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Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:54pm
I admire the heart and passion Geary plays with, but to suggest he is a better footballer than Murphy or Walker is laughable.
I think the Maxwell comparison as a player is quite a good one, both tough heart and sole leaders but not skilled or A grade footballers.
Maxwell wasn’t a star, but he was a premiership captain and All Australian. Geary claim to fame is a few top 5 finishes in injury depleted and bottom 8 teams.
If he is in fact one of the first picked, that just indicates the weakness of our list and is very worrying. He would struggle to get into most other teams best 22.
Now I’m not saying he’s not a good bloke, or doesn’t try hard, or doesn’t love the club, or doesn’t have good leadership skills. But his football skills are ordinary, you could pull Roo off the couch right now and he would contribute more than Geary, and that’s a worry.
More nonsense. Geary hasnt finished outside our top 6 in the last 7 years including a 2nd, 3rd and fifth in the last 3 . Have a look at the other top ten finishers in 2012, a year we finished 9th. I dont care that you love Nick Maxwell or whether you think he would get a game in some other team, Or where StKilda finishes on the ladder - Its relevant for the purposes of picking a leader . The discussion was around whether he should be captain and whether or not he is best 22 at STKILDA. How he compares to anyone else in another team has nothing to do with the discussion.
Earlier you said he was no good because he didnt get enough brownlow votes or supercoach fantasy points - that says enough about how you formulate opinions.
BTW, Dylan Grimes made the 2018 AA squad, got Zero Brownlow votes and averaged 61 fantasy points (Geary averaged 79). Rance was 2018 AA fullback with Zero brownlow votes and only averaged 3 more fantasy points than Geary. Grimes has never voted in a Brownlow (Gears has 2).
Brownlow or fantasy points have no place in assessing defenders, its a midfielders award, decided by umpires who are focussed on umpiring.
The question is : Is he in Stkildas best 22? - Clearly over 7 years he is
Do the players and coached rate him as a leader? - Clearly they voted for him.
Out of curiosity, who did you wish had got the job as Captain?
Slow down there champ, I said I don’t think he’s good enough from watching him play. You tried to justify his worth with B&F placings so I responded with Brownlow and SuperCoach stats. I didn’t bring that stuff up.
And I’m not talking about how good he was in 2012, I’m talking about now. If he produces the same output as last year then I think we’re in trouble.
And again, I’m not questioning his leadership, I’m questioning his football ability. I believe a captain should be able to lead from the front and grab the game by the scruff of the neck.
Who would I choose? Probably Seb. I would have liked to see more from Steele or Steven, but it seems the latter isn’t interested in being a leader. Dan H if he has a good year, or even Robbo, but he’s obviously just coming back from injury. And in the future, maybe Acres, I still think he’ll be our best player in the not too distant future.
You say YOU dont think he is good enough from watching him play . I reckon his B&F results over his career means you dont know what you are looking at. I am not TRYING to justify his worth, He has justified his own worth by his performances.
I have tried to explain to you why fantasy points and brownlow votes are not reliable indicators for defenders.
You say you are not talking about how good he was back in 2012, nor am I. I told you he finished 5th LAST YEAR, 3rd before that then second. The relevance of 2012 was to highlight that he has consistently performed over a long period and back when we had some seriously good players on the list.
I am just struggling that the basis for your opinion is from YOU watching him play and you think that YOUR assessment is better than the coaching staff over the last seven years, even though you would be unaware of the role or instructions he has been asked to carry out. Is that what you are saying?
I agree with you that Seb would be a great choice also, thats why he is Vice captain and probably will be captain in 2020. If he was nominated captain i reckon it would be well earnt, Robbo a good choice also, but I would like to see him back and playing.
I think what happens sometimes is that players like Geary fly under the radar and its not until the end of their careers that we appreciate the good that they do.
I was a bit like you with Jason Blake, he wasnt great at anything - he played back, forward, ruck , wing and was average at all of them. but towards the end of his career I realised it was his versatility and attitude to do what the team needed him to do that made him valuable.
I reckon you should rethink your position on Geary
Yep, I watch him play and I don’t think he’s very good. Just like Brown, defenders who can’t hurt the opposition at all with their disposal are liabilities in today’s football.
And sorry but I don’t hold the recent coaching staff or their decisions in high regard at all. Where have they taken us in 5 years? Where were we meant to be in their grand plans by now, winning a premiership!? How many of them have been sacked? I think it’s clear they were no where near as competent as they thought they were.
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, and we’ll all see what this season brings.
I think its true that our coaching staff over the last 5 years, based on results and as a collective, arent as good as their counterparts at other clubs. But I also think they are better credentialled than you and me, particularly when assessing the performance of an AFL player and particularly when they also take into account how a player carries out team instructions. So if you want to keep insisting that you are a better judge of AFL Talent than blokes that have played hundreds of AFL games, then you are right that we will have to agree to disagree. (Apologies if your real name is Al Clarkson though)
Coaches are not infallible, and I’m happy to go against them if I disagree.
I still maintain Maxy should have played in the 09 GF, Ball should have been on the ground in the last quarter, and the Marsh brothers played twice too many tests than they should have.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:54pm
I admire the heart and passion Geary plays with, but to suggest he is a better footballer than Murphy or Walker is laughable.
I think the Maxwell comparison as a player is quite a good one, both tough heart and sole leaders but not skilled or A grade footballers.
Maxwell wasn’t a star, but he was a premiership captain and All Australian. Geary claim to fame is a few top 5 finishes in injury depleted and bottom 8 teams.
If he is in fact one of the first picked, that just indicates the weakness of our list and is very worrying. He would struggle to get into most other teams best 22.
Now I’m not saying he’s not a good bloke, or doesn’t try hard, or doesn’t love the club, or doesn’t have good leadership skills. But his football skills are ordinary, you could pull Roo off the couch right now and he would contribute more than Geary, and that’s a worry.
More nonsense. Geary hasnt finished outside our top 6 in the last 7 years including a 2nd, 3rd and fifth in the last 3 . Have a look at the other top ten finishers in 2012, a year we finished 9th. I dont care that you love Nick Maxwell or whether you think he would get a game in some other team, Or where StKilda finishes on the ladder - Its relevant for the purposes of picking a leader . The discussion was around whether he should be captain and whether or not he is best 22 at STKILDA. How he compares to anyone else in another team has nothing to do with the discussion.
Earlier you said he was no good because he didnt get enough brownlow votes or supercoach fantasy points - that says enough about how you formulate opinions.
BTW, Dylan Grimes made the 2018 AA squad, got Zero Brownlow votes and averaged 61 fantasy points (Geary averaged 79). Rance was 2018 AA fullback with Zero brownlow votes and only averaged 3 more fantasy points than Geary. Grimes has never voted in a Brownlow (Gears has 2).
Brownlow or fantasy points have no place in assessing defenders, its a midfielders award, decided by umpires who are focussed on umpiring.
The question is : Is he in Stkildas best 22? - Clearly over 7 years he is
Do the players and coached rate him as a leader? - Clearly they voted for him.
Out of curiosity, who did you wish had got the job as Captain?
Slow down there champ, I said I don’t think he’s good enough from watching him play. You tried to justify his worth with B&F placings so I responded with Brownlow and SuperCoach stats. I didn’t bring that stuff up.
And I’m not talking about how good he was in 2012, I’m talking about now. If he produces the same output as last year then I think we’re in trouble.
And again, I’m not questioning his leadership, I’m questioning his football ability. I believe a captain should be able to lead from the front and grab the game by the scruff of the neck.
Who would I choose? Probably Seb. I would have liked to see more from Steele or Steven, but it seems the latter isn’t interested in being a leader. Dan H if he has a good year, or even Robbo, but he’s obviously just coming back from injury. And in the future, maybe Acres, I still think he’ll be our best player in the not too distant future.
You say YOU dont think he is good enough from watching him play . I reckon his B&F results over his career means you dont know what you are looking at. I am not TRYING to justify his worth, He has justified his own worth by his performances.
I have tried to explain to you why fantasy points and brownlow votes are not reliable indicators for defenders.
You say you are not talking about how good he was back in 2012, nor am I. I told you he finished 5th LAST YEAR, 3rd before that then second. The relevance of 2012 was to highlight that he has consistently performed over a long period and back when we had some seriously good players on the list.
I am just struggling that the basis for your opinion is from YOU watching him play and you think that YOUR assessment is better than the coaching staff over the last seven years, even though you would be unaware of the role or instructions he has been asked to carry out. Is that what you are saying?
I agree with you that Seb would be a great choice also, thats why he is Vice captain and probably will be captain in 2020. If he was nominated captain i reckon it would be well earnt, Robbo a good choice also, but I would like to see him back and playing.
I think what happens sometimes is that players like Geary fly under the radar and its not until the end of their careers that we appreciate the good that they do.
I was a bit like you with Jason Blake, he wasnt great at anything - he played back, forward, ruck , wing and was average at all of them. but towards the end of his career I realised it was his versatility and attitude to do what the team needed him to do that made him valuable.
I reckon you should rethink your position on Geary
Yep, I watch him play and I don’t think he’s very good. Just like Brown, defenders who can’t hurt the opposition at all with their disposal are liabilities in today’s football.
And sorry but I don’t hold the recent coaching staff or their decisions in high regard at all. Where have they taken us in 5 years? Where were we meant to be in their grand plans by now, winning a premiership!? How many of them have been sacked? I think it’s clear they were no where near as competent as they thought they were.
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, and we’ll all see what this season brings.
Crossy66 disagreed with me in another thread about Geary playing as a midfield tagger and being able to get his own ball.
What does that tell you...
Geary is a good leader and stopper but doesn’t have the skill set full stop.
Votes from players, B&F finishes and SuperCoach stats etc are irrelevant.
If I disagreed with you in another post i guess that tells you I disagreed with you... or have i missed something?
You say Geary is a good leader and a good stopper, so I take that to mean you think he would be a good captain and lockdown defender ? but not midfielder?
You think that the opinion of his teams mates, his coaches i.e. the inner sanctum is irrelevant....I would probably disagree with that. For most players, its the opinions that matter most i.e. respect from your peers and those you lead. People OUtSIDE the bubble, like negative fans are the irrelevant ones.
Supercoach and Brownlow votes for sure - completely irrelevant for a defender.
It appears so..
It's not negative to think that Geary can’t play as an effective midfielder who can tag as well as hurt the opposition. It’s just being realistic and win/loss is the only relevant issue.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
Joffa Burns wrote: ↑Fri 15 Feb 2019 9:54pm
I admire the heart and passion Geary plays with, but to suggest he is a better footballer than Murphy or Walker is laughable.
I think the Maxwell comparison as a player is quite a good one, both tough heart and sole leaders but not skilled or A grade footballers.
Maxwell wasn’t a star, but he was a premiership captain and All Australian. Geary claim to fame is a few top 5 finishes in injury depleted and bottom 8 teams.
If he is in fact one of the first picked, that just indicates the weakness of our list and is very worrying. He would struggle to get into most other teams best 22.
Now I’m not saying he’s not a good bloke, or doesn’t try hard, or doesn’t love the club, or doesn’t have good leadership skills. But his football skills are ordinary, you could pull Roo off the couch right now and he would contribute more than Geary, and that’s a worry.
More nonsense. Geary hasnt finished outside our top 6 in the last 7 years including a 2nd, 3rd and fifth in the last 3 . Have a look at the other top ten finishers in 2012, a year we finished 9th. I dont care that you love Nick Maxwell or whether you think he would get a game in some other team, Or where StKilda finishes on the ladder - Its relevant for the purposes of picking a leader . The discussion was around whether he should be captain and whether or not he is best 22 at STKILDA. How he compares to anyone else in another team has nothing to do with the discussion.
Earlier you said he was no good because he didnt get enough brownlow votes or supercoach fantasy points - that says enough about how you formulate opinions.
BTW, Dylan Grimes made the 2018 AA squad, got Zero Brownlow votes and averaged 61 fantasy points (Geary averaged 79). Rance was 2018 AA fullback with Zero brownlow votes and only averaged 3 more fantasy points than Geary. Grimes has never voted in a Brownlow (Gears has 2).
Brownlow or fantasy points have no place in assessing defenders, its a midfielders award, decided by umpires who are focussed on umpiring.
The question is : Is he in Stkildas best 22? - Clearly over 7 years he is
Do the players and coached rate him as a leader? - Clearly they voted for him.
Out of curiosity, who did you wish had got the job as Captain?
Slow down there champ, I said I don’t think he’s good enough from watching him play. You tried to justify his worth with B&F placings so I responded with Brownlow and SuperCoach stats. I didn’t bring that stuff up.
And I’m not talking about how good he was in 2012, I’m talking about now. If he produces the same output as last year then I think we’re in trouble.
And again, I’m not questioning his leadership, I’m questioning his football ability. I believe a captain should be able to lead from the front and grab the game by the scruff of the neck.
Who would I choose? Probably Seb. I would have liked to see more from Steele or Steven, but it seems the latter isn’t interested in being a leader. Dan H if he has a good year, or even Robbo, but he’s obviously just coming back from injury. And in the future, maybe Acres, I still think he’ll be our best player in the not too distant future.
You say YOU dont think he is good enough from watching him play . I reckon his B&F results over his career means you dont know what you are looking at. I am not TRYING to justify his worth, He has justified his own worth by his performances.
I have tried to explain to you why fantasy points and brownlow votes are not reliable indicators for defenders.
You say you are not talking about how good he was back in 2012, nor am I. I told you he finished 5th LAST YEAR, 3rd before that then second. The relevance of 2012 was to highlight that he has consistently performed over a long period and back when we had some seriously good players on the list.
I am just struggling that the basis for your opinion is from YOU watching him play and you think that YOUR assessment is better than the coaching staff over the last seven years, even though you would be unaware of the role or instructions he has been asked to carry out. Is that what you are saying?
I agree with you that Seb would be a great choice also, thats why he is Vice captain and probably will be captain in 2020. If he was nominated captain i reckon it would be well earnt, Robbo a good choice also, but I would like to see him back and playing.
I think what happens sometimes is that players like Geary fly under the radar and its not until the end of their careers that we appreciate the good that they do.
I was a bit like you with Jason Blake, he wasnt great at anything - he played back, forward, ruck , wing and was average at all of them. but towards the end of his career I realised it was his versatility and attitude to do what the team needed him to do that made him valuable.
I reckon you should rethink your position on Geary
Yep, I watch him play and I don’t think he’s very good. Just like Brown, defenders who can’t hurt the opposition at all with their disposal are liabilities in today’s football.
And sorry but I don’t hold the recent coaching staff or their decisions in high regard at all. Where have they taken us in 5 years? Where were we meant to be in their grand plans by now, winning a premiership!? How many of them have been sacked? I think it’s clear they were no where near as competent as they thought they were.
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, and we’ll all see what this season brings.
Crossy66 disagreed with me in another thread about Geary playing as a midfield tagger and being able to get his own ball.
What does that tell you...
Geary is a good leader and stopper but doesn’t have the skill set full stop.
Votes from players, B&F finishes and SuperCoach stats etc are irrelevant.
If I disagreed with you in another post i guess that tells you I disagreed with you... or have i missed something?
You say Geary is a good leader and a good stopper, so I take that to mean you think he would be a good captain and lockdown defender ? but not midfielder?
You think that the opinion of his teams mates, his coaches i.e. the inner sanctum is irrelevant....I would probably disagree with that. For most players, its the opinions that matter most i.e. respect from your peers and those you lead. People OUtSIDE the bubble, like negative fans are the irrelevant ones.
Supercoach and Brownlow votes for sure - completely irrelevant for a defender.
It appears so..
It's not negative to think that Geary can’t play as an effective midfielder who can tag as well as hurt the opposition. It’s just being realistic and win/loss is the only relevant issue.
You are right. Its not negative to say Geary cant play as an effective midfielder etc, its an opinion and maybe even a valid one. I thought early days thats where he would play but he has carved out a career as a backman and has been pretty good . But win / loss is only a relevant issue at a team level, not an individual level. As an example, If you applied that logic to Lockett or a Frawley in the mid 80's neither would be highly rated and that would be inaccurate.
