St Kilda NOT St. Kilda

[saintsRrising]

This may be pedantic of me....but I have noted in many recent posts that many forumites are not writing the name of our club correctly.

Our club's name is St Kilda and not St. Kilda




St is NOT an abbreviation for Saint and hence there is no full stop ( . ) used after the St in St Kilda.

We are name after the archipelago of St Kilda, the remotest part of the British Isles, lies 41 miles (66 kilometres) west of Benbecula in Scotland's Outer HebridesIsland (or if you will after the suburb which which was named after the schooner "Lady of St Kilda" which was named after St Kilda).

See http://www.kilda.org.uk/ for maps, pics


(Go to WOM and click on the History Tab for this next extract and other gems ....)

. . There are various theories as to how the St Kilda off Scotland got its name. The islands are said to have been inhabited by Norwegians from the 9th to the 15th centuries, and as there is an excellent fresh water spring, the name may originate from the Nordic name for spring, "kilde".

According to documents in the State Library, St Kilda was actually called "Sakilda" or "Sakilder", a Scandinavian word for a row of shields, the archipelago's appearance as it was approached by sea. A Dutchman in the 1600s allegedly made a mistake in copying a map and mistook the first 'a' in "Sakilda" for a 't' or missed it al together because of a crease mark. Whatever the real story, everyone is agreed that there was never a Saint Kilda.
The Article St Kilda Historical Series/skhs.org.au/21Jul04

The Wiki reference on origins of the name is a good read too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_ ... n_of_names

No saint is known by the name of Kilda, and various theories have been proposed for the word's origin, which dates from the late 16th century.[12] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it may have been derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a saint. (In fact, the latter is a combination of the Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda has also its name".[13][14]


1580 Carte of Scotlande showing Hyrth (i.e. Hirta) at left and Skaldar (Haskeir) to the north westMaclean (1972) similarly suggests it may come from a corruption of the Old Norse name for the spring on Hirta, Childa, and states that a 1588 map identifies the archipelago as Kilda. He also speculates that it may refer to the Culdees, anchorites who may have brought Christianity to the island, or be a corruption of the Gaelic name for the main island of the group, since the islanders tended to pronounce r as l, and thus habitually referred to the island as Hilta.[15] Steel (1988) adds weight to the idea, noting that the islanders pronounced the H with a "somewhat guttural quality", making the sound they used for Hirta "almost" Kilta.[16]

Maclean (1972) further suggests that the Dutch may have simply made a cartographical error, and confused Hirta with Skildar, the old name for Haskeir island much nearer the main Outer Hebrides archipelago.[17][18] Quine (2000) hypothesises that the name is derived from a series of cartographical errors, starting with the use of the Old Icelandic Skildir ("shields") and appearing as Skildar on a map by Nicholas de Nicolay (1583). This, so the hypothesis goes, was transcribed in error by Lucas J. Waghenaer in his 1592 charts without the trailing r and with a period after the S, creating S.Kilda. This was in turn assumed to stand for a saint by others, creating the form that has been used for several centuries, St Kilda.[19][20][21]


The Village Street, showing restoration workThe origin of Hirta, which long pre-dates St Kilda, is similarly open to interpretation. Martin (1703) avers that "Hirta is taken from the Irish Ier, which in that language signifies west".[13] Maclean offers several options, including an (unspecified)[22] Celtic word meaning 'gloom' or 'death', or the Scots Gaelic h-Iar-Tir ("westland"). Drawing on an Icelandic saga describing an early 13th-century voyage to Ireland that mentions a visit to the islands of Hirtir, he speculates that the shape of Hirta resembles a stag, Hirtir ("stags" in Norse).[23] Steel (1998) quotes the view of Reverend Neil Mackenzie, who lived there from 1829 to 1844, that the name is derived from the Gaelic I-Àrd (English: "high island"), and a further possibility that it is from the Norse Hirt ("shepherd").[24] In a similar vein, Murray (1966) speculates that the Norse Hirðö, pronounced 'Hirtha' ("herd island"), may be the origin.[25] All the names of and on the islands are fully discussed by Coates (1990).[26]



PS and yes some one in the club stuffed up by approving some enthusiatic, but poorly briefed, graphic designers logo for the club which shows a full stop under a truncated T on the shield.

[Liam_G]

I've noticed 'Saint Kilda' being used around the traps also

[Saint_in_SA]

Pedantic? Meh, nothin' wrong with being a full stop Nazi!

[my les foote]

Whether it is St Kilda or St. Kilda doesn't bother me as long as they don't follow it with Saints.

I HATE seeing the words St Kilda Saints together. We are St Kilda or the Saints not the St Kilda Saints.

St Kilda Saints is just a misguided effort by the marketing types to get all teams to conform to some sort of marketing template and make them sound like basketball or baseball teams.

None of the traditional teams who have kept their name should have this name - nickname combo foisted upon them.

Sorry to steal your rant.

[Launcestonsaint]

I plead guilty your honour.

[OneEyedSainter77]

I've been trying to stop it lately but its like my .... habit; once you start you can't stop. Although, I hardly ever do this..... anymore so I guess i can say St Kilda now. Saves point four seconds of not pressing the full stop key.

[markinUSA]

I actually went to Scotland and looked for St Kilda; most times you found it without a full stop, sometimes it was spelt with one... Some maps even had the full stop - I had no idea it was so significant.

(Truth be told... and this reflects my own prejudices... I do apologize for this... I assumed people who were spelling it without a full stop were just making a stupid error... woops!)

And for the record... my avatar is also available on the club website... and it has a full stop... so maybe a lot of people use both ways.

[Dan Warna]

our current shield is st. k.f.c.

there is a listed as st. kilda football club, and a st kilda football club listed on teh ABR, the st. kilda football club is also listed as saint kilda football club, ABN 29 005 471 429

on our annual report we get sent the ABN was ST KILDA SAINTS FOOTBALL CLUB LTD which matches ABN 86 005 174 836 which had a formal name change from ST. KILDA FOOTBALL SOCIAL CLUB LIMITED to st kilda football club a couple of times as the social club mergered with the main football club and shed the ABN 65 169 297 795

so having a look we WERE called St. Kilda in the past, and our social club definately used the term st. kilda.

but now and currently we the St Kilda


CHeers

Dan

[saint66au]

Whether it is St Kilda or St. Kilda doesn't bother me as long as they don't follow it with Saints.

I HATE seeing the words St Kilda Saints together. We are St Kilda or the Saints not the St Kilda Saints.

St Kilda Saints is just a misguided effort by the marketing types to get all teams to conform to some sort of marketing template and make them sound like basketball or baseball teams.

None of the traditional teams who have kept their name should have this name - nickname combo foisted upon them.

Sorry to steal your rant.

God bless you MLF..its one of my pet hates too!! Watch AFL reports that eminate from Sydney, they do iot ALL the time. We are not the NRL with the Broncos, Warriors and Storm. We are the AFL and we are St Kilda!!!!!!

I will go spare if we ever reach the stage of the Super 14 comp, that just has nicknames. Gives the novice no freaking idea where the teams are based.

[spert]

And while we're at it, lets get rid of commas, and semi-colons etc. I always cringe when I look on this forum and see the butchering of "we're, their, there, they're, and so on. Lucky we all follow the Saints, full stops or not.

[GrumpyOne]

I always thought that the club was named after Kilda, the patron Saint of Sporting Injuries.

[Duggie]

I go along with every syllable of this thread so far. And good to see the confessions of other "sins" too. So thank you SrS.
And I have a confession. I was unaware, despite all the research I have done, to note SrS' statement that our great Club is named after the lonely remote island St Kilda. Does that mean it derives from the suburb St Kilda?
I have a book on the history of the island that makes rather sad reading. I often wonder if we have also inherited some of its hardship.

[saintsRrising]

I was unaware, despite all the research I have done, to note SrS' statement that our great Club is named after the lonely remote island St Kilda. Does that mean it derives from the suburb St Kilda?
:

As in my OP...(or if you will after the suburb which which was named after the schooner "Lady of St Kilda" which was named after St Kilda)

[starsign]

According to documents in the State Library, St Kilda was actually called "Sakilda" or "Sakilder", a Scandinavian word for a row of shields, the archipelago's appearance as it was approached by sea. A Dutchman in the 1600s allegedly made a mistake in copying a map and mistook the first 'a' in "Sakilda" for a 't' or missed it al together because of a crease mark. Whatever the real story, everyone is agreed that there was never a Saint Kilda.

good stuff sRs!

the obvious now comes to mind...we should not be called the Saints!
Wonder what we could call ourelves instead?mmmmm
Would make a good post!

And thats great about the full stop after St
I wiil persist from using it now my ignorance has been alerted
Think of all that energy and ink we will save by its future deletion!

[saintsRrising]

According to documents in the State Library, St Kilda was actually called "Sakilda" or "Sakilder", a Scandinavian word for a row of shields, the archipelago's appearance as it was approached by sea. A Dutchman in the 1600s allegedly made a mistake in copying a map and mistook the first 'a' in "Sakilda" for a 't' or missed it al together because of a crease mark. Whatever the real story, everyone is agreed that there was never a Saint Kilda.

good stuff sRs!

the obvious now comes to mind...we should not be called the Saints!
Wonder what we could call ourelves instead?mmmmm
Would make a good post!

And thats great about the full stop after St
I wiil persist from using it now my ignorance has been alerted
Think of all that energy and ink we will save by its future deletion!

If the Sakilda derivation is in fact the way that St Kilda aquired it's original name.....how appropriate is it that The Shield has now become the one true St Kilda symbol apart from our colors...

And that this has the marvelous derivation of being put onto our guernsey's to mark a heroic performance by a St Kilda team.

[Otiman]

Pedantic? Meh, nothin' wrong with being a full stop Nazi!

It's more than just a full stop. It's the religious connetations associated with it.

[saintspremiers]

excellent post Srs......I just hope that clown KB reads this, and stops calling us "Saint Kilda", and uses proper English and calls us by our REAL name "St Kilda".

And that goes for all the uneducated muppets that insisted with the "Saint Kilda" bullshyte.

I wish they'd learn.

Do they visit the Melbourne suburb of "Saint Kilda" or "St Kilda"?

Muppets, clowns, the lot of them.

[El Wood]

We are named after the suburb which was named after the ship which was named after the island. The suburb is spelt as "St.Kilda" so that's how we should be spelt. Though these days the full stop is sometimes left off because it confuses computers.

[Dan Warna]

the football jumpers I have for the kids (legit ones) are st. k.f.c. above the logo

the social club was formerly known with the title st. kilda preceding the rest of it.

so st kilda HAS been known BY the club as st. kilda in the past.

this would clearly add to the confusion.

Im pretty sure I've heard various officers of the club and players refer to teh club as saint kilda, although I know of the origin name and concur that apparently there was no 'saint kilda' and its an christianisation of a scandinavian word, which was more than common over time

[saintsRrising]

We are named after the suburb which was named after the ship which was named after the island. The suburb is spelt as "St.Kilda" so that's how we should be spelt. Though these days the full stop is sometimes left off because it confuses computers.

The suburb is spelt St Kilda and not St. Kilda

It has nothing to do with computers.

[vacuous space]

St Kilda Saints is just a misguided effort by the marketing types to get all teams to conform to some sort of marketing template and make them sound like basketball or baseball teams.

One could equally say that St. Kilda F. C. (or St Kilda F. C.) sounds like a European soccer team. While the club may have been modeled on British sports clubs, the AFL is now structured more like American sports leagues. StKFC for the Europhiles and traditionalists, St. Kilda Saints for the Amerophiles. In any case, I don't see how either is incorrect, except for the fact we don't play in St. Kilda anymore - ever.

As for the full stop, the 'St' in St. Kilda in contemporary usage is pretty clearly an abbreviation of 'Saint', whether there was a Saint Kilda or not. I don't see any reason anyone has to use a full stop though. Using full stops to abbreviate words is going the way of the dodo. I tend to use it reflexively, but I'm not particularly attatched to it. I don't have a problem with anyone deciding to use a full stop or not.

[rogerwa]

the best way to solve the whole st.kilda,st kilda debate is forget
st.kilda,the junction,moorabbin,waverley,frankston,the dome






















become the SOUTHPORT SAINTS

[spert]

Full stop or not full stop --check out the gory details on this website:

http://www.publishing.uwa.edu.au/styleg ... ctions.asp

[evertonfc]

It's St Kilda for me, never 'St. Kilda'. It all depends on the club: there's a St Helens RFC in England, but there's a St. Johnstone FC and St. Mirren FC and Scotland, but also a St Patrick's Athletic FC in Scotland, too. We're definitely just St Kilda Football Club. 'Saints' is an informal and technically unofficial (unless we trade as St Kilda Saints, which I don't think we do) name.

However, I've got a curly one.

I can't stand it when our name is pronounced verbally as 'Saint Kilda' (how Nick Sal Santo says it, for example), as for me, it's always said 'Snt Kilda'.

If you're talking about a Saint, as such, then fair enough. But I thought all the place names or events (or at least ones that I know) are said 'Snt' - for example St Ives, St Ledger, St Helens, St Johnstone, etc.

[spert]

Lets have a full-on forum discussion on this topic after we win the flag this year.