Ben there.....shoulda done that......

[WayneJudson42]

From what I'm hearing, the hair shave spooked the board, also that he had missed a couple of urine tests.

Someone also mentioned salary cap difficulties, now to be honest if Ricky Nixon was expecting BC to get anywhere near what he was getting, he must be dreaming.

BC should expect a moderate wage with an immediate dismissal clause plus the threat of police involvement should he drag any other players into his (previous) addiction.

However, the thing that worried me most about him was that he WAS an elite midfielder who has not kicked a ball in anger since the first weekend of September 2007.

By March next year he would have been out of the game for 18 months, 30 years old and no where near the player he was.

In the long run he may end up being no more beneficial to us than Harv's was last year, which would mean we gained nothing except a lot of publicity.

Maybe in relations to his ability to get back...most expert football pundits however, (including Harvey) havent doubted his fitness ability. Even Ross Lyon wanted that aspect of his game for others to see his work ethic (Gehrig has him as one of the hardest workers hes seen).

Aside from that Harvey was 37 - Cousins 30.....thats a fair gap.

Its all academic now - we move on.

I must say for me,.....with some concern on how St Kilda is gonna catch the Hawks/Cats midfields and stay ahead of those coming in 09.....hope Xavier Clarke stays fit.....again...

Don't underestimate the talent we have, and what some proper fitness can do.

A fit Ball, X and fitter BJ isn't a bad mix. If Armo can step up, and Stevens can also, I think we'll be right.

Oh, and don't forget Ray... as everyone seems to have done.

[markp]

The OP is spot on.... as I've said before, when you're 10 goals down in the last quarter you need to roll the dice.

I don't think a genuine 'smoking gun' would take 4 hours to consider.

They bottled it pure and simple (IMO), and took the vanilla option.

He was gonna cost very little and be on a very very short leash... I'm still yet to hear even a reasonable theory that would be a deal breaker.

The clock is ticking down and we're chipping it around in the backline.

[onlooker]

It is not the policies or making policies on the run that seems to be the main problem. Every Board sooner or later (in this case later) must make decisions for the organisation to keep functioning. It is the lack of process and structured approach to consideration of issues so to make decisions that is standing out. To get to a decision in an efficient time. The Cousins issue is a prime example.

This is garbage.

Ben was a moving target. His behaviour was changing, and his most recent activities created big concerns for the club. The club gave him every chance to get it right, to settle & show he is keen and ready to return to the game. The club, righty, left its final decision to as late as possible, and in the end things didn't stack up.

That's all there is. You are fabricating some fairy tale.

In regards to the public message, the club had little wiggle room. So it was either 'no comment', which isn't a good look, our a response full of generalities (which is what they gave). It would have been stupid & irresponsible to expose detailed confidential discussions on such a sensitive issue.

If Cousins was showing eratic behaviour as you claim he was the process the Board should have had in place would have quickly addressed this and a decision made straight away. No fairy tales; no seeing if he was going to correct his outlook/activities that were of concern, the agreed Board process would have quickly addressed the situation and if you are correct I suggest a decision on his future with the Saints would have been made some time back.
The public message issue is always a difficult one. You try and protect your legal position and the confidentiality of progress if you need to, but the absolute worst thing you can do is say nothing and IMO that issue alone was one of the main drivers in the reaction the Club got to the Cousin's decision. You say what you can say at that point but you do regularly say something about what is or not happening.
This is not a garbage approach or a fairy tale. It's just a sound and proven business approach. I am not saying that this Board is hopeless or should go; far from it. They have a difficult job in an emotionally charged area but I am hoping that they will get better with their management of the big issues over time, particularly the ones where they are in the driver's seat.

[sunsaint]

From what I'm hearing, the hair shave spooked the board, also that he had missed a couple of urine tests.

Someone also mentioned salary cap difficulties, now to be honest if Ricky Nixon was expecting BC to get anywhere near what he was getting, he must be dreaming.

BC should expect a moderate wage with an immediate dismissal clause plus the threat of police involvement should he drag any other players into his (previous) addiction.

However, the thing that worried me most about him was that he WAS an elite midfielder who has not kicked a ball in anger since the first weekend of September 2007.

By March next year he would have been out of the game for 18 months, 30 years old and no where near the player he was.

In the long run he may end up being no more beneficial to us than Harv's was last year, which would mean we gained nothing except a lot of publicity.

Maybe in relations to his ability to get back...most expert football pundits however, (including Harvey) havent doubted his fitness ability. Even Ross Lyon wanted that aspect of his game for others to see his work ethic (Gehrig has him as one of the hardest workers hes seen).

Aside from that Harvey was 37 - Cousins 30.....thats a fair gap.

Its all academic now - we move on.

I must say for me,.....with some concern on how St Kilda is gonna catch the Hawks/Cats midfields and stay ahead of those coming in 09.....hope Xavier Clarke stays fit.....again...

Don't underestimate the talent we have, and what some proper fitness can do.

A fit Ball, X and fitter BJ isn't a bad mix. If Armo can step up, and Stevens can also, I think we'll be right.

Oh, and don't forget Ray... as everyone seems to have done.

3rd Gen
The shave done has been discounted as a reason. Publicy 100% discounted. And I agree on the point that our team in '08 was a way off the hawks/geelong midfield. I dont have a problem with Ray, but I see him as a replacement for Fiora not much more than that. Next year the team is minus Harvey, Fiora, and Birss. And that is what is troubling most pro-cousins people in '09. Where will the improvement to the next level come from, a "fit" X, a kid that hasnt played, or a team juggle? Because now, that is all we have. Next year I believe that carlscums mids will surpass us.

[Moccha]

Geez it would be nice to win the flag next yr. Who knows????????????

[Dan Warna]

clubs with more money, more resources and frankly more desperation than us, passed BC over.

its about the worst kept secret that he was an addict for years.

as for the 'half time hit' that can neither be proved right or wrong, however the symptoms for meth withdrawal are fairly consistent with his behaviour, also the subsequent effect of a hit are fairly consistent with that behaviour.

16 clubs pretty much know that BC is looking for a fair-well cheque

St Kilda made a decision based on the pro's and con's of employing a junkie as an on field player, and they decided against BC, so did 15 other clubs.

We don't owe ben cousin's anything, st kilda is about st kilda, not the Ben Cousins redemption society.

[onlooker]

clubs with more money, more resources and frankly more desperation than us, passed BC over.

its about the worst kept secret that he was an addict for years.

as for the 'half time hit' that can neither be proved right or wrong, however the symptoms for meth withdrawal are fairly consistent with his behaviour, also the subsequent effect of a hit are fairly consistent with that behaviour.

16 clubs pretty much know that BC is looking for a fair-well cheque

St Kilda made a decision based on the pro's and con's of employing a junkie as an on field player, and they decided against BC, so did 15 other clubs.

We don't owe ben cousin's anything, st kilda is about st kilda, not the Ben Cousins redemption society.

Well this level of his problem is all news to me. I am not being smart I just didn't know. If all this was common knowledge I am hard pressed to work out why we contemplated it in the first place.

[tweedaletomanning]

clubs with more money, more resources and frankly more desperation than us, passed BC over.

its about the worst kept secret that he was an addict for years.

as for the 'half time hit' that can neither be proved right or wrong, however the symptoms for meth withdrawal are fairly consistent with his behaviour, also the subsequent effect of a hit are fairly consistent with that behaviour.

16 clubs pretty much know that BC is looking for a fair-well cheque

St Kilda made a decision based on the pro's and con's of employing a junkie as an on field player, and they decided against BC, so did 15 other clubs.

We don't owe ben cousin's anything, st kilda is about st kilda, not the Ben Cousins redemption society.

Well this level of his problem is all news to me. I am not being smart I just didn't know. If all this was common knowledge I am hard pressed to work out why we contemplated it in the first place.

EXACTLY...WHY would the AFL have granted him a licence??

[WayneJudson42]

RL is head coach and would be fully aware of the footy benefits of having BC, so if he was against it, I bet my house that he'd have a good reason.

BAAAA BAAAAA

MAte, if I'm a sheep, then you must be the proverbial New Zealand shearer.

In a scene edited from Baz Lurhman's epic: Australia...

Jackman walks behind the shearing shed and catches Rodgerfox alone with a sheep.

Jackman: Rodge, mate... what hell ya doing here? Are you gunna shear that bloody sheep or what?

Rodgerfox (with Kiwi accent): Mate, I'm not shearing this sheep with anyone. Go get your own. Move on.

Baz: Cut! WTF is going on Rodger? We're trying to win an Academy Award, son.

Rodgerfox: We have the talent to win the award, but we're being poorly directed IMO. We've gone backwards since you sacked GT.

Jackman: Come on Rodge, we need you.

Rodgerfox: What is your obsession with me? Please dont' make this scene about me...

With that, Lurhman and Jackman leave Rodger to his own devices.

Lurhman: Hey, Hugh. What's got six legs and makes a u turn?

Jackman: Rodgerfox?

Lurhman: Oh, you've heard that one before?

Jackman: Nah... WJ42 told me.

BAAAA BAAAAAAAA

[Teflon]

3rd Gen
The shave done has been discounted as a reason. Publicy 100% discounted. And I agree on the point that our team in '08 was a way off the hawks/geelong midfield. I dont have a problem with Ray, but I see him as a replacement for Fiora not much more than that. Next year the team is minus Harvey, Fiora, and Birss. And that is what is troubling most pro-cousins people in '09. Where will the improvement to the next level come from, a "fit" X, a kid that hasnt played, or a team juggle? Because now, that is all we have. Next year I believe that carlscums mids will surpass us.

Thats pretty much how I see it.

Facts are you simply have to go up a cog each year. There will be a team with a marked improvement and I honestly dont expect Hawks/Cats to go plummeting - they are the benchmark.

I dont believe that Ball, Dal, Montagna, Hayes are gonna morph into the levels of Kerr, Cousins, Judd in their prime and Im always nervous about Xavier Calrke staying on the paddock. Point being I reckon most of these are in their prime - Im not expecting 50% improvements now.

Ray is a model up on Fiora and that aint gonna bridge the gap.

Guys like Goddard have room, Armitage certainly but again to me guys like Eddy/Geary are solid nothing more and C Jones (who I like) along with Mqualter are battlers.

We simply dont have the luxury of time aka Carlton/Richmond and speaking from a footy perspective (as Harvs said) Cousins was the perfect fit to add IMMEDIATE improvement to the midfield.

If the club got some late mail he was on the gear for sure I can accept that and simply say "what a twit" but to deliberate for 4 hrs tells me there wasnt a smoking gun....we simply baulked.

Yes he shaved down - it looks sus for sure, its dumb but get a hair test somehow or give till PSD to see if we can at least....
Yes he went to a gangstar mates funeral - he also informed us......he didnt try and hide it.

I know its all done and dusted, move on, blah blah.....Im just sick to death of losing Prelims with a sinking feeling in my guts that we've missed our boat and possibly best chance for decades while Hawks, Blues, Tigers etc go from strength to strength.

Our teams best are in their football prime RIGHT NOW they aint at Bryce Gibbs stages....I may be delusional but I truly felt we were only missing a few pieces of the puzzle to being a genuine challenger in 08...Cosuins at 80% of his best would have taken care of 1 of those pieces IMMEDIATELY.......I now pray that Heyne, Begley, Allen, Stevens, Armitage can make a rapid transition before we see the likes of Hayes/Hudgton departing.

[tweedaletomanning]

3rd Gen
The shave done has been discounted as a reason. Publicy 100% discounted. And I agree on the point that our team in '08 was a way off the hawks/geelong midfield. I dont have a problem with Ray, but I see him as a replacement for Fiora not much more than that. Next year the team is minus Harvey, Fiora, and Birss. And that is what is troubling most pro-cousins people in '09. Where will the improvement to the next level come from, a "fit" X, a kid that hasnt played, or a team juggle? Because now, that is all we have. Next year I believe that carlscums mids will surpass us.

Thats pretty much how I see it.

Facts are you simply have to go up a cog each year. There will be a team with a marked improvement and I honestly dont expect Hawks/Cats to go plummeting - they are the benchmark.

I dont believe that Ball, Dal, Montagna, Hayes are gonna morph into the levels of Kerr, Cousins, Judd in their prime and Im always nervous about Xavier Calrke staying on the paddock. Point being I reckon most of these are in their prime - Im not expecting 50% improvements now.

Ray is a model up on Fiora and that aint gonna bridge the gap.

Guys like Goddard have room, Armitage certainly but again to me guys like Eddy/Geary are solid nothing more and C Jones (who I like) along with Mqualter are battlers.

We simply dont have the luxury of time aka Carlton/Richmond and speaking from a footy perspective (as Harvs said) Cousins was the perfect fit to add IMMEDIATE improvement to the midfield.

If the club got some late mail he was on the gear for sure I can accept that and simply say "what a twit" but to deliberate for 4 hrs tells me there wasnt a smoking gun....we simply baulked.

Yes he shaved down - it looks sus for sure, its dumb but get a hair test somehow or give till PSD to see if we can at least....
Yes he went to a gangstar mates funeral - he also informed us......he didnt try and hide it.

I know its all done and dusted, move on, blah blah.....Im just sick to death of losing Prelims with a sinking feeling in my guts that we've missed our boat and possibly best chance for decades while Hawks, Blues, Tigers etc go from strength to strength.

Our teams best are in their football prime RIGHT NOW they aint at Bryce Gibbs stages....I may be delusional but I truly felt we were only missing a few pieces of the puzzle to being a genuine challenger in 08...Cosuins at 80% of his best would have taken care of 1 of those pieces IMMEDIATELY.......I now pray that Heyne, Begley, Allen, Stevens, Armitage can make a rapid transition before we see the likes of Hayes/Hudgton departing.

Exactly, spot on, Teflon.

Why is our list so OVERRATED.

Also Rooey is 26, and I don't think his body will be holding up too much longer the way he plays.

But some on here think the 2009 flag is already in the bag.

[JeffDunne]

But some on here think the 2009 flag is already in the bag.

Link?

Put up or STFU with this "I'm a better supporter" routine.

It's really quite pathetic.

[loris]

16 clubs pretty much know that BC is looking for a fair-well cheque

St Kilda made a decision based on the pro's and con's of employing a junkie as an on field player, and they decided against BC, so did 15 other clubs.

We don't owe ben cousin's anything, st kilda is about st kilda, not the Ben Cousins redemption society.

Spot on Dan your last sentence sum's it all up for me.

[WayneJudson42]

Was the meeting just about BC? Or were there other issues to discuss?

If it was about BC, then 4 hours tells me that somewhere along the line, there were some serious misgivings about getting him, for whatever reason.

My heart says that BC would make a huge difference, but my head says maybe not.

I'm as critical as the next bloke when it comes to player assessment, and I don't think our team is overrated.

We are now entering RL's 3rd year as coach, and the list has been turned over quite significantly... almost to the point that you CANNOT make comparisons with 04 and 05. So let's see what happens.

[rodgerfox]

clubs with more money, more resources and frankly more desperation than us, passed BC over.

its about the worst kept secret that he was an addict for years.

as for the 'half time hit' that can neither be proved right or wrong, however the symptoms for meth withdrawal are fairly consistent with his behaviour, also the subsequent effect of a hit are fairly consistent with that behaviour.

16 clubs pretty much know that BC is looking for a fair-well cheque

St Kilda made a decision based on the pro's and con's of employing a junkie as an on field player, and they decided against BC, so did 15 other clubs.

We don't owe ben cousin's anything, st kilda is about st kilda, not the Ben Cousins redemption society.

Why did it take us 5 months to work that out?

[SENsei]

Someone said that the 'shave down' had been 100% refuted publically. I have missed that. Could someone advise if this has been the case?

Personally, this was the straw breaking the camel's back. We took 5 months of investigation purely to give BC 5 months to show he could walk the walk and not just talk Ricky's talk.

In the end, he couldn't.

If BC wants a farewell cheque, he should sue his manager for negligence as I think Ricky Nixon has botched this up totally.

[kaos theory]

Why did it take us 5 months to work that out?

Becuase we saw so much potential upside for our team by taking him, we were prepared to give him as long as possible to get himself right & show that he really has turned a corner.

We rightly waited to the last days before making a final assessment of all the information and then making the final decision on Ben.

[rodgerfox]

It seems more and more apparent to me, that the mail from BigFooty in the days leading up to our decision was correct - our sponsors stepped in.


It's the only logical explanation for after a 5 month investigation, to deliberate for 4 hours and then come out with a glowing statement about Cousins, his prospects at another club - but decide suddenly to not recruit him.

[saint66au]

Thats what I love about Big Footy..it can be absolute Gospel or absolute bollocks...depending on whether it backs your agenda up or not

[SENsei]

It seems more and more apparent to me, that the mail from BigFooty in the days leading up to our decision was correct - our sponsors stepped in.


It's the only logical explanation for after a 5 month investigation, to deliberate for 4 hours and then come out with a glowing statement about Cousins, his prospects at another club - but decide suddenly to not recruit him.

You need to read between the lines a bit better Rodger.

There was a late change in thinking due to a late change in circumstances.

[kaos theory]

It seems more and more apparent to me, that the mail from BigFooty in the days leading up to our decision was correct - our sponsors stepped in.


It's the only logical explanation for after a 5 month investigation, to deliberate for 4 hours and then come out with a glowing statement about Cousins, his prospects at another club - but decide suddenly to not recruit him.

Really?

So the sponsors also stepped in for the 15 other clubs where he could have also been of value on the field.

Bigfooty knows s***. That is a guess.

There may be truth in it, but not becuase of what bigfooty says. Point is footy is complex business these days. The objective is dead simple (win a flag), but the process you go through to get it is faced with many complexities, uncertainties, and many stakeholders.

As a board/management, you have to do you best to navigate your way through that.

I don't see any major issue with the process, in fact it was better they left their final decision as late as possible. And if major sponsors kick up a stink, then we have to take into account what they feel. There are a lot of dollars at stake, and that money isn't easily replaceble.

Well said. The way soem people are carrying on, you would think Benny had been snapped up as a 2nd round pick by someone as a slap in the face to St Kilda, who turned him down

What makes the other 15 clubs right and St Kilda wrong ffs? Bloody hell, if the biggest crime we committed was spending a few months more sussing him out than most other clubs, I'm very very OK with that

[rodgerfox]

Thats what I love about Big Footy..it can be absolute Gospel or absolute bollocks...depending on whether it backs your agenda up or not

The term 'agenda' when used on a footy fourm, is very silly.

I understand BigFooty, and I understand that 90% of the stuff posted on there is nearly as moronic as what is posted on here.

I can tell you that I get some info at times, and have posted it on BigFooty. It's fact. And what could be considered as 'inside info'.

Not everything posted on there is gargabe.

Anyway, it's been written about in the papers by 'knowledgable' journos aswell that Jeld-Wen had a big say about it.

Here's what has trickled out about it from BigFooty, Caroline Wilson, Brian Waldron and many other avenues.....

We were going to get him. We wanted him.

'Something' changed at the last minute.

That 'something' happened at the precise moment it was reported that Jeld-Wen cracked the shiits.

It took the Board 4 hours to make a decision. None of the Board are experts in substance dependancy, and to my knowledge no one from the Footy Dept. was there.

The Board then release a statement saying he doesn't fit our list management strategy. And that they had 'good' info.

If the info was good, why 4 hours? And how unbelievalbly irresponsible to get given good info from experts in relation to drugs, then decide to make the call yourselves. When you have absolutely no qualifications to do so.

The report surely would have said at some point - 'In my expert opinion, don't recruit him' etc. etc.

If you get a 5 month investigation, it would surely have a recommendation. Why spend 5 months getting that info from experts, if you're going to make the call yourself when you have no clue about the topic?

Now if that is what happened, this Board needs to go immediately. That would be the height of arrogance and naivity.

But I don't think they are that stupid.


The statement says that Cousins would be good for another club and that he's a hero etc. etc.

It simply does not add up. Not even close.


Either our Board is incredibly stupid and arrogant, wasting time and money only to believe they know better than the experts and make the call themselves - or their hand was forced.

The 'something' that happened, that Waldron eluded to, was the sponsors in my opinion.

It's the only explanation that with my rose coloured glasses on, would keep my faith in our club.

Anything else would have me completely and utterly disillusioned with those running the joint.

[SENsei]

The 'something' that happened was two fold.

Why has Ricky Nixon been pretty quiet about St Kilda's reasons? He commented on Brisbane, but not St Kilda.

One 'something' is BC related.

The other 'something' is not sponsor related but a body of people whom St Kilda have had issues with in the past. The AFL.

IMO the AFL have been publically saying all the right things whilst privately working against it.

The Cousins camp believe this too.

[markp]

If it was about BC, then 4 hours tells me that somewhere along the line, there were some serious misgivings about getting him, for whatever reason.

Ya think?

I'm still waiting for even a plausible scenario (other than sponsor pressure and shaky nerves) that would have been an 11th hour deal breaker when added to what we already knew.... Drug taking? Dodgy mates? Body?


As for the '15 other clubs...' argument, surely it's not unreasonable to suggest that only a few clubs were in a position to genuinely benefit from what was potentially left of BC's football career, and one of them had just eaten a major shyte sandwich over the Didak fiasco, while another has a virgin coach in a fragile and emerging AFL market.

[saint66au]

Not doubting that BF doesnt have its moments Rodg, I just find it amusing that some people treat it a bit like Caro ie wise sage if its in the Saints best interests, ugly hag if they dare go against us.

More specifically on Ben though, how can the board be at fault coming to the same conclusion that EVERY board in the comp came to..albeit somewhat later than most? The biggest crime they can really be found guilty of is deciding not to take a risk, which imho is being shown as the right thing to do.