

Ifelt pretty miserable last night but opening this thread this morning brought a wry smile to my face

Why is it always the case when we watch a disappointing performance like last night that the anti-GT posters feel that they have to jump onto SS and post masses of verbiage comparing our current state to that we were in back in 2004 and 2005

As rodgerfox says, "he's gone, move on"

You almost sound kinda satisfied we lost last night cause it helps you justify some fantasy internet battle your having in your head......bizarre....

Im gutted by where our teams at and our "window" is closed for a great champion of our side will NEVER wear a Premiership medallion and you STILL want to start a debate about GT?????

FFS why not just take a hike?

This threads a GENUINE FOOTBALL thread about why we lost last night and where as a group we are at. It has NOTHING to do with Thomas other than looking at what has transpired from 04 to now - the likes of you constantly want to live in the "10 game streak" past and are still stupidly suggesting "if we just move the ball fast Gehrig will once again become the player he was....Kosi will magically realise his potential and Gram may lay an effective tackle" FFS..WAKE UP. Its not pleasant but its there for all to see and I saw it first hand last night.

We arent the 04/05 side as numerous true saints fans acknowledge.

The question ultimately becomes and of which Im truly interested in is - where do we go from here?

I expect your response will be more of the same old tired "GT" so best say nothing if thats all you can contribute.