Thank Goodness we dodged this bullet

[SaintPav]

And won how many of these?

Sorry you said we unrevelled. 2 GF's in 2 years from a side that has made about 5 in 114 years is hardly unrevelling. Matter of fact apart from 65 and 66 it is clearly our most succesful era.

but we had a really good team and any anyone could have coached us to a flag. We are St Kilda...

[Enrico_Misso]

Yes - Thank Goodness

[gringo]

Poor bugger got caught trying to go clean at the rehab with his crack and crack pipe in his bag. Whoops. Note to self; number one rule of rehab is don't take drugs while your there.

[Moods]

I think he would have handled the pressure ok.......been there twice already, in probably two of the most pressure packed gf's in recent memory....

I think his greatest benefit would not have been his skill, but his experience and composure...which leads to sound decision making under pressure.....something we lacked whilst dominating the first half of GF 2009.

Argue all you like, but deep down we cannot seriously suggest or believe that
1. He wouldn't have made our GF teams
2. He wouldn't have made a difference

As Teflon said, there is one bloke he surely could of done more than.

Considering he did f..k all in both GF's he played in, let's not pump up his GF credentials.

I actually get offended when ppl describe drug addiction as a 'sickness' What a cop out for a bad habit. I pick my nose and eat it in public, but it's not my fault - I have a sickness. Just been caught with 4 grams of ice (a traffickable quanity in Victoria) His sickness is making him sell the stuff and make other people sick. What a strange sickness?

He's a selfish, spoilt prat who has been given everything in life, had a crack at the high life because he thought he was a rock star footballer, and has fallen flat on his face. As it turns out he can't handle the drugs like he thought he could. I'll save my sympathy for someone worthy of it. Maybe someone who actually has had a hard life and has turned to drugs for a bit of solace to escape their horrible existence. The screaming hordes of bleeding heart hero worshippers can give all the sympathy in the world to Cousins. The poor buggar. He must be sooo tortured

[groupie1]

He who casts the first stone, mate

[SaintPav]

It's all so black and white and so easy isn't it?

[Dr Spaceman]

It's all so black and white and so easy isn't it?

"Welcome aboard Pav"

[Old Mate]

It's all so black and white and so easy isn't it?

"Welcome aboard Pav"

Would you buy a used car off this man?

[jonesy]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice,I wish Jimmy Stynes was as fortunate

[SaintPav]

It's all so black and white and so easy isn't it?

"Welcome aboard Pav"

you really are mental..

[bergholt]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice...

if you believe that then you don't really understand addiction.

[matrix]

saints get ben
saints win flag
ben has a blinder
contributes greatly to the flag

6 months later the same heading comes out that came out yesterday

saints flag is now under a cloud about if he was or wasnt clean during his time with st kilda

great pr for the club and its second flag in a gazzillion years

get better ben
beat the addiction

[jonesy]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice...

if you believe that then you don't really understand addiction.

Or cop outs

Time people grew up and took responsibility for there actions instead of labelling there addictions as 'illnesses'...... Please

Geez,a lot of people struggle through life for whatever reason,most people probably do at certain stages of there life. I am one of them,at times I struggle for any meaning or purpose,but doesn't mean I go out and take drugs,or get addicted to gambling,etc,then make excuses of an illness!? It's a choice,life is full of them,and if people continually make the wrong one's,then who's fault is it,there illness?

[Moods]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice...

if you believe that then you don't really understand addiction.

What someone held him down and shoved the ICE down his throat? Ice is illegal - very illegal. What was he doing taking it in the first instance? Would we all be so sympathetic to little Benny's problems if he got in a car in the middle of a bender and mowed down some kid crossing the road?

Have any of you ppl been victim's of burglary, or had items stolen from your car? I bet you'd love to give that poor addicted soul one big giant hug when you get to court. Better yet give evidence on his behalf as you feel sorry for him/her as they have an addiction. Something like 84% of all crime is committed by people who have drug/alcohol addictions.

Fair dinkum, the brain washing that goes on from the social workers and mental health professionals is amazing. All I'm saying is ppl need to be consistent with their views on this subject. If you're going to let Cousins off the hook because he has an addiction - then they all get let off the hook. Has Cousins committed much crime? Until yesterday no. However he is one of the fortunate drug addicts who doesn't need to commit crime to furnish his habit.

Does this mean I don't feel sorry for some of the ppl who have drug addictions? Of course I do. Some ppl have had horrendous lives and have been brought up so they know no other way. Most would kill for the opportunities afforded Cousins throughout his life. The only tragedy about Cousins is that he has never been mature enough to realise how good he has got it. Cousins doesn't play the victim (unless he's trying to make an AFL comeback) or expect any sympathy. Why give him any?

[saintly]

saints get ben
saints win flag
ben has a blinder
contributes greatly to the flag

6 months later the same heading comes out that came out yesterday

saints flag is now under a cloud about if he was or wasnt clean during his time with st kilda

great pr for the club and its second flag in a gazzillion years

get better ben
beat the addiction

and i can see that happening too!!!

it would be in the papers for months weather the saints were druggies

[plugger66]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice...

if you believe that then you don't really understand addiction.

What someone held him down and shoved the ICE down his throat? Ice is illegal - very illegal. What was he doing taking it in the first instance? Would we all be so sympathetic to little Benny's problems if he got in a car in the middle of a bender and mowed down some kid crossing the road?

Have any of you ppl been victim's of burglary, or had items stolen from your car? I bet you'd love to give that poor addicted soul one big giant hug when you get to court. Better yet give evidence on his behalf as you feel sorry for him/her as they have an addiction. Something like 84% of all crime is committed by people who have drug/alcohol addictions.

Fair dinkum, the brain washing that goes on from the social workers and mental health professionals is amazing. All I'm saying is ppl need to be consistent with their views on this subject. If you're going to let Cousins off the hook because he has an addiction - then they all get let off the hook. Has Cousins committed much crime? Until yesterday no. However he is one of the fortunate drug addicts who doesn't need to commit crime to furnish his habit.

Does this mean I don't feel sorry for some of the ppl who have drug addictions? Of course I do. Some ppl have had horrendous lives and have been brought up so they know no other way. Most would kill for the opportunities afforded Cousins throughout his life. The only tragedy about Cousins is that he has never been mature enough to realise how good he has got it. Cousins doesn't play the victim (unless he's trying to make an AFL comeback) or expect any sympathy. Why give him any?

I normally agree with most things to write Mooods but a recent experience with a person addicted to drugs and just about anyone else suggests to me it is very much an illness and because of this persons personality she had little or no chance with drugs once some moron introduced her to them. Yes she could have said no in the first instance but because of her addicativeness to other things she was as low as you could get at the time and took the drugs. She is now addicted to them and we are working through it. She knows it is killing her and wrecking her family when she s straight but then she uses again and it then just goes around in circles. Even today we just went together to a Doctor to finally join a Meth program but there is just about no doubt someone will temp her again and she will start again. There is probably doubt she will even start the meth program. It is an illness that I wouldnt wish on anyone and I say to people who havent had a friend or family involved in drugs then they are just guessing and are wrong if they think it is anything but an illness.

[Thinline]

Ben Cousins had/has a choice...

if you believe that then you don't really understand addiction.

What someone held him down and shoved the ICE down his throat? Ice is illegal - very illegal. What was he doing taking it in the first instance? Would we all be so sympathetic to little Benny's problems if he got in a car in the middle of a bender and mowed down some kid crossing the road?

Have any of you ppl been victim's of burglary, or had items stolen from your car? I bet you'd love to give that poor addicted soul one big giant hug when you get to court. Better yet give evidence on his behalf as you feel sorry for him/her as they have an addiction. Something like 84% of all crime is committed by people who have drug/alcohol addictions.

Fair dinkum, the brain washing that goes on from the social workers and mental health professionals is amazing. All I'm saying is ppl need to be consistent with their views on this subject. If you're going to let Cousins off the hook because he has an addiction - then they all get let off the hook. Has Cousins committed much crime? Until yesterday no. However he is one of the fortunate drug addicts who doesn't need to commit crime to furnish his habit.

Does this mean I don't feel sorry for some of the ppl who have drug addictions? Of course I do. Some ppl have had horrendous lives and have been brought up so they know no other way. Most would kill for the opportunities afforded Cousins throughout his life. The only tragedy about Cousins is that he has never been mature enough to realise how good he has got it. Cousins doesn't play the victim (unless he's trying to make an AFL comeback) or expect any sympathy. Why give him any?

You're running the rather foolish notion that people aren't somehow entitled to make mistakes.

For some though, some mistakes have huge consequences.

And for some of those people, the ability to conjure a way through the consequences is nigh on impossible.

Christ knows I've dodged a million bullets driving too fast or boozing too hard or rooting without contraception jumping into rivers without checking water depth or whatever else. I thank my lucky f****** stars that my first sip of grog didnb't taste too good or my genes didn't say 'hello, give me more' or that when as a teenager pinching my mate's old man's smokes they didn't similarly stick the hooks in.

I find it staggering how little people self-reflect when they judge addicts who have done no wrong apart from be human. Life is full or risks and ill-thought actions.

But addictive illness is an irrational, despicable, spiteful horror show made up of an intricate tangle of chemical, physical and psychological factors.

I've watched it up close. One tale had a happy ending - a family, a life. The other saw a 24 year old die alone in a Byron Bay toilet block with a needle in his arm.

Black and white judgments that rest on the premise that some people should just know better are just ridiculous.

You might as well be taking pots at skin cancer victims for failing to slip slop slap.

The only 'choice' Cousins has BTW is to fight every minute of every day for the remainder of his life to beat the demon.

It is a huge ask. Most don't come close to overcoming it.

[Thinline]

I normally agree with most things to write Mooods but a recent experience with a person addicted to drugs and just about anyone else suggests to me it is very much an illness and because of this persons personality she had little or no chance with drugs once some moron introduced her to them. Yes she could have said no in the first instance but because of her addicativeness to other things she was as low as you could get at the time and took the drugs. She is now addicted to them and we are working through it. She knows it is killing her and wrecking her family when she s straight but then she uses again and it then just goes around in circles. Even today we just went together to a Doctor to finally join a Meth program but there is just about no doubt someone will temp her again and she will start again. There is probably doubt she will even start the meth program. It is an illness that I wouldnt wish on anyone and I say to people who havent had a friend or family involved in drugs then they are just guessing and are wrong if they think it is anything but an illness.

To watch the cycle play out is the hardest thing ever.

[Moods]

Plugger, you are right and that is a sad story. I have more to do with people who use and deal drugs than most on here I reckon. It is a complicated situation. I maintain it is an addiction (no doubt) but how do we define an illness? I agree with Dan in that illnesses are surely diseases we have no choice in. You're friend's daughter, through her unfortunate association with a creep, didn't choose to become addicted, but none the less chose to use drugs. Do you consider all fat people to have an eating illness? All anti social people to have a social illness? I just reckon the word illness is a nice way of softening what the actual problem is. It's an addiction! No-one wants to become addicted, but the dangers are always inherent.

Having said that, it is the dealers my ire is more directed at. From all reports this is the area Cousins is moving into. Can't stand it. I don't care what his reasons are, whether it be to help out a few mates who are on the gear, or to make a few dollars on the side to make ice more affordable. And it isn't cheap!

From everything I've read about Cousins' situation it ISN'T a sad one. He was simply a recreational drug user from a middle class family. I agree we all make mistakes in life, and we all need to be careful about being too judgemental about others as we are all flesh and bone and a mistake can be made by any one of us.

Two questions for you - do you consider smoking cigarettes an illness? Many are addicted, have trouble quitting, and eventually they kill you. Some people die quicker than others but basically you are inhaling poison.

When you watch the news and see that some poor innocent bloke (or girl) has been bashed, mugged, robbed, etc. and they show the drug addicted crook who is accused of the crime, do you feel sorry for the crook or the victim? Or both? I'll be honest - I feel sorry for the victim and NOT the crook. I see too many people making excuses for their plight in life. To Cousins' credit, as I said, I haven't heard him making excuses for himself. I just don't reckon we should be making excuses for him either. I reckon he chose the lifestyle he had, probably not realising it was taking him down the path it has now. Your friend's daughter took drugs for, it appears, completely different reasons. Very sad and everyone's circumstances are different. I've read nothing on Cousins to make me think we should feel sorry for him, and I'm staggered at the back slappers who continually tell him that he is/was an inspiration to them.

[Moods]

[quote="ThinlineYou're running the rather foolish notion that people aren't somehow entitled to make mistakes.

For some though, some mistakes have huge consequences.

And for some of those people, the ability to conjure a way through the consequences is nigh on impossible.

Christ knows I've dodged a million bullets driving too fast or boozing too hard or rooting without contraception jumping into rivers without checking water depth or whatever else. I thank my lucky f****** stars that my first sip of grog didnb't taste too good or my genes didn't say 'hello, give me more' or that when as a teenager pinching my mate's old man's smokes they didn't similarly stick the hooks in.

I find it staggering how little people self-reflect when they judge addicts who have done no wrong apart from be human. Life is full or risks and ill-thought actions.

But addictive illness is an irrational, despicable, spiteful horror show made up of an intricate tangle of chemical, physical and psychological factors.

I've watched it up close. One tale had a happy ending - a family, a life. The other saw a 24 year old die alone in a Byron Bay toilet block with a needle in his arm.

Black and white judgments that rest on the premise that some people should just know better are just ridiculous.

You might as well be taking pots at skin cancer victims for failing to slip slop slap.

The only 'choice' Cousins has BTW is to fight every minute of every day for the remainder of his life to beat the demon.

It is a huge ask. Most don't come close to overcoming it.[/quote]

Thinline your post is very noble and I commend your humanitarium stance. You didn't answer my question though with respect to your stance on drug addicts. Is your stance consistent across the board re drug addicts, or is it selective? I believe that many people choose to admire Cousins because he was a great footballer, and because, lets face it, he's a very good looking bloke. What I have had is vast experience dealing with victims of crime who have been the victim's of a drug addicts desperation. If your son/daughter, sister/brother was belted up and robbed by a drug addict do you feel sorry for the addict? If you do, like I said it's very noble, and you are quite possibly a broader thinker than 99% of society. Most ppl only ever think of what affects them. They see Cousins on the TV in his nice white shirt and Hollywood smile. They see him winning games of footy. They hear about his addiction and they think 'poor Ben.' The next night they are the victims of a burglary and they say, 'f***** drug f***ed loser!!' People can be very hypocritical when it comes to this sort of thing and it annoys me.

I enjoyed watching Cousins play footy. I read his book and I've watched his documentry. What has happened to him that I should feel sad or sorry for? I maintain he was a spoilt private school educated kid with the world at his feet. He chose his path. I'm not sure he was genuinely addicted until his final years at the eagles anyway. You can't claim addiction and control it Monday to Friday and unleash it on weekends. You are either addicted or you are not. He was living a lifestyle, a lifestyle that got out of control.

[Thinline]

[quote="ThinlineYou're running the rather foolish notion that people aren't somehow entitled to make mistakes.

For some though, some mistakes have huge consequences.

And for some of those people, the ability to conjure a way through the consequences is nigh on impossible.

Christ knows I've dodged a million bullets driving too fast or boozing too hard or rooting without contraception jumping into rivers without checking water depth or whatever else. I thank my lucky f****** stars that my first sip of grog didnb't taste too good or my genes didn't say 'hello, give me more' or that when as a teenager pinching my mate's old man's smokes they didn't similarly stick the hooks in.

I find it staggering how little people self-reflect when they judge addicts who have done no wrong apart from be human. Life is full or risks and ill-thought actions.

But addictive illness is an irrational, despicable, spiteful horror show made up of an intricate tangle of chemical, physical and psychological factors.

I've watched it up close. One tale had a happy ending - a family, a life. The other saw a 24 year old die alone in a Byron Bay toilet block with a needle in his arm.

Black and white judgments that rest on the premise that some people should just know better are just ridiculous.

You might as well be taking pots at skin cancer victims for failing to slip slop slap.

The only 'choice' Cousins has BTW is to fight every minute of every day for the remainder of his life to beat the demon.

It is a huge ask. Most don't come close to overcoming it.[/quote]

Thinline your post is very noble and I commend your humanitarium stance. You didn't answer my question though with respect to your stance on drug addicts. Is your stance consistent across the board re drug addicts, or is it selective? I believe that many people choose to admire Cousins because he was a great footballer, and because, lets face it, he's a very good looking bloke. What I have had is vast experience dealing with victims of crime who have been the victim's of a drug addicts desperation. If your son/daughter, sister/brother was belted up and robbed by a drug addict do you feel sorry for the addict? If you do, like I said it's very noble, and you are quite possibly a broader thinker than 99% of society. Most ppl only ever think of what affects them. They see Cousins on the TV in his nice white shirt and Hollywood smile. They see him winning games of footy. They hear about his addiction and they think 'poor Ben.' The next night they are the victims of a burglary and they say, 'f***** drug f***ed loser!!' People can be very hypocritical when it comes to this sort of thing and it annoys me.

I enjoyed watching Cousins play footy. I read his book and I've watched his documentry. What has happened to him that I should feel sad or sorry for? I maintain he was a spoilt private school educated kid with the world at his feet. He chose his path. I'm not sure he was genuinely addicted until his final years at the eagles anyway. You can't claim addiction and control it Monday to Friday and unleash it on weekends. You are either addicted or you are not. He was living a lifestyle, a lifestyle that got out of control.

If robbed by a junkie I'd be pissed as. That would be entirely human.

But the issue is much bigger than me and my hypothetically stolen TV.

The answer is no, I'm not selective.

How can you be?

If anything the Cousins scenario shows how evil the disease is. A bloke with everything is so crook that he'll ignore it all. He's not thumbing his nose. He's simply THAT f***ed.

We simply have to start understanding that disease is not always curable by a course of antibiotics.

[Moods]

[quote="ThinlineYou're running the rather foolish notion that people aren't somehow entitled to make mistakes.

For some though, some mistakes have huge consequences.

And for some of those people, the ability to conjure a way through the consequences is nigh on impossible.

Christ knows I've dodged a million bullets driving too fast or boozing too hard or rooting without contraception jumping into rivers without checking water depth or whatever else. I thank my lucky f****** stars that my first sip of grog didnb't taste too good or my genes didn't say 'hello, give me more' or that when as a teenager pinching my mate's old man's smokes they didn't similarly stick the hooks in.

I find it staggering how little people self-reflect when they judge addicts who have done no wrong apart from be human. Life is full or risks and ill-thought actions.

But addictive illness is an irrational, despicable, spiteful horror show made up of an intricate tangle of chemical, physical and psychological factors.

I've watched it up close. One tale had a happy ending - a family, a life. The other saw a 24 year old die alone in a Byron Bay toilet block with a needle in his arm.

Black and white judgments that rest on the premise that some people should just know better are just ridiculous.

You might as well be taking pots at skin cancer victims for failing to slip slop slap.

The only 'choice' Cousins has BTW is to fight every minute of every day for the remainder of his life to beat the demon.

It is a huge ask. Most don't come close to overcoming it.[/quote]

Thinline your post is very noble and I commend your humanitarium stance. You didn't answer my question though with respect to your stance on drug addicts. Is your stance consistent across the board re drug addicts, or is it selective? I believe that many people choose to admire Cousins because he was a great footballer, and because, lets face it, he's a very good looking bloke. What I have had is vast experience dealing with victims of crime who have been the victim's of a drug addicts desperation. If your son/daughter, sister/brother was belted up and robbed by a drug addict do you feel sorry for the addict? If you do, like I said it's very noble, and you are quite possibly a broader thinker than 99% of society. Most ppl only ever think of what affects them. They see Cousins on the TV in his nice white shirt and Hollywood smile. They see him winning games of footy. They hear about his addiction and they think 'poor Ben.' The next night they are the victims of a burglary and they say, 'f***** drug f***ed loser!!' People can be very hypocritical when it comes to this sort of thing and it annoys me.

I enjoyed watching Cousins play footy. I read his book and I've watched his documentry. What has happened to him that I should feel sad or sorry for? I maintain he was a spoilt private school educated kid with the world at his feet. He chose his path. I'm not sure he was genuinely addicted until his final years at the eagles anyway. You can't claim addiction and control it Monday to Friday and unleash it on weekends. You are either addicted or you are not. He was living a lifestyle, a lifestyle that got out of control.

If robbed by a junkie I'd be pissed as. That would be entirely human.

But the issue is much bigger than me and my hypothetically stolen TV.

The answer is no, I'm not selective.

How can you be?

If anything the Cousins scenario shows how evil the disease is. A bloke with everything is so crook that he'll ignore it all. He's not thumbing his nose. He's simply THAT f***ed.

We simply have to start understanding that disease is not always curable by a course of antibiotics.

Was he though? Was he addicted or was he just trying to have the best of both worlds? No doubt he is addicted now, and was those final years at the eagles. Up until that point I reckon he was just trying to have the best of both worlds, and eventually it got him. He wasn't ignoring anything, he was enjoying the riches of both worlds, and finally he got bitten and what we see today is the end result. Still sad I agree, but plenty sadder things in the world.

[bergholt]

You're friend's daughter, through her unfortunate association with a creep, didn't choose to become addicted, but none the less chose to use drugs.

i've done a shedload of drugs in my time. legal and illegal. going on twenty years since the first time i did so. i'll do it again - there's some in the freezer right now. and guess what? i'm not addicted because i don't have that thing in my head which makes me get addicted. and i'm massively thankful for that, given what i've seen.

do you really think it's a realistic position to say that no-one should ever try anything addictive? ciggies? booze? dope? other drugs? they exist, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. so all you can do is try to help out people who have problems with them.

and make no mistake, legal drugs can be easily as damaging as illegal.

[Thinline]

Was he though? Was he addicted or was he just trying to have the best of both worlds? No doubt he is addicted now, and was those final years at the eagles. Up until that point I reckon he was just trying to have the best of both worlds, and eventually it got him. He wasn't ignoring anything, he was enjoying the riches of both worlds, and finally he got bitten and what we see today is the end result. Still sad I agree, but plenty sadder things in the world.[/quote]

Moods I reckon you're trying to make an argument without accepting addiction as a disease. You're not on your own. Addiction doesn't come down to an initial choice on a day or over a period. His inability or unwillingness to take advice or accept help is more an indicator of the extent of his illness and propensity to be addicted than a choice to be a superhero footballer as well as a party boy. There's a total irrationality in play. I get where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be condescending, but there's plenty in Cousins story that is endemic among most addicts - a toxic mix of personality, physiology, psychology etc... It's a lot to get your head around and doesn't gel with what preconceptions are about being sick. That it's not easy to 'get' is probably why so few people bother (at least until or unless they are confronted with the vicious cycle of it).

[Moods]

Thinline - do you believe that smoking is an illness?