Delistings 2015

[SainterK]

from tonight's performance Gwilt and Schneider should Retire.

11cm....

11cm shorter? Yet the taller man out runs him? right.

Shouldn't be on Lynch, how that is twisted into his fault I'm not sure.

[Freebird]

with those contracts it may have had something to do with the cap ... we have to pay i think it is 90% of the cap every year , with the raft of young kids coming in i would imagine those contracts were given to make sure we could lose the cap $ from cutting Goddard and Dal while still being in the 90% range ...

95% but surely that doesnt mean we just waste money to get to the 95%.

Obviously a few on here do not think ahead StTrav...If Pelchin wants to bring in a free agent for the 2016 season he will want the cap freed up to the max. Will also want relief to reward our young ones if and when they improve.

[kalsaint]

We'll probably promote Weller and Templeton. Maybe promote Shenton. Minch might have earned yet another rookie year or might be gone, hard to see him promoted. We might try to push Markworth or Pierce down to the rookie list (which means delisting them and picking them up late in the rookie draft).

Delisting order with previously listed reasons:
Dennis-Lane - obviously gone
Maister - been a good servant but not AFL standard
Dunell - unless he does something amazing in the next week or two
Jones - out of the bottom side at this stage of the season isn't a good sign for a 30 year old
Gwilt - not useful any more for mine
Hayes - can't see him going on
Schneider and/or Fisher are possibilities dependent on their bodies going another year at AFL intensity levels. Both are clever in their roles and that makes good field coaching/talk.

Dempster, Siposs are on recent contracts. Roo, Montagna, Gilbert, Armitage and Ray all needed. Stanley is an enigma. Could be traded but would offer another year for improvement in consistency.

Last year's quality drafts all remain. Team structure build around these guys with; Longer, Bruce, Delaney, Steven, Newnes, Ross, Weller, Savage, Webster, Wright, Minchington, Lee, with recruitment focussed on some bigger bodies in the midfield and/or defence. Recruit or draft a bigger player eg Lycett or alternative to provide flexibility. Midfielders are the prime draft preference.

All others are optional in terms of rookie listing or deletions.

[kalsaint]

with those contracts it may have had something to do with the cap ... we have to pay i think it is 90% of the cap every year , with the raft of young kids coming in i would imagine those contracts were given to make sure we could lose the cap $ from cutting Goddard and Dal while still being in the 90% range ...

95% but surely that doesnt mean we just waste money to get to the 95%.

well yeah it does ...
if we are building a war chest of funds then we would be "wasting money" on players who will be removed off the list by the time we go to use the $$

say Dals wage was accounting for 8% of the cap so losing him means we need to spend that somewhere else you sign a Ray Sipposs and Milera for a longer contract to cover that % for the period while you have no interest in hunting the big signing.... then when the time comes to poach a big fish your three blokes come out of contract and you have the cap space to chase the player you want ...

Wouldnt we better giving it to those you are just about certain that will be on the list like Rooy, Joey, Steven, Armo etc than those who really have never shown much at all.

Totally agree Plugger. We don't seem to have a good performance record attributed from extending mid tier players contracts. Chips is probably the biggest catch we had late in drafts and other club pickings never really developed sufficiently to be top quality.

[plugger66]

with those contracts it may have had something to do with the cap ... we have to pay i think it is 90% of the cap every year , with the raft of young kids coming in i would imagine those contracts were given to make sure we could lose the cap $ from cutting Goddard and Dal while still being in the 90% range ...

95% but surely that doesnt mean we just waste money to get to the 95%.

Obviously a few on here do not think ahead StTrav...If Pelchin wants to bring in a free agent for the 2016 season he will want the cap freed up to the max. Will also want relief to reward our young ones if and when they improve.

No idea why you quoted my post to make your statement. The cap must be 95%. You get that surely? Maybe not by the looks of your post.

[saintsRrising]

Definites:

Retired:Hayes, Maister
Delist if not retired: CJ, Dunell, TDL

In the balance:
Simpkin, Milera, Minch (R) and Shenton (R)

Shenton more likely to be elevated than Minch, but I think at this stage neither is likely.

With Shenton the recent good form of Savage and Roberton off HB may deny him an elevation combined with the club sticking with Gwilt and Dempster

Elevations:
Templeton and Weller.


Maybe 4 picks in the draft and if we finish bottom perhaps 1 in the PSD.

After last night Schneider would have to be lucky to be given another year.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

with those contracts it may have had something to do with the cap ... we have to pay i think it is 90% of the cap every year , with the raft of young kids coming in i would imagine those contracts were given to make sure we could lose the cap $ from cutting Goddard and Dal while still being in the 90% range ...

95% but surely that doesnt mean we just waste money to get to the 95%.

Obviously a few on here do not think ahead StTrav...If Pelchin wants to bring in a free agent for the 2016 season he will want the cap freed up to the max. Will also want relief to reward our young ones if and when they improve.

No idea why you quoted my post to make your statement. The cap must be 95%. You get that surely? Maybe not by the looks of your post.

its not that hard to figure out Pluggs .... we keep some "might come good" players on the list to top up the 95% cap payment ... every team needs the three tiers of players ..
the top paid guys - like Roo Lenny Joey Fisher Dempster and i would imagine Steven and Armo the guys who are the marquee players who get long contracts
the well paid guys - like Ray, Stanley, Gilbert , sippos, Milera basically the guys in their second to 4th contracts with the club
the basic paid guys - basically the guys in their first contracts

the way our team is going at the moment we will have less in the top paid guys and more in the basic paid guys so in order to cover that while we are rebuilding we need to keep more of the well paid guys to keep our 95% payments ...
now we could just pay the top guys more but then you set the trend of always paying them more
we could pay the basic guys more but again you have to then keep that up to keep them on the list when they start to come good
by keeping mid range players if we dont want to pay them that much anymore we just cut them
so in effect we keep a Milera Ray and Sipposs on the list to clog up some of the cap $$ while building then when we are ready to use free agency we cut all three draft two basic wage players and put the rest into landing that free agent ...

its a long game so some moves made now are made to set up moves in two to three years time

[dragit]

Ray is building towards 200 AFL games, so I don't mind him being paid decently…

But guys like Milera, Siposs, Markworth, Simpkin, Ross shouldn't be getting much over minimum wage for their bracket. If you can't get a regular game in the 18th side, then you probably wouldn't get a game at any other side… therefore don't deserve a pay rise.

[gringo]

Ray is building towards 200 AFL games, so I don't mind him being paid decently…

But guys like Milera, Siposs, Markworth, Simpkin, Ross shouldn't be getting much over minimum wage for their bracket. If you can't get a regular game in the 18th side, then you probably wouldn't get a game at any other side… therefore don't deserve a pay rise.

Ray has been mister consistent this year. I have never been a massive fan as he's always been a solid B player, but this year he has really stood up and carried himself at a very high standard. He has been one of the best performed old guys this year. I thought he was as good as gone after 2013.

[plugger66]

with those contracts it may have had something to do with the cap ... we have to pay i think it is 90% of the cap every year , with the raft of young kids coming in i would imagine those contracts were given to make sure we could lose the cap $ from cutting Goddard and Dal while still being in the 90% range ...

95% but surely that doesnt mean we just waste money to get to the 95%.

Obviously a few on here do not think ahead StTrav...If Pelchin wants to bring in a free agent for the 2016 season he will want the cap freed up to the max. Will also want relief to reward our young ones if and when they improve.

No idea why you quoted my post to make your statement. The cap must be 95%. You get that surely? Maybe not by the looks of your post.

its not that hard to figure out Pluggs .... we keep some "might come good" players on the list to top up the 95% cap payment ... every team needs the three tiers of players ..
the top paid guys - like Roo Lenny Joey Fisher Dempster and i would imagine Steven and Armo the guys who are the marquee players who get long contracts
the well paid guys - like Ray, Stanley, Gilbert , sippos, Milera basically the guys in their second to 4th contracts with the club
the basic paid guys - basically the guys in their first contracts

the way our team is going at the moment we will have less in the top paid guys and more in the basic paid guys so in order to cover that while we are rebuilding we need to keep more of the well paid guys to keep our 95% payments ...
now we could just pay the top guys more but then you set the trend of always paying them more
we could pay the basic guys more but again you have to then keep that up to keep them on the list when they start to come good
by keeping mid range players if we dont want to pay them that much anymore we just cut them
so in effect we keep a Milera Ray and Sipposs on the list to clog up some of the cap $$ while building then when we are ready to use free agency we cut all three draft two basic wage players and put the rest into landing that free agent ...

its a long game so some moves made now are made to set up moves in two to three years time

Still dont get it. You are saying we basically play the guys who we can delist more so that when we want a FA we can delist them. I stand by what I said. Wouldnt it better paying the older guys more than goes who have never deserved it. It is pretty obvious when these older guys will retire or be delisted anyway so I still say they will have the space for FA. I rather that than giving money to Milera and Siposs because its easy to delist them. Surely our list management group arent doing that. And its not setting a bad trend paying to much to older guys because no one else knows what anyone else is earning.

[tony74]

Jones,Ross,TDL,Simpkin,Maister,Dunnel,Hayes.
I think we will trade our first pick for 2 picks inside the top 25.
And don't be surprised if they offer a late draft pick for Aaron Black.

[dragit]

Seb Ross?

[dragit]

Simpkin has another year to run too Tony doesn't he?

[saintspremiers]

Jones,Ross,TDL,Simpkin,Maister,Dunnel,Hayes.
I think we will trade our first pick for 2 picks inside the top 25.
And don't be surprised if they offer a late draft pick for Aaron Black.

Surely Milera would be ditched?

Sad that Sippa and Lee are both to be kept.

[Saint wagga]

Jones,Ross,TDL,Simpkin,Maister,Dunnel,Hayes.
I think we will trade our first pick for 2 picks inside the top 25.
And don't be surprised if they offer a late draft pick for Aaron Black.

Thanks Tony - you seem to be a man with a finger very close to a main artery so I read your summary with great interest (and a bit of dissapointment as I've held pretty high hopes for Seb Ross, but looks like Dunstan, Weller and even TC may have passed him by in the bigger bodied mid role...he may get something decent at the trade table too). Can't say i'm a big wrap on Black from North, but guess he's a short to medium term genuine forward target in the Maister type role only hopefully better.

[Beno88]

Losing Seb Ross and gaining Aaron Black would smell a lot like losing Tom Lynch and gaining Beau Maister.

[dragit]

There's no way North would give up Black for a late pick… a key forward taken at pick 25, with 5 years of development…

He's no superstar, but with Petrie winding up, he's their next best Key Forward.

[Saints94]

There's no way North would give up Black for a late pick… a key forward taken at pick 25, with 5 years of development…

He's no superstar, but with Petrie winding up, he's their next best Key Forward.

+1 Freo would be all over him if he considered leaving imo.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think Milera has had an ok season.
Has had at least 5 very good AFL games and was not disgraced in his stint in the AFL. Miles from our worst. Should replace Schneider this week.

If Tony is right and we offer new contracts to all three of Gwilt, Schneider and Fisher I think the club is in the wrong hands and making the wrong decisions. It would have me lose faith in Pelican/Bains. Are they making decisions for the future or is the club really run by a senior player clique of 'mates'?

[Saints94]

I think Milera has had an ok season.
Has had at least 5 very good AFL games and was not disgraced in his stint in the AFL. Miles from our worst. Should replace Schneider this week.

If Tony is right and we offer new contracts to all three of Gwilt, Schneider and Fisher I think the club is in the wrong hands and making the wrong decisions. It would have me lose faith in Pelican/Bains.

But we don't want to do a "Melbourne" & have no seasoned experienced players running around, that is why imo I want players like Ray, Gwilt etc around the club.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think Milera has had an ok season.
Has had at least 5 very good AFL games and was not disgraced in his stint in the AFL. Miles from our worst. Should replace Schneider this week.

If Tony is right and we offer new contracts to all three of Gwilt, Schneider and Fisher I think the club is in the wrong hands and making the wrong decisions. It would have me lose faith in Pelican/Bains.

But we don't want to do a "Melbourne" & have no seasoned experienced players running around, that is why imo I want players like Ray, Gwilt etc around the club.

Ill take that as you winding me up.
Id keep 2 of gwilt fisher schneider but not all 3.

We already have ray dempster roo joey fisher gwilt jones schneider geary armo - thats 10 experienced players . i think if we keep 7 or 8 thats PLENTY of experienced players (how many exactly do you think we need on the list when we are on the bottom???).

im not sure whether you are winding me up on melbourne - but its a total myth that losing their experience was their problem This is a bs myth perpetuated by those who simply like the emotional blanket of keeping our old players and who want to live in 09 and cant move on and face the facts.

Scully 20
Rivers - 24
McClean - 25
Thompson -22
Moloney 25

Melbourne lost young players and guys at their peak. That was one of their biggest mistakes imho. Then there was the coaching (Neeld) and making 2 x 20 year olds captain. + the tanking.

This crap that Melbourne are no good because they 'lost all their experience at once' is utter crap. And we are in absolutely no fear of losing all our experience (see above we have 10 experienced players).

This is a nonsense argument from people who simply cant face change and cant face where we are at.

Add to that - experience alone shouldn't keep you on the list. Otherwise lets just get Baker, Burke, Hudgton and Loewe back.
Because you were good 5 years ago doesn't mean you offer current or future value.

[amusingname]

I would think that the melbourne example is more about losing Cam Bruce, James McDonald and Brad Green (as well as Brad Miller to a lesser extent) in a reasonably short timeframe, especially as the first two went on to play another year elsewhere.

[dragit]

This crap that Melbourne are no good because they 'lost all their experience at once' is utter crap.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, you are completely disregarding the truth here mate.

Here's a few players missing from your list which did impact their ability to compete post 2006

2007
Daniel Ward - 30 - 136 games
Simon Godfrey - 26 - 105 games
Travis Johnstone 27 - 160 games
2008
Jeff White - 31 - 268 games
Adam Yze - 30 - 271 games
2009
Paul Wheatley - 28 - 135 games
Matthew Whelan - 29 - 150 games
Russell Robertson - 30 - 228 games
2010
Brad Miller - 27 - 133 games
Daniel Bell - 25 - 66 games
Cameron Bruce - 30 - 224 games
2011
Mathew Warnock - 27 - 55 games

Not all guns, but most solid AFL footballers.

There are probably more I have left out.

[plugger66]

I think Milera has had an ok season.
Has had at least 5 very good AFL games and was not disgraced in his stint in the AFL. Miles from our worst. Should replace Schneider this week.

If Tony is right and we offer new contracts to all three of Gwilt, Schneider and Fisher I think the club is in the wrong hands and making the wrong decisions. It would have me lose faith in Pelican/Bains. Are they making decisions for the future or is the club really run by a senior player clique of 'mates'?

What is an ok season? Whats he played? About 5 games. If he hasnt got a contract he must go but it seems the club have stuffed up contracts. Simpkin and Siposs also have contracts when there was no need.

[Con Gorozidis]

This crap that Melbourne are no good because they 'lost all their experience at once' is utter crap.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, you are completely disregarding the truth here mate.

Here's a few players missing from your list which did impact their ability to compete post 2006

2007
Daniel Ward - 30 - 136 games
Simon Godfrey - 26 - 105 games
Travis Johnstone 27 - 160 games
2008
Jeff White - 31 - 268 games
Adam Yze - 30 - 271 games
2009
Paul Wheatley - 28 - 135 games
Matthew Whelan - 29 - 150 games
Russell Robertson - 30 - 228 games
2010
Brad Miller - 27 - 133 games
Daniel Bell - 25 - 66 games
Cameron Bruce - 30 - 224 games
2011
Mathew Warnock - 27 - 55 games

Not all guns, but most solid AFL footballers.

There are probably more I have left out.

Gee whizz there is some average players amongst that lot.Not sure if that weakens or strengthens my argument. None of those guys would be helping them off 2nd bottom now.
Frankly Melbourne have been a rabble for quite some time and it is probably too simplistic to put their woes down to one single factor. It is multi factorial. I mean you could do an incredible list of quality Geelong experienced players that have been cut in the last 5 years - yet they are sitting 2nd.

I guess we should just look at ourselves as comparing with outside clubs doesnt really help much.

The two questions are:

1. How many experienced players do we need when we are already sitting bottom and the senior players are no longer good enough to keep us mid-table?

Remember one of the old arguments for retaining senior/experienced players used to be that we couldnt afford to bottom out and we could have an orderly transition between generations where we dropped to mid table. This was known at the time (2011-12) as the 'Sydney model'. This argument is no longer appropriate or achievable. It was also a very popular argument at the time.

AND

2. On a case by case basis - which players offer good future value (not past value)?

p.s I appreciate that research effort dragit . It does add some substance to the discussion.