GT busted on Footy Classified

[rodgerfox]

The Board accepted his refusal, because it suited them perfectly.


.

Yes because it allowed them to role out the new structure.

A structure that seems to be ticking along very nicely to me. Though yes Lovett was hiccup....(though I can see why he was traded for).

As I said earlier, my source disagreed. It was about power and personalities - not a football dept. structure.

They thought GT had to much power and influence, more so than the president at the time?

Perceived power, yes.

And funnily, Butterss' public outbursts post the GT sacking were an example of him freaking out at the thought of GT getting more 'air time' and positive exposure in the media and public than himself.

It's old ground, but as I repeatedly said at the time, he was sacked for the wrong reasons.

[Milan Faletic]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this,.

http://www.chemotherapy.com.au/chemothe ... ured-knee/

Former Saint Penny Starts Chemo For Injured Knee

The Age

Wednesday February 22, 2006

LYALL JOHNSON

FORMER St Kilda full-back Luke Penny is having chemotherapy in an attempt to improve the debilitating knee problem that caused him to quit football last year.

Penny has acute rheumatoid arthritis, a chronic and very painful disease of the muscular-skeletal system characterised by inflammation of the joints and caused by the body's immune system destroying itself.

The 25-year-old is having three sessions of chemotherapy at the Cabrini Hospital in an attempt to arrest the progress of the disease.

Chemotherapy, commonly a treatment for cancer that knocks out the body's immune system and stops it destroying itself, is also an established treatment for acute rheumatoid arthritis when other treatments have proved unsatisfactory.

Penny, who played 35 games with the Western Bulldogs then 45 with St Kilda, also is believed to be angered by the way the club did not appear to believe his condition was serious enough to force him to retire.

At least one member of Penny's family is believed to be keen for the former player to consider defamation action against the club for comments made at the time of his retirement.

The family member claims to have sought advice from the AFL about what impact a non-disclosure statement would have on potential legal action.

When Penny announced his retirement in November last year, it was clear St Kilda and coach Grant Thomas were disappointed with his decision and voiced as much at a news conference at Moorabbin after Penny released a statement announcing his decision.

Thomas said at the time he was "very shocked" and "surprised" by Penny's decision to quit and added that Penny's reasons were personal and that it "wasn't a medical decision". "He just doesn't believe he's up to doing what he does best."

I feel very sorry for Luke Penny. I think we forget how good he was for us. If he didn't retire he would be 29 and probably at his peak as a key defender. He would have been a handy addition to the defence.

I hope he is going well. Does anyone know how he is going?

[saintsRrising]

It's old ground, but as I repeatedly said at the time, he was sacked for the wrong reasons.

Not just the wrong reasons...but a lot of right reasons.

Just speak with people who were at the club in that era and you will know there were good reasons to move on GT besides structure...and any grudge that RB may have had.

GT's thinking was outmoded and underskilled in too many areas and his constant personality clashes with people that he was meant to be working with were holding the club back.

[Dr Spaceman]

I continue to be amazed by these discussions on Ross Lyon, and of course Grant Thomas (and the two are indelibly connected as I doubt anyone is really knocking Ross apart from those who would have preferred to keep GT).

Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

How can you be a Saints supporter and waste your breath, during one of the most exciting times in the Club’s history, carrying on about something that happened 3½ years ago?

It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s about accepting what has happened and moving on.

If Ross does stuff up fair enough; call him for it. But don’t try to make out he’s stuffed up purely out of spite for GT getting the flick. Those of you who may try to argue that your criticism is not linked to the GT job loss are really only fooling yourself.

Believe me, as someone who has observed these arguments going on over a long period of time, but who themselves has not really bought into it, the connection is obvious.

[meher baba]

But I'll henceforth try to keep my views to myself: I think it's better that way.

Agree wholeheartedly and considering you made many derogatory, misinformed, naive comments about Ross Lyon and furthermore wanted him sacked and replaced with Bundy who you rate as a tactical genius, on a weekly basis up until mid 2008, I think perhaps that this would be a good call by you, had to happen sometime, because it's become blatantly obvious by now, you would not get a drum even with a tribal zulu war dance party up you!

I'm glad you posted this here B4E because I
was worried that there might be some posters on here who didn't know that, two years ago, I wanted Lyon replaced with Bundy.

So thanks for that.

As a further social service, you might want to help out those posters who didn't catch the result of World War 2.....

[skeptic]

Srs
i don't see how the articles and anecdote you've posted = GT being the one that mismanaged them.

Are you saying that GT told Harvey to jump off the table like that?

Are you saying that in the face of overwhelming medical evidence GT defied medical opinion and thought Luke Penny could just run it off?

All your article/anecdote prove is that our football department sucked... well we already new that.

MB, i hope you keep posting on this and many other topics that u cop flak for. The forumites you mention are masters of spin, deflection and diverting topics, not properly addressing points and I enjoy how u can them on it.
Keep up the good work

[yipper]

I continue to be amazed by these discussions on Ross Lyon, and of course Grant Thomas (and the two are indelibly connected as I doubt anyone is really knocking Ross apart from those who would have preferred to keep GT).

Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

How can you be a Saints supporter and waste your breath, during one of the most exciting times in the Club’s history, carrying on about something that happened 3½ years ago?

It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s about accepting what has happened and moving on.

If Ross does stuff up fair enough; call him for it. But don’t try to make out he’s stuffed up purely out of spite for GT getting the flick. Those of you who may try to argue that your criticism is not linked to the GT job loss are really only fooling yourself.

Believe me, as someone who has observed these arguments going on over a long period of time, but who themselves has not really bought into it, the connection is obvious.

bravo. spot on.

[saintsRrising]

Are you saying that GT told Harvey to jump off the table like that?

:

No.......I am saying that he had no faith in the then Player Medical and Conditioning Departments.

I mean what does it say when players start ignoring their supposedly profesional advice?

Ditto for Penny. Told by the Club he was ok to play..he went with his own medical advice instead.

The relevance to GT was that GT asked for from the Board responsibility for this area. He therefore has to "carry the can" for it.


Question for Skeptic: If you are "responsible for something, are you?

[Milan Faletic]

Ross Lyon said via MMM that he inherited a "fractured" player. The implication was that not only was Kosi physically injured but also lacking in trust of the St Kilda footy club.

GT was clearly flustered when questioned by the panel about whether Kosi's confidence and trust was undermined under GT's coaching.

Totally unexpected to hear this and sheds a new light on Kosi. Never heard this before.

Busted, GT.

Are you going to start a GT thread after every show? Last week you started one and got the words wrong to suit your agenda. Give it a miss for your own sanity. Busted Milan Pathetic.

Good to see that this thread has started debate. Hey Plugger66, let me know if you want me to start a thread every week that has over 80 posts. And thanks for caring about my sanity. You're a gem.

[saintsRrising]

Srs
Are you saying that in the face of overwhelming medical evidence GT defied medical opinion and thought Luke Penny could just run it off?
:

From what I know Penny medically could no longer continue to play...and the later articles would indicate that it remained so.

GT expressed his view, and quite abusingly so at the time, with a lot of vitriol directed at Penny.

So you draw the dots....

[saintsRrising]

Keep up the good work

So Skeptic...and MB...with the full benefit of hindsight what do you both believe about GT's handling of Penny's medical retirement?


Was it the great "people manager" that some claim GT to be?

[rodgerfox]

I continue to be amazed by these discussions on Ross Lyon, and of course Grant Thomas (and the two are indelibly connected as I doubt anyone is really knocking Ross apart from those who would have preferred to keep GT).

I 'knock' Ross and don't want GT in charge.

The closest I've ever come to 'preferring to keep GT' was that I believed he went 1 year too early.

Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

Very little? Or nothing at all?

If it's the former, then surely this is the place for it to be discussed.

How can you be a Saints supporter and waste your breath, during one of the most exciting times in the Club’s history, carrying on about something that happened 3½ years ago?

Russel Holmesby disagrees. So do many supporters who enjoy discussing the history of the club and significant events that shape the club.

It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s about accepting what has happened and moving on.

If Ross does stuff up fair enough; call him for it. But don’t try to make out he’s stuffed up purely out of spite for GT getting the flick. Those of you who may try to argue that your criticism is not linked to the GT job loss are really only fooling yourself.

In response to that, I'd say 'don't assume that because someone questions the head coach that it's out of spite for a former coach who left 3 years ago.'

Believe me, as someone who has observed these arguments going on over a long period of time, but who themselves has not really bought into it, the connection is obvious.

So in 3 full years, Lyon has not done one thing that deserves or warrants questioning?

And that anyone who has dared discuss, raise, or debate anything that Ross Lyon has done in those 3 years is simply doing it because that want GT back?

You've got to be kidding.

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Simply put - you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and obviously has ulterior motives.


You know what staggers me? Posts like yours that chime in to a thread that is clearly in relation to GT (hence the titling of threads) and express their contempt for posters who choose to discuss this topic.

And even worse, those that will no doubt chime in with a 'spot on' or a 'well said' after clicking on a thread that is titled 'GT busted on Footy', read 4 pages of it then decide that anyone who reads such rubbish and dares waster their time doing so is an idiot.

[saintsRrising]

Have to agree with RF (see it does happen ).

This thread was clearly labelled....and by and large all posts are just good discussion and on topic.

However Spacemens comments are relevant in some other threads which go off-topic.

There is time and a place for everthing.

[Dr Spaceman]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Simply put - you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and obviously has ulterior motives.

Which part about "It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong" didn't you understand Rog???????

And you call me ignorant!!! (By the way me comments weren't addressed to anyone in particular so no need to take things so personally!)

[Leo.J]

Get a room you lot...

[rodgerfox]

Are you saying that GT told Harvey to jump off the table like that?

:

No.......I am saying that he had no faith in the then Player Medical and Conditioning Departments.

I mean what does it say when players start ignoring their supposedly profesional advice?

His medical advice, as I was told at the time, was that the tendon would remain painful unless it snapped entirely, or healed.

Healing would take time - snapping it would result in instant relief.

So Harves being Harves, and not wanting to miss footy, decided to bust it himself.


Are you saying that the docs told him to do it? Or that they casued it in the first place? Or their diagnosis was wrong?

I'm not sure why you've raised the Harves' one as as example.

Question for Skeptic: If you are "responsible for something, are you?

Do you think SrR, that the head coach is responsible for his players' skill level?

[rodgerfox]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Simply put - you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and obviously has ulterior motives.

Which part about "It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong" didn't you understand Rog???????

And you call me ignorant!!! (By the way me comments weren't addressed to anyone in particular so no need to take things so personally!)

This part....

"Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. "

Doesn't sound like a statement that leaves any room for anyone to argue against it, does it.

You've categorically put forward an opinion as fact.

You've declared your opinion as 'right'.

[Dr Spaceman]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Simply put - you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and obviously has ulterior motives.

Which part about "It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong" didn't you understand Rog???????

And you call me ignorant!!! (By the way me comments weren't addressed to anyone in particular so no need to take things so personally!)

This part....

"Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. "

Doesn't sound like a statement that leaves any room for anyone to argue against it, does it.

You've categorically put forward an opinion as fact.

You've declared your opinion as 'right'.

Rog, if you wanna keep on with this drivel, day in day out, go right ahead. I'll leave it for your regular gang to engage you and you can discuss RL v GT til the cows come home.

I have far better things to do with my life!

[rodgerfox]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Simply put - you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and obviously has ulterior motives.

Which part about "It’s not about saying I’m right and you’re wrong" didn't you understand Rog???????

And you call me ignorant!!! (By the way me comments weren't addressed to anyone in particular so no need to take things so personally!)

This part....

"Whichever way you cut or dice it, Ross has done very little wrong. And from the way we’ve started this year, he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. "

Doesn't sound like a statement that leaves any room for anyone to argue against it, does it.

You've categorically put forward an opinion as fact.

You've declared your opinion as 'right'.

Rog, if you wanna keep on with this drivel, day in day out, go right ahead. I'll leave it for your regular gang to engage you and you can discuss RL v GT til the cows come home.

I have far better things to do with my life!

And that's the point of my reply.

If you don't like it - don't chime in. Use your time for more useful activities/threads.

[saintsRrising]

So Harves being Harves, and not wanting to miss footy, decided to bust it himself.

I'm not sure why you've raised the Harves' one as as example.

If he had been properly briefed he would not have done it in the manner he did which according to the former Club Doc I discussed it with considered it to have been quite dangerous in causing other or permanent damage.

"Harves being Harves" is cop out to not having appropriate team rules in place for following medical, conditioning and training instructions and was symptomatic as to why our player conditioning was sub-standard in that era.

Indeed that was one of the reasons why the Club Doc was no longer willing to work at the Saints.

[markp]

Please stay on topic:

Ross Lyon said via MMM that he inherited a "fractured" player. The implication was that not only was Kosi physically injured but also lacking in trust of the St Kilda footy club.

GT was clearly flustered when questioned by the panel about whether Kosi's confidence and trust was undermined under GT's coaching.

Totally unexpected to hear this and sheds a new light on Kosi. Never heard this before.

Busted, GT.

[Dr Spaceman]

[saintsRrising]

Question for Skeptic: If you are "responsible for something, are you?

Do you think SrR, that the head coach is responsible for his players' skill level?

Sorry should this not be in the 2009 GF Thread? I mean that is how you mean it isn't it?

Yes in the course of the year the Head Coach is responsible for the "team's" skill level.

This is obviously a compilation of training, development, drafting/trading etc.

If there is an aberation in one game...then it may just be an aberation.

For example missing so many easy shots on goal in the GF I would see as an aberation as our accuracy throughout the year had been ok.

However the Head Coach needs to nut out the why's and and try and ensure that there is no repeat.

[satchmo]

GT expressed his view, and quite abusingly so at the time, with a lot of vitriol directed at Penny.

Well that is not true.

Grant said that the club was surprised by the decision, because their medical advice was that Luke could overcome the problem and that they were willing to be patient because they rated him highly.

Is there a link to the "abuse" or "vitriol" that you speak of?

[saintsRrising]

GT expressed his view, and quite abusingly so at the time, with a lot of vitriol directed at Penny.

Well that is not true.

Grant said that the club was surprised by the decision, because their medical advice was that Luke could overcome the problem and that they were willing to be patient because they rated him highly.

Is there a link to the "abuse" or "vitriol" that you speak of?

GT said a lot more than that...including in interviews.

At the time he was clearly having a go at Penny's (in GT's mind) lack of fortitude and character, rather than accepting that the poor buggas knee was bad.


Unfortunately most of the links don't still work, however here is a sample of Mr Supportive People Manager Coach:

"I'd be lying if I said I wasn't very shocked by it. Luke's in our best 18. He's our full-back. He's a very important player for us," Thomas said. "So we were very surprised but as time went on, it was quite obvious that he was set in his mind about what he wanted to do." Grant Thomas


Thomas stumped by Penny's exit

St Kilda coach Grant Thomas is baffled by Luke Penny's decision yesterday to retire from the AFL at the age of 24. The full-back announced he would leave the game because of a chronic knee injury. But Thomas said the decision seemed premature, especially given he still had three years to serve on his contract. "Guys have knee reconstructions," Thomas said. "They might have 12 months out, but they do come back. We thought, irrespective of the situation, it's worth a go but he didn't see it that way and that's fine. That's his decision."
The Article Peter Krupka/TheAustralian/30Nov05



Thomas said at the time he was "very shocked" and "surprised" by Penny's decision to quit and added that Penny's reasons were personal and that it "wasn't a medical decision". "He just doesn't believe he's up to doing what he does best."


Personal? Bulldust...it was MEDICAL....and GT rather than accepting it assinated Penny's character instead.

Guys have knee reconstructions yes. But not for Penny's condition.

Chemos sucks bigtime...you don't go into it lightly.

GT's other concern was the 3 years of the long-term contract to go that GT had signed him......and Hamill too.