Ross Lyon after today

[samoht]

Coaches are close to irrelevant in the scheme of things. It's not AFL coach vs a pork chop .. it's AFL coach vs AFL coach.

If you want to be a successful team you need to get other more important areas right - the number one of course is to recruit/trade for the best available young talent and then have the resources available to develop them.

Geelong has had sustained success - they've recruited well and have managed to defy gravity and stay up there. It's much more to do with their recruiters, trainers etc.. - very little to do with whoever happens to be coaching them.

So Port improved overnight because?

By recruiting the right players/best young talent available to them - who matured and gained experience.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Coaches are close to irrelevant in the scheme of things. It's not AFL coach vs a pork chop .. it's AFL coach vs AFL coach.

If you want to be a successful team you need to get other more important areas right - the number one of course is to recruit/trade for the best available young talent and then have the resources available to develop them.

Geelong has had sustained success - they've recruited well and have managed to defy gravity and stay up there. It's much more to do with their recruiters, trainers etc.. - very little to do with whoever happens to be coaching them. If coaches and recruiters have a short term outlook and go after recycled/reject players, then don't expect sustained success.

I tend to agree with this, however I think it is more a case that the influence of the coach on gameday is overrated.

I would think though what they during the other 6 days is very important and this is where the coach is ultra important

[dragit]

If coaches and recruiters have a short term outlook and go after recycled/reject players, then don't expect sustained success.

Try telling that to Sydney, Geelong and hawthorn... Half their sides are recycled and they're looking more.

[plugger66]

Coaches are close to irrelevant in the scheme of things. It's not AFL coach vs a pork chop .. it's AFL coach vs AFL coach.

If you want to be a successful team you need to get other more important areas right - the number one of course is to recruit/trade for the best available young talent and then have the resources available to develop them.

Geelong has had sustained success - they've recruited well and have managed to defy gravity and stay up there. It's much more to do with their recruiters, trainers etc.. - very little to do with whoever happens to be coaching them.

So Port improved overnight because?

By recruiting the right players/best young talent available to them - who matured and gained experience.

Overnight? So they haven't got a very good coach? Of course coaches matter. A great coach will never win a flag with a crap list but a bad coach can assure a great list wont win a flag.

[saintsRrising]

There are many pieces to the puzzle of having a very good AFL Team.

With Port they had many of the pieces but getting three very final important pieces has helped to complete their jig saw.

*** Hinkley as Coach. Right time, right man.

*** Darren Burgess = The Power have outstanding fitness and pace. Burgess is a big part of that. This is a huge advantage for them. ie Looks at the PF last night when they almost surged past the tiring Hawks.

*** Koch to sort out the disastrous off-field side. Admin and finances.= They say "Happy Wife,Happy Life", but it is equally true of AFL clubs. look at the successful clubs and you will normally see stable abd very good Boards and admin.

((The above points by the way is why I rate Lyon's time at the Saints as he had none of the above, plus came in with an inept recruiting department = the coach WAS the difference))

[loris]

There are many pieces to the puzzle of having a very good AFL Team.

With Port they had many of the pieces but getting three very final important pieces has helped to complete their jig saw.

*** Hinkley as Coach. Right time, right man.

*** Darren Burgess = The Power have outstanding fitness and pace. Burgess is a big part of that. This is a huge advantage for them. ie Looks at the PF last night when they almost surged past the tiring Hawks.

*** Koch to sort out the disastrous off-field side. Admin and finances.= They say "Happy Wife,Happy Life", but it is equally true of AFL clubs. look at the successful clubs and you will normally see stable abd very good Boards and admin.

((The above points by the way is why I rate Lyon's time at the Saints as he had none of the above, plus came in with an inept recruiting department = the coach WAS the difference))

Have u been on your Sth Africa safari adventure yet SR?

[Con Gorozidis]

Its all well and good to now say oh Hinkley recruited a good young list (which he did).

But the reality is they finished 14th in 2012. He still had to make it happen and get them up and running. Get the most out of their development.

The Saints finished 6th in 2006 before Lyon took over. So we were already decent.

[saintspremiers]

luckily the Hawks won as they are better equipped to challenge the Swines.

Let's just get it out there, you and samoht are serious closet "mighty" Hawks fans…

Hawthorn winning another flag would bring me no joy.

I'd prefer Sydney to smash them, Buddy & Tippett combine for 17 goals, just to highlight how absurd COLA is.

As Beekay says, Sydney winning is just like the AFL winning, a null year.

I'm not a Hawks fan but after the Saints they are my second team, ie I don't dislike them like I do most other sides.

Thanks for your theory on the Swines winning a flag being a null year.... I'll take on that attitude and then I can't lose out next week either way!

[Con Gorozidis]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

[stinger]

luckily the Hawks won as they are better equipped to challenge the Swines.

Let's just get it out there, you and samoht are serious closet "mighty" Hawks fans…

Hawthorn winning another flag would bring me no joy.

I'd prefer Sydney to smash them, Buddy & Tippett combine for 17 goals, just to highlight how absurd COLA is.

As Beekay says, Sydney winning is just like the AFL winning, a null year.

I'm not a Hawks fan but after the Saints they are my second team, ie I don't dislike them like I do most other sides.

Thanks for your theory on the Swines winning a flag being a null year.... I'll take on that attitude and then I can't lose out next week either way!

+1..if i have a secong team ..it is the hawks.....but i fear for them next weekend......so far i have 8 out of 8 in final selections...not sure which way to go this weekend...heart says hawks...head says swine....

[dragit]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

No imagination used there, just looks like a premiership tally.

Chris Scott? Nfw.

I rate Lyon ahead of Thompson, premierships aside... Tactically outplayed plenty of those other coaches too.

A dugong could have coached geelong to a flag in 2007.

Most people will agree with you though.

Is shane wowoeful a better player than Lenny Hayes? Has the runs in the board.

[Scollop]

Hinkley's courage at taking on the job at the struggling Power contrasts very differently to the situation when Toss landed the plum role at the Sainters...

Remind me again where Saints finished for 3 years before Toss arrived (oh that's right we were finalists 3 years running and it was 3rd, 4th and 6th) The famous story was...a senior coach had asked one of his assistants whether he would like to coach St Kilda and the assistant was quick to affirm his interest: "That's like being asked if you'd like to date Elle Macpherson."

No-one wanted the senior job at Port iirc. Hinkley was last man standing forward when everyone took a step a back...no wonder too...2008 Port finished 13th, 2009 10th, 2010 it was 10th place again, 2011 16th and 2012 they finished 14th.

Hinkley at this stage of his senior career is by far showing more.

Gee people have short memories and then of course there was this myth that Saints were an ordinary list. I understand how it happened. Lyonspeak was the modus operandi and kool aid the drink of choice.

[saintspremiers]

luckily the Hawks won as they are better equipped to challenge the Swines.

Let's just get it out there, you and samoht are serious closet "mighty" Hawks fans…

Hawthorn winning another flag would bring me no joy.

I'd prefer Sydney to smash them, Buddy & Tippett combine for 17 goals, just to highlight how absurd COLA is.

As Beekay says, Sydney winning is just like the AFL winning, a null year.

I'm not a Hawks fan but after the Saints they are my second team, ie I don't dislike them like I do most other sides.

Thanks for your theory on the Swines winning a flag being a null year.... I'll take on that attitude and then I can't lose out next week either way!

+1..if i have a secong team ..it is the hawks.....but i fear for them next weekend......so far i have 8 out of 8 in final selections...not sure which way to go this weekend...heart says hawks...head says swine....

Agree re the granny.
Bruce's bumchum Cyril looked rusty as you'd expect after 13 weeks out and I doubt he'd replace Lewis if he doesn't come up. Sewell will probably be the replacement.

But never write off the Hawks!

[Con Gorozidis]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

No imagination used there, just looks like a premiership tally.

Chris Scott? Nfw.

I rate Lyon ahead of Thompson, premierships aside... Tactically outplayed plenty of those other coaches too.

A dugong could have coached geelong to a flag in 2007.

Most people will agree with you though.

Is shane wowoeful a better player than Lenny Hayes? Has the runs in the board.

OK lets base it on some imagined cult like fantasy kool aid mysticism which somehow makes Lyon a god despite reality. The aim of the game for coaches is to win flags. The aim for players is not to win Brownlows.


What should we base it on? AS scollop pointed out Lyon inherited a side who had just finished 3rd, 4th, 6th - and then improved them slightly.
We were already very very good.

One could lodge a strong argument that Lyon wouldnt even be top 10 if you took that into account.

In reality my list was based on two key factors. 1 Flags and 2. Improvement from what you inherited and coming up from low positions gets your bonus points.

If you know of better more 'creative' criteria Im all ears. On Point 2 then I should have Hinkley higher already.

[Con Gorozidis]

Hinkley's courage at taking on the job at the struggling Power contrasts very differently to the situation when Toss landed the plum role at the Sainters...

Remind me again where Saints finished for 3 years before Toss arrived (oh that's right we were finalists 3 years running and it was 3rd, 4th and 6th) The famous story was...a senior coach had asked one of his assistants whether he would like to coach St Kilda and the assistant was quick to affirm his interest: "That's like being asked if you'd like to date Elle Macpherson."

No-one wanted the senior job at Port iirc. Hinkley was last man standing forward when everyone took a step a back...no wonder too...2008 Port finished 13th, 2009 10th, 2010 it was 10th place again, 2011 16th and 2012 they finished 14th.

Hinkley at this stage of his senior career is by far showing more.

Gee people have short memories and then of course there was this myth that Saints were an ordinary list. I understand how it happened. Lyonspeak was the modus operandi and kool aid the drink of choice.

you nailed it.

the toss apologists are just mystics. they want to believe in an ideology or a myth.

[Scollop]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

No imagination used there, just looks like a premiership tally.

Chris Scott? Nfw.

I rate Lyon ahead of Thompson, premierships aside... Tactically outplayed plenty of those other coaches too.

A dugong could have coached geelong to a flag in 2007.

Most people will agree with you though.

Is shane wowoeful a better player than Lenny Hayes? Has the runs in the board.

So if a coach isn't rated on Premeirships what do you reckon he should be rated on - maybe player development and list building or the way he leaves a list perhaps? So perhaps Con's opinion is spot on

As for wowoe.. How many B&F's did Shane win again?

How many finals did he play again? How many Norm Smiths did he win again?

Yeah I get your point...uhhhhm...no actually...what is your point?

[Con Gorozidis]

The wowo example is a poor one because players do not aim for Brownlow votes. Name one player ever in history whose coaches have judged them on Brownlow votes?

Coaches aim for flags and winning games and list development.

Lyon was good on 1/3 of those aims.

[Con Gorozidis]

A dugong could have coached geelong to a flag in 2007.

Geelong finished 10th in 2006 - so it would have had to have been one hell of a clever Dugong to get them from 10th to 1st in 12 months.

[dragit]

Hinkley's courage

I'll stop you right there before the dribbling gets out of hand.
Hinkley had been knocked back by about a dozen clubs for the head coach role(who knows why, maybe he just interviews poorly) but there was no courage needed to accept a 3 year million dollar afl head coach position.

So spare us the drama, he looks to be a great coach.

[whiskers3614]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

wtf starts in 2000 and no Kevin Sheedy?
Posters on here get so excited by 19 in a row, Bombers 2000 season a fair way ahead of our 2009!

[Con Gorozidis]

This is how I would rate the top 10 coaches since 2000.

1. Clarkson
2. Matthews
3. Thompson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*

* only 2 years in the job.

wtf starts in 2000 and no Kevin Sheedy?
Posters on here get so excited by 19 in a row, Bombers 2000 season a fair way ahead of our 2009!

Yes yes Put him in! Was overlooked but not deliberately. Sheeds makes that top 5.

[plugger66]

luckily the Hawks won as they are better equipped to challenge the Swines.

Let's just get it out there, you and samoht are serious closet "mighty" Hawks fans…

Hawthorn winning another flag would bring me no joy.

I'd prefer Sydney to smash them, Buddy & Tippett combine for 17 goals, just to highlight how absurd COLA is.

As Beekay says, Sydney winning is just like the AFL winning, a null year.

I'm not a Hawks fan but after the Saints they are my second team, ie I don't dislike them like I do most other sides.

Thanks for your theory on the Swines winning a flag being a null year.... I'll take on that attitude and then I can't lose out next week either way!

+1..if i have a secong team ..it is the hawks.....but i fear for them next weekend......so far i have 8 out of 8 in final selections...not sure which way to go this weekend...heart says hawks...head says swine....

Why not tell us before the event instead of after as you have now. I got 196 right in the home and away season. Not bad I reckon.

[plugger66]

Hinkley's courage at taking on the job at the struggling Power contrasts very differently to the situation when Toss landed the plum role at the Sainters...

Remind me again where Saints finished for 3 years before Toss arrived (oh that's right we were finalists 3 years running and it was 3rd, 4th and 6th) The famous story was...a senior coach had asked one of his assistants whether he would like to coach St Kilda and the assistant was quick to affirm his interest: "That's like being asked if you'd like to date Elle Macpherson."

No-one wanted the senior job at Port iirc. Hinkley was last man standing forward when everyone took a step a back...no wonder too...2008 Port finished 13th, 2009 10th, 2010 it was 10th place again, 2011 16th and 2012 they finished 14th.

Hinkley at this stage of his senior career is by far showing more.

Gee people have short memories and then of course there was this myth that Saints were an ordinary list. I understand how it happened. Lyonspeak was the modus operandi and kool aid the drink of choice.

you nailed it.

the toss apologists are just mystics. they want to believe in an ideology or a myth.

Got that quinella. Paid $1.10 though.

[saintsRrising]

Have u been on your Sth Africa safari adventure yet SR?

No, not yet. That is for 6 weeks over July/August 2015.

I have just about finished with the planning and booking phase..

If you are interested in what I will be doing you can read more here:

Nairobi to Cape Town: Planes, Trains and Automobiles (4WD)…..and yes wildlife too!!!

http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com. ... 62930.html

[dragit]

OK lets base it on some imagined cult like fantasy kool aid mysticism which somehow makes Lyon a god despite reality. The aim of the game for coaches is to win flags. The aim for players is not to win Brownlows.


What should we base it on? AS scollop pointed out Lyon inherited a side who had just finished 3rd, 4th, 6th - and then improved them slightly.
We were already very very good.

One could lodge a strong argument that Lyon wouldnt even be top 10 if you took that into account.

In reality my list was based on two key factors. 1 Flags and 2. Improvement from what you inherited and coming up from low positions gets your bonus points.

If you know of better more 'creative' criteria Im all ears. On Point 2 then I should have Hinkley higher already.

I must say I don't quite get the Kool Aid analogy here… it's so far off the mark it's not funny. Am I one of the kool aid death cult victims because I think a football coach is pretty good?

The best analogy I can think of Con for yourself would be around your obsession with muscular men working out all summer together all hot & sweaty over the pre-season & getting really ripped…

Now although there are plenty of people here who would assume that this means you are a massive closet homosexual with a fetish for macho… I'm not sure if that's a fair assumption to make.

I think your criteria are pretty simplistic:
1 Flags
and
2. Improvement from what you inherited

You have suggested multiple times that you think Lyon has been extremely unlucky not to have won at least one flag.

So basically you are saying that a slice of luck separates Lyon from 10th or 11th to 3rd? Is that right? That seems weird to me… Schneider kicking a goal from 15 meters out and a Hawkins poster being correctly called are the difference in a coach being considered one of the best of the era, to just a plodder.

So many variables when ranking them against each other, but I probably have Lyon higher as on a number of occasions I can remember his sides beating superior sides on paper in big games. I think luck does play a big part in the end, and with a little more he could have 2, the same as Thompson and Clarkson - who I think was very luck to win 2008, but is clearly a very good coach who has had a super list and football department the entire time.

Let me ask you this, if all of those coaches were available and you were in charge of hiring a new coach for either GWS or gold coast, would your order be the same (removing retirees)?

1. Clarkson
4. M Malthouse
5. Worsfold
6. Longmire
7. Roos
8. M Williams
9. C.Scott
10. R Lyon
*11. K Hinkley*


Dugongs are very smart BTW, and they generally do a lot less coke than Bomber, so I would back a decent dugong all thing being equal.