could we win the flag without riewoldt?

[saintdooley]

If we could ninja it.

every time i hear that word i think of that facebook group "Jumping out of bed like a ninja when you realize you over slept"
i cant stop laughing at it for some reason, its so true, happens to me at least twice a week.

[Finna]

We can and will.

You heard it here first.

8 and 3 and improving up forward each outing without him.

Fuc-in' doomsdayers. You bore me.

Agree. I am liking our forward line more and more every week.

Once Roo comes back I would like to see us rotate Goddard, Roo, Joey, Dal, Kosi, Schneider, Mc Evoy all on the ball and in the forwardline throughout games.

I'd keep Stanley forward and I'd be tempted to keep milne as the deep forward. He Loves it, he's unpredictable and bloody good at it and I reckon that opposition will struggle to match up on him as a focal point.

[samoht]

Sorry I missed the resumed BJ discussion yesterday.

Here's my opinion restated..

Even if we assumed BJ was to achieve the 3 to 4 goals if played as a full time ff against the best defender (which is what your leading forwards are achieving this year)
you need to weigh this up against his current role - where he's contributing his 1 or 2 himself anyway when he pushes forward (against a midfield opponent) and he's probably indirectly contributing another 2 at least from midfield (with his long accurate passes) - so there you have 3 to 4 goals anyway.

And being mainly in the midfield he will also stop say another 3 goals and rack up his 20 - 30 quality possessions- so I reckon we're therefore 3 goals better off with BJ playing his current role.

Invariably when BJ is involved in a chain of passes, BJ is the important strong link (maybe the strongest link) in that chain which leads to something good (which might otherwise lead to nothing).. you don't want to lose him from that chain (as he adds bite to it)... by playing him as a full time forward.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

So, I know everyone gets antsy and everything... but it's round freaking 12.

When we've played twice as many games - we still won't know, because the finals will just be starting.

If you were rating every team a percentage chance right now, the Saints wouldn't be zero. In fact, they would eb higher than most teams, even without Reiwoldt.

Week by week, the offense gets better. Montagna and Goddard are taking more responsibility than ever before, and it's no more of a stretch to think there's more there to be had than it is to say that Reiwoldt returning will see the disappearance of these additions.

Are the Saints a chance without Reiwoldt? yes. Why? Because they're sitting top 4 without him prior to round freakin 12.

[saintspremiers]

Almost won it without him last season.

true, but this year I don't think we are as good as last year and Geelong are at the same level as last year.

Perhaps a fully fit and firing Rooey (plus the rest of best 22 all fit and playing), and Geelong with a few key injuries at the end of Sept and we'd be a shot at it IMO.

[Dr Spaceman]

true, but this year I don't think we are as good as last year and Geelong are at the same level as last year.

Yeah but if results were simply based on best team wins then there would be no Sportsbet.

Every game is winnable!

[samoht]

Perhaps a fully fit and firing Rooey (plus the rest of best 22 all fit and playing), and Geelong with a few key injuries at the end of Sept and we'd be a shot at it IMO.

We'd win by 10 goals in that scenario - more than a shot at it.

[bigcarl]

Sorry I missed the resumed BJ discussion yesterday.

Here's my opinion restated..

Even if we assumed BJ was to achieve the 3 to 4 goals if played as a full time ff against the best defender (which is what your leading forwards are achieving this year)
you need to weigh this up against his current role - where he's contributing his 1 or 2 himself anyway when he pushes forward (against a midfield opponent) and he's probably indirectly contributing another 2 at least from midfield (with his long accurate passes) - so there you have 3 to 4 goals anyway.

And being mainly in the midfield he will also stop say another 3 goals and rack up his 20 - 30 quality possessions- so I reckon we're therefore 3 goals better off with BJ playing his current role.

Invariably when BJ is involved in a chain of passes, BJ is the important strong link (maybe the strongest link) in that chain which leads to something good (which might otherwise lead to nothing).. you don't want to lose him from that chain (as he adds bite to it)... by playing him as a full time forward.

my question to you is why haven't we replaced a star key forward (and match-winner) with another star? there is a reason they're called key position players.

good on ballers are a lot easier to find than good key position players. there are simply more of that type around. raph could go in there. gilbert even. fisher.

again, i'm at work, and will happily resume this discussion tonight (if i ever get out of here).

[samoht]

Hi bigcarl ..

.. wouldn't it be great if we had the Goddard twins now instead of the Wakelin twins back then ?

I just want a player with Goddard's foot skills and penetration to get the ball 30 times each week... and not restrict him to a 3 goal player , which is all he'd become and what Riewoldt was anyway if you measure them in terms of goals kicked.

But we know that Goddard and Riewoldt are worth more than 3 goals a week... and you play them to their strengths.

Besides ..
Goddard kicks a goal a week anyway in his brief appearances forward .. and Ray has started to do that too.
and if Stanley can kick a couple of goals too and Kosi holds his marks we'd be right - we can't just rely on Riewoldt.

[plugger66]

Sorry I missed the resumed BJ discussion yesterday.

Here's my opinion restated..

Even if we assumed BJ was to achieve the 3 to 4 goals if played as a full time ff against the best defender (which is what your leading forwards are achieving this year)
you need to weigh this up against his current role - where he's contributing his 1 or 2 himself anyway when he pushes forward (against a midfield opponent) and he's probably indirectly contributing another 2 at least from midfield (with his long accurate passes) - so there you have 3 to 4 goals anyway.

And being mainly in the midfield he will also stop say another 3 goals and rack up his 20 - 30 quality possessions- so I reckon we're therefore 3 goals better off with BJ playing his current role.

Invariably when BJ is involved in a chain of passes, BJ is the important strong link (maybe the strongest link) in that chain which leads to something good (which might otherwise lead to nothing).. you don't want to lose him from that chain (as he adds bite to it)... by playing him as a full time forward.

my question to you is why haven't we replaced a star key forward (and match-winner) with another star? there is a reason they're called key position players.

good on ballers are a lot easier to find than good key position players. there are simply more of that type around. raph could go in there. gilbert even. fisher.

again, i'm at work, and will happily resume this discussion tonight (if i ever get out of here).

You have mentioned 3 guys who have never played in the middle and all 3 couldnt do it IMO. BJ is also mentioned as a key position player and he may have done it a grand total of 4 quarters. You want to take proven players in their positions and put them into positions not one has been proven in against the 2 top sides. it isnt going to happen especially as BJ is having his best year in the middle of the ground.

[bigcarl]

You have mentioned 3 guys who have never played in the middle and all 3 couldnt do it IMO.

as i've said to you before, they are more versatile than you think. the three i mentioned are very good footballers with a good tank. that's all you need to play in the middle.

You want to take proven players in their positions and put them into positions not one has been proven in against the 2 top sides.

that is a fair point. we should have done it against the easy beats over the past three weeks when we've played the three worst performed sides in the competition. that would have been the time to experiment a bit.

it isnt going to happen especially as BJ is having his best year in the middle of the ground.

ross has made it fairly clear he doesn't think we can afford to play BJ forward, so you have read that situation correctly. let's hope kosi can lift his goals per game average.

[plugger66]

You have mentioned 3 guys who have never played in the middle and all 3 couldnt do it IMO.

as i've said to you before, they are more versatile than you think. the three i mentioned are very good footballers with a good tank. that's all you need to play in the middle.

You want to take proven players in their positions and put them into positions not one has been proven in against the 2 top sides.

that is a fair point. we should have done it against the easy beats over the past three weeks when we've played the three worst performed sides in the competition. that would have been the time to experiment a bit.

it isnt going to happen especially as BJ is having his best year in the middle of the ground.

ross has made it fairly clear he doesn't think we can afford to play BJ forward, so you have read that situation correctly. let's hope kosi can lift his goals per game average.

The main thing you need in the middle is to be good below your knees, very quick hands and above all quick thinking. I think those 3 things rule out the players you have mentioned

[bigcarl]

I just want a player with Goddard's foot skills and penetration to get the ball 30 times each week ... and not restrict him to a 3 goal player , which is all he'd become and what Riewoldt was anyway if you measure them in terms of goals kicked.

But we know that Goddard and Riewoldt are worth more than 3 goals a week ... and you play them to their strengths.

bj going forward isn't going to happen (ross has made this fairly clear), so you've no reason to worry that it will.

the OP is about whether we could win the flag without riewoldt. It is a hypothetical.

i think we could win it, but not without a genuine goal-kicking key forward. my personal choice would be goddard.

... and yes, it would be great if we could clone him. apparently the back, mids and forward coaches make a strong case every week to get bj into their group.

wonder if this had anything to do with elshaugh's resignation?

[bigcarl]

The main thing you need in the middle is to be good below your knees, very quick hands and above all quick thinking. I think those 3 things rule out the players you have mentioned

all are good below their knees and add plenty around the ground in terms of their aerial skills.

all are also big boys who can look after themselves and give lenny a bit of a hand in the grunt department.

as it stands we could get outmuscled a bit by teams like geelong, whose midfield is statistically bigger and heavier than ours (at least it was last year).

[plugger66]

The main thing you need in the middle is to be good below your knees, very quick hands and above all quick thinking. I think those 3 things rule out the players you have mentioned

all are good below their knees and add plenty around the ground in terms of their aerial skills.

all are big boys who can look after themselves and give lenny a bit of a hand in the grunt department.

as it stands we could get outmuscled a bit by teams like geelong, whose midfield is statistically bigger and heavier than ours (at least it was last year).

Well I would rule Fisher out because he isnt good enough below his knees for a midfielder and isnt a quick thinker. Raph for his quick thinking and Gilbert for his quick thinking. None have played in the middle and there are reasons. One they are better for the club elsewhere and two they arent midfielders in the eye of the coaches. Agree with both.

[bigcarl]

Well I would rule Fisher out because he isnt good enough below his knees for a midfielder and isnt a quick thinker. Raph for his quick thinking and Gilbert for his quick thinking. None have played in the middle and there are reasons. One they are better for the club elsewhere and two they arent midfielders in the eye of the coaches. Agree with both.

raph could prove a surprise packet in the guts because there is no time to second guess yourself there. it is either take the first option or "B-A-L-L". it could be the making of him.

you under-rate both fisher and gilbert (particularly gilbert), a sensational player who can go virtually anywhere on the ground in just about any role.

also, you are a bit quick to pigeonhole players into certain roles.

some, particularly the good ones, are a lot more versatile than you think.

since it isn't going to happen, it's probably not worth discussing, but i'm happy to go on with it if you are ... when i get home from work in about an hour.

do i know more than the coaches? no, of course not.

i do know we are ninth in scoring this season (and were fourth last season) and i agree with you that we cannot win it riewoldt (or another dangerous goal-kicking key forward) such as you know who.

[bozza1980]

For what it is worth if we finish top 4 we are a show.

It woudl require a bit to go right for us and a bit to go wrong for the opposition but we could steal it without Riewoldt.

All that said, Riewoldt will be back, and I strongly believe he and Ross the Boss will be holding the premiership cup aloft on that last Saturday in September.