Ross Lyon after today

[whiskers3614]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

[samoht]

So you have decided to change what I said. If you said that in the first place we could have stopped about 30 posts. That call moving the goal posts. Still have no idea what your point is though. By the way why is Eade a terrific coach and by the way how would you rate RL if Eade is terrific and why. Looking forward to those answers if you have the time.

I think all coaches are largely over-rated as you know ... but, if we were to credit Eade with getting the maximum effort and output out of his team that day - then he was terrific.

So know he is terrific on the day. Who cares. Im sure Primus was terrific on certain days. Was Eade a terrific coach or not and how do you rate RL and why and what is your point on the teams running out the game because that has gone completely over my head.

Well I obviously don't regard RL as highly as you do. I think it's basically an AFL coach vs an AFL coach - a nil all draw, effectively. Put it this way, I'll take a generic AFL coach plus Dangerfield over the best coach going (and I don't know how anyone can measure that) anyday.

[markp]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

He's still here, he's just got everyone on ignore.

[markp]

'Terrific' is not on the debate table.

It's 'Good', 'Very Good', 'Great'.

Don't overcomplicate this.

Got an opinions at all? You used to have some. Maybe someone else is using your nic.

I voted 'Very Good' a long time ago.

My opinion is that this thread is shyte.

[plugger66]

So you have decided to change what I said. If you said that in the first place we could have stopped about 30 posts. That call moving the goal posts. Still have no idea what your point is though. By the way why is Eade a terrific coach and by the way how would you rate RL if Eade is terrific and why. Looking forward to those answers if you have the time.

I think all coaches are largely over-rated as you know ... but, if we were to credit Eade with getting the maximum effort and output out of his team that day - then he was terrific.

So know he is terrific on the day. Who cares. Im sure Primus was terrific on certain days. Was Eade a terrific coach or not and how do you rate RL and why and what is your point on the teams running out the game because that has gone completely over my head.

Well I obviously don't regard RL as highly as you do. I think it's basically an AFL coach vs an AFL coach - a nil all draw, effectively. Put it this way, I'll take a generic AFL coach plus Dangerfield over the best coach going (and I don't know how anyone can measure that) anyday.

Sorry I thought you said Eade was a terrific coach. Did Port Adelaide just suddenly improve and it was a coincidence that he was there at that time? Coaches can be overated anda great coach wont a bad team good but a poor coach can make a good team bad IMO of course. Why do you think Freo chanced RL if all coaches are basically the same.

[White Winmar]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

He's still here, he's just got everyone on ignore.

Thank goodness for small mercies!

[samoht]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. Scollop happens to be my cousin - and my username is actually his son's name backwards. So if anyone takes scollop on, they are taking me on too. I also taught him all the buzz swear words (they are not really swear words, comeon!).

[plugger66]

'Terrific' is not on the debate table.

It's 'Good', 'Very Good', 'Great'.

Don't overcomplicate this.

Got an opinions at all? You used to have some. Maybe someone else is using your nic.

I voted 'Very Good' a long time ago.

My opinion is that this thread is shyte.

Well most are so its in the majority. Its all a bit of fun though.

[dragit]

My opinion is that this thread is shyte.

I'd like to drill down a little here, are we talking - shyte, very shyte or the shytest.

All depends on how many entries you've made to the thread, who they were against etc etc.

[dragit]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. Scollop happens to be my cousin - and my username is actually his son's name backwards. So if anyone takes scollop on, they are taking me on too. I also taught him all the buzz swear words (they are not really swear words, comeon!).

pollocs? does he get called polyps at school?

[plugger66]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

He's still here, he's just got everyone on ignore.

I don't see how that stops him posting. he doesn't listen to anyone anyway.

[samoht]

Why do you think Freo chanced RL if all coaches are basically the same.

Why did Alan Bond pay a premium price for the nine network? Anyway, Freo is worth a $10 bet for next year's flag (not that i gamble).

[markp]

My opinion is that this thread is shyte.

I'd like to drill down a little here, are we talking - shyte, very shyte or the shytest.

All depends on how many entries you've made to the thread, who they were against etc etc.

We need a shyte debate chock-filled with an array of shyte stats.

[skeptic]

And what value does your reminisce bring to the thread

Oh there you are...

Why I believe my reminiscence merely draws you out Bunk... well done in taking the bait and not realising it

Lets examine some of your comments

1) Ross Lyon is a very good coach

Not an unreasonable view though there's some room to debate here. Some people think he's an excellent coach, some think he is average, many are somewhere in between. It's interesting that every time some one criticises his coaching, you feel the need to defend him. It's funny how you criticise people for being "Lyon Haters" and then cry foul at being called a "Lyon Lover"... doing the very thing your criticising only the other extreme...
it's even stranger because you yourself can see that Lyon has flaws but when other people express that, you play defender... like you're the only one that is 'even handed'.

2) Ross Lyon had plenty of flaws

And like many of the "Lyon Haters" have pointed out, he has plenty of strengths too... something that you again fail to acknowledge when branding everyone that dares criticise his GF performance a "Lyon Hater"

3) Ross Lyon can be blamed for some reasons why we didn't win a flag

Agreed.

4) Ross Lyon cannot be blamed for poor kicking

I don't know of anyone that doesn't generally agree that the Saints' players let themselves in front of the sticks in 09... you're very consistent with this point which implies you believe people believe the contrary... can you demonstrate why you think this...

It seems to me that you're the only one that says this... so that in turn you can then ridicule the point that no one made to justify your rant

I believe he coached poorly on the day. I also believe that if we'd capitalised on our dominance, we'd have more than likely won - is that unreasonable?

5) Players are responsible for winning games more than coaches.

Agree but relevance? Again who is making the point to the contrary

I think that over time... years in fact, you and a few others have gotten so oppositional RE any criticism of the coaching on the day that you've actually drawn forumites into fighting you rather than debating the topic...
SO I bet that yes some forumites myself included may have at one point or another said words to the effect of 'he cost us a flag' and that's wrong... it's not unreasonable however to suggest that his poor coaching on the day, amongst other things contributed to the loss.

It's funny in the all the time we've debated this... I've never heard your opinion of the match day coaching in the 09

3 times I've asked you in this thread now... YES or NO did RL coach well in the 09 Grandfinal? Wonder if I'll get an answer this time... doubt it

6) Coaches are responsible for preparing the team to win games

Again agree. This is an area that I believe RL is actually extremely good at though IMO he doesn't alter to the strengths and weaknesses or the opposition as well as other coaches do... rather his style tends to focus on maximising/minimising his own strengths/weaknesses. Better coaches can do both.

I could care if Lyon won a flag, in fact I hope he doesn't.

I think Lyon is a parasite who cant develop players and it was a dog act to leave our list in the state that he contributed to.

Have stated this on numerous occasion on this thread and over the years about Lyon, but I suppose it doesn't suit your strawman.

We're debating his coaching... one particular game more controversial than most... you have made those comments before... how are they relevant to the discussion

The last few pages of this thread are particularly interesting... Some forumites are giving examples, breaking down arguments etc and debating rather very well, whereas others repeat that they are right, abuse, twist words etc

Appreciate your support skeptic, and I think you are a bit hard on scollop and samoht but I suppose when your argument decends to calling others 'Lyon Lovers" and "knobjockeys", I suppose others will pick yup on that sort of abuse.

Well done for doing so.[/quote]

Aaah there's the highest form of wit shining through - please show me where I have called people Lyon lovers or Knobjockeys... or are you just making arguments with yourself again

[kosifantutti]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. Scollop happens to be my cousin - and my username is actually his son's name backwards. So if anyone takes scollop on, they are taking me on too. I also taught him all the buzz swear words (they are not really swear words, comeon!).

So you are only arguing to keep your cousin happy.

Secretly you believe:
Lyon did no wrong
Lyon had the right game plan
We overachieved under Lyon.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Why I believe my reminiscence merely draws you out Bunk... well done in taking the bait and not realising it

You don't think I saw it as a bait? lol

Lets examine some of your comments

lets counter you examination

Not an unreasonable view though there's some room to debate here.

Indeed, not the hate filled diatribes and spiteful glee and outright mistruths some have spouted.

Others such as Jonny Member have had reasoned well put arguments

Some people think he's an excellent coach, some think he is average, many are somewhere in between.

Yes, no revelation here

It's interesting that every time some one criticises his coaching, you feel the need to defend him.

Do I, be careful in using absolutes

It's funny how you criticise people for being "Lyon Haters" and then cry foul at being called a "Lyon Lover"... doing the very thing your criticising only the other extreme...

This is a distortion and mistruth. Name the exact poster I have named as Lyon haters. I could probably name maybe three on this thread saintspremiers, enrico, and whispers.

I don't class the others as haters. But some spout mistruths and outright lies to further their claims

it's even stranger because you yourself can see that Lyon has flaws but when other people express that, you play defender... like you're the only one that is 'even handed'.

Another distortion. I understand that like everybody Lyon is human, and there are many things that I did not like with his coaching. But outright furphies like it was Lyons game plan that cause the players to miss goals, and that Lyon was not a good coach because Scott Watters arrested the slide down the ladder when he did no such thing, statements that require challenging.

Now if it is your opinion that you believe I am the only one even handed, I cant help that. That is your view. All I can say is that I believe that posters such as Jonny member have been even handed,and balanced, even though I probably disagree with many of his thoughts on the subject.

And like many of the "Lyon Haters" have pointed out, he has plenty of strengths too... something that you again fail to acknowledge when branding everyone that dares criticise his GF performance a "Lyon Hater"

Oh dear more absolutes and mistruths. Now it might fit your insular little view of the world, but the plain facts are that this absolute statement is completely incorrect. But continue on, this is getting interesting.

I don't know of anyone that doesn't generally agree that the Saints' players let themselves in front of the sticks in 09... you're very consistent with this point which implies you believe people believe the contrary... can you demonstrate why you think this...

Go back to the early pages of this thread and read how our game plan was the reason why we kicked so poorly in the first half of the 2009 GF.

This has morphed into one poster railing about the underdog Bulldogs being better than us in a prelim which they lost because they had more inside 50's. When challenged about it obviously being Eades fault the Bulldogs kicked badly, you know like it was Lyons fault our players kicked badly at goal, it was either ignored or brushed off.

It seems to me that you're the only one that says this... so that in turn you can then ridicule the point that no one made to justify your rant

Well you are wrong once again. Getting tiresome point out your inaccuracies.

I believe he coached poorly on the day. I also believe that if we'd capitalised on our dominance, we'd have more than likely won - is that unreasonable?

Don't know. "Coached poorly" is a catch all, doesn't tell me how, why, with what, whom, where or when. I can point you to the fact that the Saints kicked 7.7 to 7.1 with Scheneider, McQualter, and Dempster missing from just about infront.

Agree but relevance? Again who is making the point to the contrary

Because many on this thread of 40 pages have absolved the players of any guilt in losing the match. Relevance is that they kicked poorly. And go back and read the entire thread and especially the first few pages

I think that over time... years in fact, you and a few others have gotten so oppositional RE any criticism of the coaching on the day that you've actually drawn forumites into fighting you rather than debating the topic...

Well, it can be seen from the above responses by me that your "thinking" needs a bit of work on its accuracy. And again you use absolutism to enhance your rather turgid argument.

Hilarious that I am such a wizard I can "draw" others into fighting rather than debating the topic. Oh that's right, I correct lies and mistruths and you accuse me of flame wars.

tell you what, report any of my posts in this thread, and we will see, otherwise keep you phoney ignorant psycho babble nonsense to yourself before you make even more of an embarrassment of yourself.

SO I bet that yes some forumites myself included may have at one point or another said words to the effect of 'he cost us a flag' and that's wrong... it's not unreasonable however to suggest that his poor coaching on the day, amongst other things contributed to the loss.

You can say whatever pops into your head, couldn't care less. I do care when some people outright lie to further their hatefilled diatribes against a coach

It's funny in the all the time we've debated this... I've never heard your opinion of the match day coaching in the 09

Who care what you have read or not. I have posted numerous times on the subject. Not for me to educate you. Do it your self.

3 times I've asked you in this thread now... YES or NO did RL coach well in the 09 Grandfinal? Wonder if I'll get an answer this time... doubt it

Ho hum, you are so boring. I have answered it on numerous occasions, and I have answered how I thought he coached in 2010 GF.

But because you are so eager to learn, I will say it once again

2009, Lyon coached OK. Not great, and was unwilling to change up when it was obvious the Cats were getting on top in the second half. Rushing bj back on with a broken nose and collarbone and not using Ball as much was a mistake.

But just as at fault were the players who would not kick straight in the first half.

Lyons biggest problem was that he was rigid in his game plan and loathe to change it.

2010, contrary to many I think his coaching in 2010 draw GF was no better than in 2009. He was forced to change the positions about because we were down by four goals and Gardiner was injured.

So he put Kosi in the ruck, Gilbo forward up forward and Ray on Swan. All inspired moves in hindsight, but would he have made them if Gardiner wasn't injured.

So in summary, his coaching in 2009 wasn't as bad as many make out, and his coaching in 2010 wasn't as good as many made out.

hope that satisifies

Again agree. This is an area that I believe RL is actually extremely good at though IMO he doesn't alter to the strengths and weaknesses or the opposition as well as other coaches do... rather his style tends to focus on maximising/minimising his own strengths/weaknesses. Better coaches can do both.

I don't believe your last sentence at all. Give me an example of another coach that does what you say, and how Lyon does not do it. I'll give you one gameday example that stand out like a beacon.

Ray onto Swan. Swan was killing us in 2010 until Ray went to him. Thompson is classed as a master coach for doing that with Bartel to Lenny in 2009, but Lyon is not given any credit.

We're debating his coaching... one particular game more controversial than most... you have made those comments before... how are they relevant to the discussion

Who said it was about one particular game? You don't make the rules on this thread, it is about Ross Lyon as a coach. Don't hijack it for your own purposes.

Aaah there's the highest form of wit shining through - please show me where I have called people Lyon lovers or Knobjockeys... or are you just making arguments with yourself again

Not you, scallop and samoht, have used terms lie Lyon lovers and knobjockeys in this thread to abuse anyone who doesn't slavishly fall into line with their hatefest.

I know that samoht was warned by the mods for baiting and abuse in this thread.

I thought that you were supporting me. Now I fear you ignore that type of behavior by the two I mentioned so you can back up your innacurate strawman.

This rebuttal has shown almost all of your statements to be either absolutist or just plain wrong.

Your opinions are moot and have no credibility when it comes to my posts on this thread.

Now go away and understand what you are talking about before you attempt to cross swords with me again. You have embarrassed yourself with this post, but it was fun to dissect it and show it for what it was - an empty vessel full of inanaties and mistruths.

[thejiggingsaint]

Hello, not bad weather for the time of year, is it? Did anyone see the Brownlow count? is it Grand Final this week? LOL!

[whiskers3614]

Some people mistake quantity for quality in debating.
Repeating the same stuff 20 different ways does not make it more correct than the first time it was said.

[skeptic]

Go back to the early pages of this thread and read how our game plan was the reason why we kicked so poorly in the first half of the 2009 GF.

This right here. An example of your bias. The posts your referring are not outright saying that the players are absolved of any wrong doing... or failed etc that is something that you have brought into the conversation. Even if the post is right and the game plan is too taxing and wore down the players (not saying it is) it's not saying that the players are absolved of wrong doing.

Well you are wrong once again. Getting tiresome point out your inaccuracies.

Wrong because you said so... wow... what are you gonna throw at me next... how about an 'is to is to'. Counter argument. No you're wrong

Don't know. "Coached poorly" is a catch all, doesn't tell me how, why, with what, whom, where or when. I can point you to the fact that the Saints kicked 7.7 to 7.1 with Scheneider, McQualter, and Dempster missing from just about infront.

Come on Bunk, you've had many discussions with forumites about poor coaching moves in the game... heck I even listed them 5 or so pages back. Now your just selectively playing dumb. It's weird that you think omission is a valid way to win an argument... this is just a waste of time when you play games like this

What is your point with you 7.7 to 7.1... you keep mentioning this. Is that your evidence that RL coached well?

Surely your argument can't be that when the players were dominating, RL gets credit for good coaching but it's the players fault alone when they miss?
If we bomb it into Riewoldt 3 on 1 all the time but he marks the ball is that good coaching?

Because many on this thread of 40 pages have absolved the players of any guilt in losing the match. Relevance is that they kicked poorly. And go back and read the entire thread and especially the first few pages

Covered this. The contentious point is that many also absolve the coach of any wrong doing as well

Well, it can be seen from the above responses by me that your "thinking" needs a bit of work on its accuracy. And again you use absolutism to enhance your rather turgid argument.

Hilarious that I am such a wizard I can "draw" others into fighting rather than debating the topic. Oh that's right, I correct lies and mistruths and you accuse me of flame wars.

tell you what, report any of my posts in this thread, and we will see, otherwise keep you phoney ignorant psycho babble nonsense to yourself before you make even more of an embarrassment of yourself.

Again I'm right because I say I'm right... classic

The middle point is that you are very good like plugger at shifting the topic - the most obvious strategy being, as you've done multiple times aleady in this response alone is report people as saying things they haven't actually said and responding to this 'new interpretation'... or alternatively you really are reading it like that in which case you need to slow down and try to better comprehend what you're reading.
Sometimes if an argument is silly... it may be because you have misunderstood it

But because you are so eager to learn, I will say it once again

2009, Lyon coached OK. Not great, and was unwilling to change up when it was obvious the Cats were getting on top in the second half. Rushing bj back on with a broken nose and collarbone and not using Ball as much was a mistake.

What were the moves that he did that were ok... what were the positives that you saw.
A theme with you is that you say this is that but fail to articulate how you got there. Acknowledging his failings on the day doesn't support the "he did ok" part.

But just as at fault were the players who would not kick straight in the first half

I don't think many people disagree with this

If the "Lyon Haters" are out there and still reading... someone want to own this one?

Lyons biggest problem was that he was rigid in his game plan and loathe to change it.

Again you've said that he did ok... where are the positives?

2010, contrary to many I think his coaching in 2010 draw GF was no better than in 2009. He was forced to change the positions about because we were down by four goals and Gardiner was injured.

So he put Kosi in the ruck, Gilbo forward up forward and Ray on Swan. All inspired moves in hindsight, but would he have made them if Gardiner wasn't injured.

So in summary, his coaching in 2009 wasn't as bad as many make out, and his coaching in 2010 wasn't as good as many made out.

hope that satisifies

Interesting thoughts for 2010... guess we'll never know

I don't believe your last sentence at all. Give me an example of another coach that does what you say, and how Lyon does not do it. I'll give you one gameday example that stand out like a beacon.

Ray onto Swan. Swan was killing us in 2010 until Ray went to him. Thompson is classed as a master coach for doing that with Bartel to Lenny in 2009, but Lyon is not given any credit

Again you misrepresent the point made. Where is the part that I say RL is incapable of making changes? I said it's not his strength.
Again, the examples have been posted on this thread but as you have said it's my role to educate you... i will give you on though

We played Geelong twice in 09... the first time our talls dominated with Gardiner playing his best game for the Saints, Chapman cut us up and they nearly ran over the top of us with their mids on top in the last quarter

How did we adapt?

Second time
We played really tall on a wet day
Chapman was tagged by...
And their mids ran over us whilst our extra one was...? And Luke Ball a player who's run and spread RL publically acknowledged as detrimental to us the first time... sat on the pine

GT was widely regarded as poor tactician... in the 04 pre-lim vs Port, Williams said it was the hardest game he ever coached... Voss shocking started forward... other moves happened... he had one really goodf night despite the loss. DOesn't mean GT is now there a master-tactician

Who said it was about one particular game? You don't make the rules on this thread, it is about Ross Lyon as a coach. Don't hijack it for your own purposes

You don't make the rules either... different conversations are being had between different people... it's not as simplistic as a pro and anti Ross side

this is the part of the thread I'm discussing with you


I'm sorry that you felt abused by other posters. I hope you reported them.

I will look at for further instances of this and report it as I see it.

My observation is that you have a very aggressive style of debating and are often involved in threads involving exchanges of abuse...
certainly that's been my experience with you and with the exception of plugger who also brings out the worst in me... generally I try to steer clear of that type of stuff as I'm more interested in the Saints.
My advice would be insult the points rather than the person

On the topic of RL

I actually don't think our views are polar opposites... the key difference seems to be that I attribute more of his success to the list he was given whereas I think you focus more on what he has been able to achieve with it and there are arguments to be made for both... heck the're nt mutually exclusive either.

Nonetheless I desist from this particular part of the conversation leaving you the final word if you so desire

[dragit]

like a fine wine.

[SaintPav]

like a fine wine.

What?

[kosifantutti]

I'm with scollop, on this. Some good posts.

I'll credit RL for one thing, and that is he got on top of our spate of soft tissue injuries.

However, as a coach, especially from what I've seen in our finals, there was one major flaw in his game plan, IMHO - our forward 50 defensive pressure was lacking. It's ironic that a so called defensive coach could not get this area right.

Take any opposition half back line in the finals, whether it be Milburn, Enright, Corey or Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien , even Harbrow etc..for the Bulldogs, and the common denominator was our lack of F50 defensive pressure and therefore the amount of rebound and free run that we allowed the opposition half backs. We nearly lost the final against the Bulldogs due to Harbrow's run and carry - Milburn kept rebounding everything in the final - he had a huge game and influence. Shaw, Thomas and O'Brien - their run and carry could not be curbed. Harbrow, for instance, had his career-high 36 possessions v St Kilda, 30th Apr 2010 as a half back - it typifies our lack of F50 pressure.
A major, major flaw - which was never rectified. And it cost us.

So why did it take so long for you to come to this conclusion? It's totally contradictory to what you were saying at the time. (Nov 2010)

Subject: Lyon Promises Exciting Footy

I don't think Lyon has done any wrong... he had the right game plan.

He realised the strength of our team - is the backline - and organised the team around it.

Our recruiters on the other hand cannot escape blame - for not targeting young quick skillful running players and medium sized forwards years ago.
They finally (too late) became desperate and went after Peake and Lovett.

Every year that passed (the last 10 years) we increasingly needed quick skillful players and medium forwards - but we didn't recruit to our needs.

We have a good backline but it too needed to be broken up and weakened to bolster a very average forward line (lacking medium forwards) in this year's finals.

Hayes and Goddard and our backline can't keep carrying the team - Montagna only had 13 possessions in GF2 - our midfield does not run deep... we have too many small forwards(who get belted in the finals)and not one medium sized forward.

In many ways - we overachieved under Lyon... given our teams weaknesses which get exposed every time we play lowly Essendon.

Let's hope our backline together with Hayes and Goddard can keep carrying us over the line.

[stinger]

Can't believe this thread is still going!
Imagine how bad it would be if Big Mart was still here!

+1

[samoht]

I'm with scollop, on this. Some good posts.

I'll credit RL for one thing, and that is he got on top of our spate of soft tissue injuries.

However, as a coach, especially from what I've seen in our finals, there was one major flaw in his game plan, IMHO - our forward 50 defensive pressure was lacking. It's ironic that a so called defensive coach could not get this area right.

Take any opposition half back line in the finals, whether it be Milburn, Enright, Corey or Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien , even Harbrow etc..for the Bulldogs, and the common denominator was our lack of F50 defensive pressure and therefore the amount of rebound and free run that we allowed the opposition half backs. We nearly lost the final against the Bulldogs due to Harbrow's run and carry - Milburn kept rebounding everything in the final - he had a huge game and influence. Shaw, Thomas and O'Brien - their run and carry could not be curbed. Harbrow, for instance, had his career-high 36 possessions v St Kilda, 30th Apr 2010 as a half back - it typifies our lack of F50 pressure.
A major, major flaw - which was never rectified. And it cost us.

So why did it take so long for you to come to this conclusion? It's totally contradictory to what you were saying at the time. (Nov 2010)

Subject: Lyon Promises Exciting Footy

I don't think Lyon has done any wrong... he had the right game plan.

He realised the strength of our team - is the backline - and organised the team around it.

Our recruiters on the other hand cannot escape blame - for not targeting young quick skillful running players and medium sized forwards years ago.
They finally (too late) became desperate and went after Peake and Lovett.

Every year that passed (the last 10 years) we increasingly needed quick skillful players and medium forwards - but we didn't recruit to our needs.

We have a good backline but it too needed to be broken up and weakened to bolster a very average forward line (lacking medium forwards) in this year's finals.

Hayes and Goddard and our backline can't keep carrying the team - Montagna only had 13 possessions in GF2 - our midfield does not run deep... we have too many small forwards(who get belted in the finals)and not one medium sized forward.

In many ways - we overachieved under Lyon... given our teams weaknesses which get exposed every time we play lowly Essendon.

Let's hope our backline together with Hayes and Goddard can keep carrying us over the line.

Since you went to all that trouble to drag up an old post, the least I could do is reply.

Note - that was a post back in 2010!

However, if you go back to 2010 and 2011 - you'll see other posts where I've mentioned our lack of F50 defensive pressure - and that i saw this as a major flaw and an area that we needed to improve on.

If you look back over my posts in this thread, I said I thought that all coaches are basically over-rated, and that Lyon is just another AFL coach. It's AFL coach vs AFL coach and basically a nil-all draw.
And as I said a few posts back - give me a generic coach and Dangerfield anytime over a so called "great" coach.

I can't understand the adulation of any coach. That's what I'm arguing against here - not just RL.

In the 2010 post you've cited -
I didn't say he's a great coach or even a very good coach - all I said was that he had the right game plan at the time, based on our strong backline - and that's what I thought back in 2010 and probably still do.

If you look back over my posts in this thread - I've rated RL a reasonable to good coach. On a par with most other AFL coaches.

In the 2010 post..
All I said was that recruiting was the area that we needed to get right - given that Essendon ran rings around us in a few games under RL - it was obvious that what our side needed most was pace and quick medium sized goal kickers, and goal-kicking midfielders. This is also true today.

We probably had the chance to recruit/draft Rioli and maybe Motlop ?- and some other young, quick players in prior years, but didn't.

Can we blame RL for this - no!

Can we blame RL and our recruiters for getting desperate and recruiting Peake and Lovett - given that we needed pace? If they were the same recruiters/decision-makers that missed out on drafting Rioli etc - then definitely yes!

RL inherited a very strong side - which nevertheless lacked pace in some areas and was exposed at times by very fast teams, like Essendon.
Luckily we matched up much better, pace-wise, against the top teams like Geelong and Collingwood. If we were up against top teams with the pace advantage that lowly Essendon had over us - we would have got destroyed by them! We/RL overachieved in this sense. In other words, given the top sides didn't have the same pace advantage over us (as Essendon did), RL was able to leverage off our strength - our strong backline -i.e., his game plan suited/was not found out against the top sides.
His game plan clearly didn't work against Essendon.

SW is irrelevant as a coach - I only brought him up, as a foil, to consider whether RL should be seen as a "very good" coach.

Since 2010 - and that post.
I'm not sure how RL would have gone for instance in 2012 - when our backline was decimated - as his game plan relied on the strength of our backline, as I said.
Our F50 defensive pressure waned, since late 2009, under RL. Some games we didn't lay a F50 defensive tackle.
The opposition halfbacks rebounded the ball at will, as a result - it happened to us regularly in the finals.

Do I see this as "very good" coaching ? - no!

I think SWactually improved our F50 defensive pressure - he seemed to reprioritise it, at least.

That was then, this is now.

One thing I've consistently said since year dot ...
I'll take a great recruiter over a so called "great" AFL coach anyday! I think a "great" AFL coach is the result of great recruiting and good timing.

I've had to repeat things over and over, ad infinitum, in this thread - but if I'm repeatedly being misinterpreted/misquoted/quoted out of context - and now having to answer to things dredged up from 4 years ago - I felt I had no other choice.

RL - no coach in fact - is worth all this thought and effort. Whoever is misinterpreting me (deliberately or otherwise) is not worth the effort. I'm stopping here.

Amen!

[Con Gorozidis]

A clarkson 3 flags.

anyone who tries to argue lyon is the best of the current coaches is seriously deluded and deranged.