So Ben was killed again...

[Dr Spaceman]

Many of the competition's elite ruckman, you know, the ones we wish we had, were considered duds when they were Ben's age.

Yes I know that doesnt help our current situation however many people seem to be just writing the big fella off.

Chances are he'll be a gun by the time he reaches his mid 20s and we've just got to manage the ruck situation the best we can while we wait for him to mature.

But go ahead and malign an outstanding young man if it gives you pleasure

If people are commenting on him being beaten in the ruck HOW is that maligning him, should they just pretend he's a world beater....

We shouldn't HAVE to manage the best we can...the club should have had better planning, or, maybe the well paid experts at the club expected Ben to come on
quicker than he has, if it's all to do with age then there should be incremental improvement not, he gets to 25 and VOILA he's the best at his craft. I'm waiting for the game
against the Hawks to see if he goes up against that rookie McCauley who has toweled him before.. Ben is 23 years old this year, only 2 years to go....can't wait...

Well we have a problem in the ruck and that's fair enough to discuss. Ben needs to improve and will improve but we're only a few games into the pre season. Lets give him a chance.

Anyway, read through the numerous pages on this and other Big Mac threads and you'll see that some posters are really just dissing the bloke because they don't rate him.

This joker for instance

I wonder how Ben would go against Mike Pyke...He's got to be able to beat someone.....surely

[BigMart]

At least plugger I have an opinion

You just share the clubs opinion......baa

Do you realize clubs get it very wrong, in our case, often wrong, just by going on our success rate

I believe Ben is not strong enough....simple,......he get pushed of the ball with relative ease. He has great hands, is pretty skillful for a 200cm, and has a lot of positive.....best being attitude.

Geelong made the call with brad ottens.....richmond tried to use his skill and mobility as a fwd/part time ruckmen who was mobile, a bit like Kosi ....... Geelong wanted none of that, they wanted a monster ruckmen.....and he got huge....108kg at least

BTW Ben has had 5 pre-seasons now.....he has added4 kg

I stand by my thoughts.....he is not big enough

[SaintPav]

Unless you are a AFL coach I will go with what they have decided to do. Afterall they are blessed with a hell of as lot more information then we get.

the ultimate line to hide behind and prevent discussion

any thoughts on what u'd do plugger?

RL played McQualter in 3 GF for a total of 10 kicks but the coach did it so it was right

That's really impressive. You're a champ in hindsight Skeptic.

Who would you have played in 2010 GF instead of Mini? Please tell me as I would love to know.

[BigMart]

Ben Cousins or Luke Ball....oops

Perhaps Andrew Lovett....oops

Seriously
David Armitage, Tom Lynch would have been two I would have looked closely at....Geary??

[SaintPav]

Ben Cousins or Luke Ball....oops

Perhaps Andrew Lovett....oops

Seriously
David Armitage, Tom Lynch would have been two I would have looked closely at....Geary??

talking to yourself again?

I give you Geary (though wasn't he injured) but not the first two for the reasons you know.

[skeptic]

Unless you are a AFL coach I will go with what they have decided to do. Afterall they are blessed with a hell of as lot more information then we get.

the ultimate line to hide behind and prevent discussion

any thoughts on what u'd do plugger?

RL played McQualter in 3 GF for a total of 10 kicks but the coach did it so it was right

That's really impressive. You're a champ in hindsight Skeptic.

Who would you have played in 2010 GF instead of Mini? Please tell me as I would love to know.

One thing I am not is a champion of hindsight. The fact that 2 years on my opinion is still the same tells me at least I have something of a clue.

I made the call on Mini about rd 5 2010... felt it prior to the 09 GF thinking he wouldn't produce (which he didn't) - wouldn't have dropped him at the time. I would have dropped him in rd 5 and kept him out for a while and pumped games in to Steven and Armitage (maybe they wouldn't have got injured), Geary and Miles (maybe they would have made the spot their own as they couldn't do any worse) or Mini would have stepped up and claimed his spot back and played half decent footy.

My concerns RE Jones started about rd 15 2010... I reckon he's played about 5 good games since then.

The rest of time, like Adam Schneider, Ray, Gram, Peake etc he does a few good things a match and ppl swoon over him going how good was that 1 run down in 120min of football.

I watch the games and I make calls on players based on what they do and what they can do.

WHat I don't like and don't see the point of is accepting mediocrity at the expense of potential improvement.

You have two players... one of them is an average mature aged player that has played decent footy in the past, produce SFA for a longtime and doesn't seem to be getting any better despite sustained matches and game time. The other is a guy who has potential, has clear deficits to his game, is inconsistent and found wanting at times.
Me I play the second player every time. To me that's coaching 1.01. McEvoy could have had an extra 20 games under his belt at the expense of King/Gardiner

What did we gain whilst continuing to pump games into underperforming Ray, Peake, Gram, Jones... are they great players... do other teams envy their presence on our list. Lynch might have actually been good enough to play on a HBF... we chose not to play him and play mediocrity instead.
Do you feel rapt potentially having all 4 in our team come rd 1?

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

My concerns RE Jones started about rd 15 2010... I reckon he's played about 5 good games since then.

With regards to Clint Jones, I'm pretty sure there was article recently about him which said that he'd had some sort of injury in the past 12 months and that he was much fitter this year than he has been for the past year or so, so that would explain why he had a drop off last year, for instance. He still managed to have 31, 30, two 29's, 28 and 26 possession games last year though and while he butchers a lot of kicks he also gets a heap of hard balls that not many others in our side get and of course there are his shut down abilities.

[Old Mate]

Teams can and do cover for poor kickers but....You can't have too many in the team. No use having guys that win the footy if they're going to turn it over anyway.

IMO we can't have all of Ray, Peake, Polo, Gram, Gilbert and Jones in the team. That's near on 30% of our team that offer poor disposal. Presents too many turnover opportunities for the opposition.

For mine Gilbert stays because he addresses our need for KPP'S. Jones probably stays because he's one of our few inside mids and can play different roles. I'd prefer him to Polo. Peake and Gram offer run however anyone notice that Peake struggles to run in straight lines towards goal? Annoys the hell out of me. He's always going sideways. One of Gram and Peake stays. Ray is probably the best disposer of the lot however he is still average in that area. Plus he had a horrible season last year. Just about stamped his papers IMO.

I'd go with Gilbert, Gram and Jones. Dump Peake and Ray with Polo not getting a look in. Better options are skilled players such as Siposs, Ledger, Cripps, Milera and Winmar. All offer a bit of run as well.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

If Winmar was to really step up this year that would help considerably as he is a good size (albeit fairly slight), is very quick (especially for someone his height) and kicks the ball very, very well.

[BigMart]

David Armitage had been back for 6 weeks from injury, and played AFL in R22.....he warmed up with the team as an emergency..... Another contested ball mid as opposed to a negative fwd, I'll

Tom Lynch had been solid in the twos all year, as a taller and smarter fwd than eddy, may have made maxwell pay for rolling off...

Geary is just a better player

There is a reason all those three are still on afl lists and will play many, many more games and the two stk players in serious question who played are not.....they were very limited players

We may never get another opportunity, needed to make every selection count, and be bold

[Spinner]

You have two players... one of them is an average mature aged player that has played decent footy in the past, produce SFA for a longtime and doesn't seem to be getting any better despite sustained matches and game time. The other is a guy who has potential, has clear deficits to his game, is inconsistent and found wanting at times.
Me I play the second player every time. To me that's coaching 1.01. McEvoy could have had an extra 20 games under his belt at the expense of King/Gardiner

What did we gain whilst continuing to pump games into underperforming Ray, Peake, Gram, Jones... are they great players... do other teams envy their presence on our list. Lynch might have actually been good enough to play on a HBF... we chose not to play him and play mediocrity instead.
Do you feel rapt potentially having all 4 in our team come rd 1?

That's a pretty flawed coaching 101.

Playing the worse player in a point in time because they have more potential. You can't always play a team of players that will be better than others in the future... Especially if you are winning and playing grand finals.

[gringo]

You have two players... one of them is an average mature aged player that has played decent footy in the past, produce SFA for a longtime and doesn't seem to be getting any better despite sustained matches and game time. The other is a guy who has potential, has clear deficits to his game, is inconsistent and found wanting at times.
Me I play the second player every time. To me that's coaching 1.01. McEvoy could have had an extra 20 games under his belt at the expense of King/Gardiner

What did we gain whilst continuing to pump games into underperforming Ray, Peake, Gram, Jones... are they great players... do other teams envy their presence on our list. Lynch might have actually been good enough to play on a HBF... we chose not to play him and play mediocrity instead.
Do you feel rapt potentially having all 4 in our team come rd 1?

That's a pretty flawed coaching 101.

Playing the worse player in a point in time because they have more potential. You can't always play a team of players that will be better than others in the future... Especially if you are winning and playing grand finals.

there is also coaching 101 sub category 2a that says back an underperforming player in until they turn it around- gives confidence and team stability. There is no right or wrong just different principals. Ross did well while at the helm you have to give him that, did he get everything right no. But so close.

[PJ]

Stanley has 2 things Ben is devoid of - Speed and Jump. Yep he's raw but Ben had 2011 to demonstrate that either of these 2 areas is going to improve - they're not. He's a handy 2nd ruck with good hands.

[noob]

stanley has a good jump if he can use it effectively. I'd start him in the middle of the ground and let mcevoy do the rest around the ground.

[Old Mate]

The question remains can Stanley, Kosi and Mac be in the same 22? I don't think so.

[skeptic]

Right and when did Eddy, Mcqualter, Ray, Jones, Peake n Gilbert turn it around over the last 2 seasons?. Mini n Eddu never bounced back, Ray, Jones n Peake were average n Gilbert was woeful all season.

Gram was dropped n at least responded by coming back better

[skeptic]

Spinner... Nice spin. Nobody said u'd play a team of jnrs. Again u missed the point. U play them oppossed 2 players that DONT Produce anything

[Spinner]

Spinner... Nice spin. Nobody said u'd play a team of jnrs. Again u missed the point. U play them oppossed 2 players that DONT Produce anything

Thanks. You seem to enjoy referring to my username. I quite enjoy it too.

Produce nothing? How simple.

I have varying opinions of CJ for example like you mentioned, but I'm not naive and ignorant enough to say he produces nothing... In fact I would argue that all players continually selected dont/didn't produce nothing.

[SainterK]

Could it be that Jones is as unsure as everyone else is?

I mean, you've been told how to do things a certain way, for a good number of years.

Attack?

What's that CJ may ask, very defensively minded.

[bobmurray]

Spinner... Nice spin. Nobody said u'd play a team of jnrs. Again u missed the point. U play them oppossed 2 players that DONT Produce anything

Thanks. You seem to enjoy referring to my username. I quite enjoy it too.

Produce nothing? How simple.

I have varying opinions of CJ for example like you mentioned, but I'm not naive and ignorant enough to say he produces nothing... In fact I would argue that all players continually selected dont/didn't produce nothing.

I they don't produce nothing then they obviously produce something...even it's crap...on the day...

[skeptic]

Spinner... Nice spin. Nobody said u'd play a team of jnrs. Again u missed the point. U play them oppossed 2 players that DONT Produce anything

Thanks. You seem to enjoy referring to my username. I quite enjoy it too.

Produce nothing? How simple.

I have varying opinions of CJ for example like you mentioned, but I'm not naive and ignorant enough to say he produces nothing... In fact I would argue that all players continually selected dont/didn't produce nothing.

curiously, were u there on friday?

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

stanley has a good jump if he can use it effectively. I'd start him in the middle of the ground and let mcevoy do the rest around the ground.

That's what I suggested on the previous page, when I got back from the game on Friday and after just seeing the replay of Rhys v Nic Nat, in the last quarter against WC, from the week before (when Rhys clearly won 4 centre-bounce hitouts in a row against him), the idea is growing on me.
If Rhys continues to do significantly better than Mac at centre bounces, due to his incredible leap, then I think we would have to seriously consider having Rhys take the centre bounce and Mac start on the front of the centre square, so that as soon as the bounce happens Mac runs into the square and then plays the around the ground ruck role and Rhys runs forward, like Kosi did in that amazing spell of games in 2005 (when he was playing in the ruck and kicking 4-5 goals a game, by taking the centre bounce and then bolting forward, to be a F50 marking option). That way we would be playing to both their strengths. If he avoids most traffic, Rhys would take about 7 seconds to get into the F50 and he could then use his run and jump to advantage, on occasions the ball is kicked in there high. The only problem might be that whoever is playing on Mac might not go up to the square with him and may instead sit back in the hole on his own, in front of Roo and/or Kosi.

[Sobraz]

I am a fan of Ben... I think he will develop into a top rate league ruckman very soon.... Just needs to add weight and learn the tricks that the big boys develop... Only playing serious minutes will get him there...

I think that a ruck combo of Ben and Stanley has the potential to be super... They are both young, and excel in completely different areas, so they compliment each other perfectly by their contrast.. Best of both worlds...

A roaming clunker, and a high leaping gazelle..

[Legendary]

Darren Jolly didn't debut until the age of 20, didn't get more than 20 hitouts in a match until he was 22 years old and was effectively delisted by Melbourne as a 23 year old with limited upside and poor rucking ability (this was after he had played 48 AFL matches).


He then went on to play back-to-back GF's with Sydney and become the AFL's premier (with Dean Cox) ruckman from 2006-2010.


McEvoy is far ahead of where Jolly was at this stage of his career.

Last year (for instance), McEvoy averaged 22 hitouts a match. At the age of 21.


Give the guy a break. When the real stuff starts, his ability will come to the fore (as it did last year).

[Sobraz]

Darren Jolly didn't debut until the age of 20, didn't get more than 20 hitouts in a match until he was 22 years old and was effectively delisted by Melbourne as a 23 year old with limited upside and poor rucking ability (this was after he had played 48 AFL matches).


He then went on to play back-to-back GF's with Sydney and become the AFL's premier (with Dean Cox) ruckman from 2006-2010.


McEvoy is far ahead of where Jolly was at this stage of his career.

Last year (for instance), McEvoy averaged 22 hitouts a match. At the age of 21.


Give the guy a break. When the real stuff starts, his ability will come to the fore (as it did last year).

+1.. spot on.