What exactly has Scott done?

[plugger66]

There you go
See wasn't that hard was it.
You actually gave a decent adult response plugger.
Well done.
You should do it more often.
(Id argue its easier on the ego to blame the coach and the game plan rather than admitting you just aint good enough anymore)

Is our game plan radically different to anyone elses?

You have just decided only older players are thinking what i said. Im unsure that is the case at all. As for the game plan being different i dont know enough about footy to say that. you need to see all the above ground vision and things that we dont have access to to know that. dont let others on here say they know our exact game plan because if they do they must be amazing people considering it takes players months to learn and they do it full time. As for my response I would suggest you dont mention adult responses after the crap you wrote the other day on a couple of players and doing weights.

You're all over the joint like a mad woman's breakfast. In 1 post you name 4 senior players and allude to them being miffed, or some such. Next post you definitively state "The main issue IS"...let me repeat that, "IS", and go on to talk about the game plan and how people are "pissed off".

Next up you hint at more than older players being similarly minded, then say you don't even know if the game plan is different.

If that "IS" the "main issue", it's awfully skinny. You are also suggesting older players, may be some not so older players, can't get their heads around the myriad reasons why we slid. So, the game plan is the cure all, eh? That's what the players think, is it? Cattle got nuttin' to do with it, injuries, form, playing list, young blokes playing before they're ready - nuttin' else, just the game plan.

You must have a pretty low opinion of those players if you reckon they have decided that's the problem, and that's why they're upset.

It's a very good example of why I don't buy the line being peddled - it's got no plausible substance.

I suggest you read all mine and cons posts and then i think you will get why i mentioned 4 senior players. And i dont need to know the game plan as i am not a player. i suggest the players need to know the game plan though. Its funny but what i hear is first hand and what i wrote is very similar to what I heard. you can chose to take it or leave it. i couldnt give a stuff to be honest. As for the rest you have written i have no idea about any of that. never mentioned it but you have.

[Scollop]

To disgruntled supporters and insiders;

You are a fool if you think changing the coach will improve the side dramatically

You are a fool if you think having a consistent game plan - at this stage of the list rebuild - will dramatically improve our chance to play finals

You are fool if you don't understand that it is better for the club to keep Watters and work with Watters rather than sack Watters.

Oh and that's not just saying that we should keep him even though he's poor in his role...in fact I believe the opposite is true...If you don't think that Watters is a good coach to build confidence in the young individuals on our list atm you are a fool and you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes

Recall the video with Jimy Webster on his first match and the way he speaks positively about each of the guys debuting for us is exactly what these young blokes need. As far as developping and nurturing new talent - if they are going to be given every opportunity to improve, I believe SW is doing a very good job.

As far as whether some senior players have delusions of playing finals in 2014 if the coach is replaced with Ross Lyon or Alastair Clarkson or Mick Malthouse or Sir Alex Furgeson...you too are fools!!!!

[samoht]

Well said, TheOtherThommo and scollop.

The competition is very tight, and it only takes a 5% slide (we've probably slid more than that, through various reasons: older players, players leaving, injuries, no top draft picks over several years etc., as you've outlined) while other teams around us improve 5%-10% (which they have), to go down 8 -10 rungs on the ladder.
That's the reality and that's what's happened.

Even with the best game plan - quite a few of our players would still not be ready or developed enough to execute it - young bodies, fitness, experience, playing ability etc..

We were already sliding under RL in 2011, when we still had Gram, Goddard, etc.,and when our senior players were all two years younger - even though the teams around us back then hadn't improved as they have over the last couple of years.

It's easier to disrupt than to think.

[SainterK]

Cohesion isn't only the responsibility of the coach though, players bear some responsibility for their output?

[plugger66]

To disgruntled supporters and insiders;

You are a fool if you think changing the coach will improve the side dramatically

You are a fool if you think having a consistent game plan - at this stage of the list rebuild - will dramatically improve our chance to play finals

You are fool if you don't understand that it is better for the club to keep Watters and work with Watters rather than sack Watters.

Oh and that's not just saying that we should keep him even though he's poor in his role...in fact I believe the opposite is true...If you don't think that Watters is a good coach to build confidence in the young individuals on our list atm you are a fool and you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes

Recall the video with Jimy Webster on his first match and the way he speaks positively about each of the guys debuting for us is exactly what these young blokes need. As far as developping and nurturing new talent - if they are going to be given every opportunity to improve, I believe SW is doing a very good job.

As far as whether some senior players have delusions of playing finals in 2014 if the coach is replaced with Ross Lyon or Alastair Clarkson or Mick Malthouse or Sir Alex Furgeson...you too are fools!!!!

I agree on changing the coach and only a couple of people have suggested that. he has a year to go before we should even think about it but i could also say people are fools saying SW will be the answer no matter what. let the guy coach next year and then see if he meets targets.

A constant game plan may not improve the side in the short term but if players are confused and say it doesnt help changing it constantly then im guessing they would know the effect much more than us. Only a fool could suggest we know the effect more than players.

Let SW coach next year. Hopefully the club set realistic targets and hopefully he can meet them. Also pelchan and SW need to get on better. Our president said there had been issues. That is fact. They need to work togther otherwise it just wont work.

[samoht]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

[Scollop]

SW kept telling us in his after match pressers this year that he was going to ask Pelchen to target some KP defenders and fill some other 'holes'.

Pelchen fulfilled his end of the bargain...I'm sure that Pelchen has made some demands of SW too. I believe SW has done a great job in convincing or playing a part in convincing some players like Bruce and Longer and Savage to make Seaford their home. That seems to me like they are working brilliantly together...everything else you hear is just outside noise

[samoht]

SW kept telling us in his after match pressers this year that he was going to ask Pelchen to target some KP defenders and fill some other 'holes'.

Pelchen fulfilled his end of the bargain...I'm sure that Pelchen has made some demands of SW too. I believe SW has done a great job in convincing or playing a part in convincing some players like Bruce and Longer and Savage to make Seaford their home. That seems to me like they are working brilliantly together...everything else you hear is just outside noise

+1

[plugger66]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

Maybe you didnt read what i said. I said a constant game plan may not improve the side. I also said if players are complaining then it is an issue even if it isnt costing us games. We arent good enough at the moment but I reckon a consistant game plan is important for all sides, good or bad, otherwise coaches would waste many hours a week getting one up and running. Pretty much common sense i would think.

[plugger66]

SW kept telling us in his after match pressers this year that he was going to ask Pelchen to target some KP defenders and fill some other 'holes'.

Pelchen fulfilled his end of the bargain...I'm sure that Pelchen has made some demands of SW too. I believe SW has done a great job in convincing or playing a part in convincing some players like Bruce and Longer and Savage to make Seaford their home. That seems to me like they are working brilliantly together...everything else you hear is just outside noise

+1

Not a good start from our new president then because he was quoted, yes quoted, saying there had been some issues. maybe you both have some better knowledge than him.

[samoht]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

Maybe you didnt read what i said. I said a constant game plan may not improve the side. I also said if players are complaining then it is an issue even if it isnt costing us games. We arent good enough at the moment but I reckon a consistant game plan is important for all sides, good or bad, otherwise coaches would waste many hours a week getting one up and running. Pretty much common sense i would think.

I don't know what SW's game plan is exactly, but just going on what you're saying and what the players are supposedly complaining about..
Maybe it's best to be a chameleon - come up with a game plan that confuses the opposition, and tries to negate their strengths (and that varies from team to team) instead of the same 1 dimensional game plan that culminates in kicking the ball to 1 forward all the time?
If a consistent game plan is going to lose you games anyway, maybe it gives you an opportunity to tweak it and be innovative and variable/adaptive?

[stinger]

SW kept telling us in his after match pressers this year that he was going to ask Pelchen to target some KP defenders and fill some other 'holes'.

Pelchen fulfilled his end of the bargain...I'm sure that Pelchen has made some demands of SW too. I believe SW has done a great job in convincing or playing a part in convincing some players like Bruce and Longer and Savage to make Seaford their home. That seems to me like they are working brilliantly together...everything else you hear is just outside noise

+1

yep..count me in too....geez i hate it when some keyboard wanna be hero posts crap on here dressed up as fact that he has heard second or third hand and which can only damage the club......already the press are going with the story that there is unrest and disunity down at seaford....probably gleaned from reading tipbits this forum and the posts of a number of very disloyal supporters.....imhfo, that is....

[plugger66]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

Maybe you didnt read what i said. I said a constant game plan may not improve the side. I also said if players are complaining then it is an issue even if it isnt costing us games. We arent good enough at the moment but I reckon a consistant game plan is important for all sides, good or bad, otherwise coaches would waste many hours a week getting one up and running. Pretty much common sense i would think.

I don't know what SW's game plan is exactly, but just going on what you're saying and what the players are supposedly complaining about..
Maybe it's best to be a chameleon - come up with a game plan that confuses the opposition, and tries to negate their strengths (and that varies from team to team) instead of the same 1 dimensional game plan that culminates in kicking the ball to 1 forward all the time?
If a consistent game plan is going to lose you games anyway, maybe it gives you an opportunity to tweak it and be innovative and variable/adaptive?

Sounds good. When is he going to do that then? I dont know any of the clubs game plans but it seems that the media say the top clubs have a constant game plan. Some of those in the media have played a game or two more than me so i will trust them. You may have played AFL footy so you may know more than me or even some of them.

[Devilhead]

The competition is very tight, and it only takes a 5% slide (we've probably slid more than that, through various reasons: older players, players leaving, injuries, no top draft picks over several years etc., as you've outlined) while other teams around us improve 5%-10% (which they have), to go down 8 -10 rungs on the ladder.
That's the reality and that's what's happened.

Bang On!!

I think a few are not factoring in the improvement other sides have made ie: Richmond, Port, Gold Coast, Brisbane, etc.....

As pointed out a 10% downswing in output against another teams 10% improvement in output can lead to a 2 goal win in one season to 2 goal loss in the next.

We were smashed by injuuries to older key players this year and unfortunately our younger players struggled to fill the void - that said some performances shown by our youngsters bode very well for the future and there is no doubt that some teams will soon start to drop off as we start to improve.

Even with the best game plan - quite a few of our players would still not be ready or developed enough to execute it - young bodies, fitness, experience, playing ability etc..

Playing AFL football these days is a full time and well paid occupation - if the coach lays out 1 or 20 game plans it is the players job to learn these game plans and execute them - not complain because its all too hard or confusing - sure they might not be developed enough but if is the case then the players at least have something to strive for - cracking the sads isnt an option!!

If anyone knows anything about the NFL those blokes have hundreds of game plays to memorise - by knowing these game plays initimately when another team changes their defensive set up they can quickly adapt to counteract and vice versa when on defence.

It maybe a case of SW not being absolute clear with his game plan theory - if so he will need to review his teaching methods and change accordingly - however there should be no excuses for a player not to know what to do out on the field if an instruction has been given except of course if the said player is only blessed with half a brain cell which might be the case given our previous off field exploits.

[The OtherThommo]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

But, let's not forget, samoht, it took Lyon 2 years to establish his game plan with a very competent list in their prime.

I well remember a game on a Satdee night vs Hawthorn, in Lyon's 1st or 2nd year. It was at the G, and I sat in the MCC and watched it. It was the most abysmal game of football I'd seen since the Sydney draw at Etihad.

It was woeful, a blight on the game, press and flood, no-one go forward, half backs having 35+ possies, crowd either disinterested, leaving early or abusing coaches and players. Made big news at the post game pressers and all over the media in subsequent days.

That was Lyon vs Clarkson, 2 lauded coaches of the modern day, trying to work out what game plan to use with the lists they had.

To pot Watters on the basis of game plan, with where we are as a list, with the run we had in '13, is flat out ignorance, particularly when some decide to present it the "main issue".

I also note some have alluded to 'execution' being relevant....hall..e..freakin..lulah.

[plugger66]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

But, let's not forget, samoht, it took Lyon 2 years to establish his game plan with a very competent list in their prime.

I well remember a game on a Satdee night vs Hawthorn, in Lyon's 1st or 2nd year. It was at the G, and I sat in the MCC and watched it. It was the most abysmal game of football I'd seen since the Sydney draw at Etihad.

It was woeful, a blight on the game, press and flood, no-one go forward, half backs having 35+ possies, crowd either disinterested, leaving early or abusing coaches and players. Made big news at the post game pressers and all over the media in subsequent days.

That was Lyon vs Clarkson, 2 lauded coaches of the modern day, trying to work out what game plan to use with the lists they had.

To pot Watters on the basis of game plan, with where we are as a list, with the run we had in '13, is flat out ignorance, particularly when some decide to present it the "main issue".

I also note some have alluded to 'execution' being relevant....hall..e..freakin..lulah.

If a player or players say its the main issue this season then i will go with them ahead of anyone on here. As for execution any team well coached can execute a game plan, that doesnt mean they will win. It is ignorance to the extreme to suggest people here know more than some players. Maybe its all good on the SW front. Maybe I was told lies to my face. One thing i know is i didnt make up what i said. i hope others can say the same.

[The OtherThommo]

The game plan we used in the last 2 games this year wasn't too bad, plugger.

RL had a consistent game plan - but it too started to fail in 2010 and 2011, even though he had a strong list of experienced players to work with.

Did they become confused by his consistent game plan - what was their excuse back then?

But, let's not forget, samoht, it took Lyon 2 years to establish his game plan with a very competent list in their prime.

I well remember a game on a Satdee night vs Hawthorn, in Lyon's 1st or 2nd year. It was at the G, and I sat in the MCC and watched it. It was the most abysmal game of football I'd seen since the Sydney draw at Etihad.

It was woeful, a blight on the game, press and flood, no-one go forward, half backs having 35+ possies, crowd either disinterested, leaving early or abusing coaches and players. Made big news at the post game pressers and all over the media in subsequent days.

That was Lyon vs Clarkson, 2 lauded coaches of the modern day, trying to work out what game plan to use with the lists they had.

To pot Watters on the basis of game plan, with where we are as a list, with the run we had in '13, is flat out ignorance, particularly when some decide to present it the "main issue".

I also note some have alluded to 'execution' being relevant....hall..e..freakin..lulah.

If a player or players say its the main issue this season then i will go with them ahead of anyone on here. As for execution any team well coached can execute a game plan, that doesnt mean they will win. It is ignorance to the extreme to suggest people here know more than some players. Maybe its all good on the SW front. Maybe I was told lies to my face. One thing i know is i didnt make up what i said. i hope others can say the same.

Oh, spare me. I know damn well I'm expressing my opinion in this thread. It's got nuttin' to do with "facts" or "lies". However many players may have spoken to your face, you are still just relating opinion. The opinions of others (and 1 is left wondering how many), no more, no less.

I'm still struggling with just how strongly these opinions have been expressed to your "face". I would have thought it might be difficult to keep so many employed by the institution, if the situation is as dire as you revel in suggesting.

No, I'm not suggesting you're lying (just to block off that so often frequented resort). I am suggesting you interpret what is said to you (by however many) in ways that either exaggerate the reality, or suit your psyche. You're certainly not the only person to do such, but you're a pretty good example.

[plugger66]

]

But, let's not forget, samoht, it took Lyon 2 years to establish his game plan with a very competent list in their prime.

I well remember a game on a Satdee night vs Hawthorn, in Lyon's 1st or 2nd year. It was at the G, and I sat in the MCC and watched it. It was the most abysmal game of football I'd seen since the Sydney draw at Etihad.

It was woeful, a blight on the game, press and flood, no-one go forward, half backs having 35+ possies, crowd either disinterested, leaving early or abusing coaches and players. Made big news at the post game pressers and all over the media in subsequent days.

That was Lyon vs Clarkson, 2 lauded coaches of the modern day, trying to work out what game plan to use with the lists they had.

To pot Watters on the basis of game plan, with where we are as a list, with the run we had in '13, is flat out ignorance, particularly when some decide to present it the "main issue".

I also note some have alluded to 'execution' being relevant....hall..e..freakin..lulah.

If a player or players say its the main issue this season then i will go with them ahead of anyone on here. As for execution any team well coached can execute a game plan, that doesnt mean they will win. It is ignorance to the extreme to suggest people here know more than some players. Maybe its all good on the SW front. Maybe I was told lies to my face. One thing i know is i didnt make up what i said. i hope others can say the same.

Oh, spare me. I know damn well I'm expressing my opinion in this thread. It's got nuttin' to do with "facts" or "lies". However many players may have spoken to your face, you are still just relating opinion. The opinions of others (and 1 is left wondering how many), no more, no less.

I'm still struggling with just how strongly these opinions have been expressed to your "face". I would have thought it might be difficult to keep so many employed by the institution, if the situation is as dire as you revel in suggesting.

No, I'm not suggesting you're lying (just to block off that so often frequented resort). I am suggesting you interpret what is said to you (by however many) in ways that either exaggerate the reality, or suit your psyche. You're certainly not the only person to do such, but you're a pretty good example.

Well its quite simple. You are wrong with your last comment. And of course its their opinion. An opinion based on a hell of a lot more than any person here. If you dont like reading what i write then dont read it but dont tell me what i hear. Maybe i could suggest you are exaggerating what M&M tell you. There is obviously no issues with our club. Finey and caro are responsible for all the issues. fantasy land stuff.

[Cairnsman]

Its funny but what i hear is first hand

What a wank!

[plugger66]

Its funny but what i hear is first hand

What a wank!

Why is that? do you want me to lie so it suits you? the thing i dont understand is why anyone would think i would lie or exaggerate when i have said many times I want SW to coach next year and think the people who wanted him sacked are foolish.

Mow tell me why it is a wank to say i heard something first hand when I did?

[Teflon]

I'm still yet to read anything shedding light in this so called "Water-gate" affair

[Cairnsman]

Cacan't ote="plugger66"]

Its funny but what i hear is first hand

What a wank!

Why is that? do you want me to lie so it suits you? the thing i dont understand is why anyone would think i would lie or exaggerate when i have said many times I want SW to coach next year and think the people who wanted him sacked are foolish.

Mow tell me why it is a wank to say i heard something first hand when I did?[/quote]

I can't Barry Bignote. How can this be debated when you have the players backing your claims...you must be right if the players are telling you what SWs problems are...pffft!

[Scollop]

What's the senior players agenda? Why would they try and lay blame on everyone but themselves for the results of 2013? If you ask them what the main reason is that we LOST MATCHES in 2013 how many of them are going to turn around and say; "yeah despite the injuries and despite the youngsters coming in and even if you discount some of the changes to game plan, the form of the senior blokes just isn't good enough to challenge for finals right now"

I'd say ZERO...no-one will say that!!!!!!!

They are proud men and they have every right to be proud for everything achieved and for being Saints legends and champions...but fact is their playing careers are all coming close to an inevitable finish. Their role is to prepare themselves as players and perform to the best of their ability. They do not have a right to try and influence the club and the footy department more than is justified or to try and play a major part in the planning of the rebuild.

I think I can safely say that you'll never get any senior player who is 100% fit say to their coach and to team mates; "Look...uhhm...I love this club so much that I am willing to forego my match payment this week for the younger blokes to get a go...and although I am fit and healthy and basically my form has been satisfactory, I realise that I have plateaued as a player and that at age 30 (or whatever the case me be) I realise I am on the decline and my output isn't what it used to be in 2009 or 2010 (...sheesh...we can't all be Robert Harvey!!)."

I don't think any senior player would say; "Maybe for the team to improve and to catch up to the teams on the rise we have to support the coaches and footy departments development philosophy and I understand that we are probably losing games not only because of the loss of retiring players and the loss of BJ, but also BECAUSE MY FORM ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE"

How many blokes are going to say that???

I also don't think any senior player would say; "I'm committed to the team and to training and I love turning up to Seaford -even though there's no good coffee shops around and it adds an extra hour travelling time each day - and I'm still willing to turn up and go through the grind and sweat and toil of pre-season even if it means playing several games at Sandringham in 2014...I won't mind at all if it's what the senior coach wants and if it means I'll be setting a good example to the new recruits and draftees."

How many senior blokes will say that????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read between the lines. If a senior player is telling you stuff, maybe you need to think... don't just willingly open wide and let anyone feed you a biased opinion or an opinion that might just be....bulldust

[gringo]

What's the senior players agenda? Why would they try and lay blame on everyone but themselves for the results of 2013? If you ask them what the main reason is that we LOST MATCHES in 2013 how many of them are going to turn around and say; "yeah despite the injuries and despite the youngsters coming in and even if you discount some of the changes to game plan, the form of the senior blokes just isn't good enough to challenge for finals right now"

I'd say ZERO...no-one will say that!!!!!!!

They are proud men and they have every right to be proud for everything achieved and for being Saints legends and champions...but fact is their playing careers are all coming close to an inevitable finish. Their role is to prepare themselves as players and perform to the best of their ability. They do not have a right to try and influence the club and the footy department more than is justified or to try and play a major part in the planning of the rebuild.

I think I can safely say that you'll never get any senior player who is 100% fit say to their coach and to team mates; "Look...uhhm...I love this club so much that I am willing to forego my match payment this week for the younger blokes to get a go...and although I am fit and healthy and basically my form has been satisfactory, I realise that I have plateaued as a player and that at age 30 (or whatever the case me be) I realise I am on the decline and my output isn't what it used to be in 2009 or 2010 (...sheesh...we can't all be Robert Harvey!!)."

I don't think any senior player would say; "Maybe for the team to improve and to catch up to the teams on the rise we have to support the coaches and footy departments development philosophy and I understand that we are probably losing games not only because of the loss of retiring players and the loss of BJ, but also BECAUSE MY FORM ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE"

How many blokes are going to say that???

I also don't think any senior player would say; "I'm committed to the team and to training and I love turning up to Seaford -even though there's no good coffee shops around and it adds an extra hour travelling time each day - and I'm still willing to turn up and go through the grind and sweat and toil of pre-season even if it means playing several games at Sandringham in 2014...I won't mind at all if it's what the senior coach wants and if it means I'll be setting a good example to the new recruits and draftees."

How many senior blokes will say that????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read between the lines. If a senior player is telling you stuff, maybe you need to think... don't just willingly open wide and let anyone feed you a biased opinion or an opinion that might just be....bulldust

But it worked so well when we had the players get rid of Stan Alves.

[skeptic]

Halfway through 2013, I was frustrated because I saw no clear structure or game plan emerging.

I worried for SW because I had my doubts about his ability to sell a vision to the players and the fans.

Even if his vision sucked, selling it takes some heat off himself whilst we rebuild. e.g. GT's play the kids in exciting, fast moving moving footy whilst we plug the holes ourselves.

Towards the end of 2013 it dawned on me...
Our lack of structure came from the fact that we weren't rebuilding. We were still tearing down the foundations b4 the rebuild starts. SW does not have the players and types of players he wants to play his game plan. He doesn't have the key backs he wants to develop, or the in and under mids or this and that.

This season was purely experimental and transition after about rnd 5. That's why we persevered with many stupid ideas e.g. 3 small forwards, Stanley down back... it was purely can he fast track development whilst transitioning some vets out respectfully.

Players are being eased out, some are tested, some quickly written off, some persevered with...

i think essentially we're about 2002'ish now. A lowly season to come, more turnover before we see some improvement end of 2015