Jon Ralph on our rucks
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
- asiu
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 10313
- Joined: Thu 08 Apr 2010 8:11pm
- Has thanked: 1327 times
- Been thanked: 932 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
hmmmm
interesting discussion
fans might have a natural 'overview' perspective
(of how things are gelling across the entity)
that the staff do not
by virtue of being in the entity
thus the fans see the signs earlier
(and more naturally)
than the 'officials'
especially on the downward spiral of the journey
interesting discussion
fans might have a natural 'overview' perspective
(of how things are gelling across the entity)
that the staff do not
by virtue of being in the entity
thus the fans see the signs earlier
(and more naturally)
than the 'officials'
especially on the downward spiral of the journey
![Image](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iUpoNBZyaBc/R0zVk-1LCZI/AAAAAAAAAg0/9eeT7D6cnaA/s320/compass-blu-265x220.gif)
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.
.tipara waranta kani nina-tu.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5212
- Joined: Mon 07 Aug 2006 9:50pm
- Location: Queensland - Beautiful one day ... you know the rest
- Has thanked: 65 times
- Been thanked: 318 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
YOU laud him even tho ,,,takeaway wrote: ↑Tue 30 Oct 2018 7:08pm Lauding Lade? Where did I say that? Reasons for his departure from Adelaide and the fact that St Kilda appointed him? What has that got to do with the post?
All I said was I believe Lade was involved in discussions re the ruck stocks, certainly didn't make any decisions re rucks. Don't you think he may have had discussions on various issues with the club well before he arrived? Phew.
"The club" have direct contact and coaches work with the players for a lot of the year, so as far as I am concerned the gap in knowledge re capability, etc of players between the club and a few on SS is so wide it does not matter."
he was not at the club and yet was involved with the futures of players
Seeya
*************
*************
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 988
- Joined: Fri 18 May 2018 10:06am
- Has thanked: 210 times
- Been thanked: 83 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
Not the first time I have said this either. Most of the top sides had a good ruckman this year. WCE with Nic nat out used Vardy and Lycett in combo to nullify any "big" games from opposition ruckman such as Gawn and Grundy. This was very good coaching and these ruckmen did their job perfectly and didnt have to win 50 hitouts to achieve their goal either. Same as Gawn and others, good ruckmen get to contests, stay competitive, they win the ball and they can kick a goal when needed. It will take a couple of years at least until Pierce and Marshall learn the rucking game.Sanctorum wrote: ↑Tue 30 Oct 2018 2:07pm The following comment in the article by Jon Ralph should really be challenged, and destroys his thesis:
"they are the only team in the competition who doesn’t have a ruckman who at his best can change a game."
There are only a few ruckman that have the capability to change a game, and you need only look at how successful the Eagles were without their game changing ruckman (Natanui) to prove the point.
Sure, neither Longer, Pierce or Marshall are there yet, but with expert coaching, and commitment to elite fitness training, will improve significantly in 2019. It was a smart decision by the club to only offer Longer and Pierce 1 year contracts because that should be a great incentive for both of them to challenge for regular selection, and have extensions offered mid season.
- Linton Lodger
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
- Has thanked: 86 times
- Been thanked: 256 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
Champion Data won't show that Billy was a big reason we rolled Melbourne. Yes I know Gawn was everyone's BOG, but he didn't have his way in the ruck duels, as he did often during the season, which allowed Armo & Steele to work over Melbourne's mids.Wayne42 wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:08pm From the Ralph article..
In Longer’s five games this year only his hitout-to advantage statistics were considered by Champion Data to be average — 7.4 per game.
His disposal rate (6.4), contested possessions (2.8), clearance rate (.2) and score involvements were rated poor, his intercept mark rate (0.4) rated below average.
In those five games he took a total of five marks, Grundy besting his 32 possessions for the year in just one Round 4 game against Adelaide (33 possessions).![]()
![]()
The Saints definitely have issues with the quality of their contracted ruckmen for 2019. Hopefully all these off field additions can transform our ruckmen into
AFL quality players.
Gawn played the hero marking in the last line and playing as a defensive wide mid, but he did nothing forward of centre, which is why we won.
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 988
- Joined: Fri 18 May 2018 10:06am
- Has thanked: 210 times
- Been thanked: 83 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
I would have to disagree with that assessment Lodger. Yes, the saints won well, but Bill was given a solid hiding from Gawn around the ground. I don't go by stats all the time, especially if I watch the match live, but on this occasion the discrepancy was alarming in the statistical sense.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3950
- Joined: Thu 24 Sep 2015 3:12pm
- Has thanked: 372 times
- Been thanked: 214 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
chico2001 wrote: ↑Tue 30 Oct 2018 5:58pmNo problems with your first 3 statements except that you are now officially an ITK because you said so but I think you are full of Sh*t, no offence intended. The rest is just rubbish and thread filler. You really need to stop accusing people of trolling and at the same time you have threatened on many occasion to try and "sort" posters out etc.....Do you really think you are the "heavy" in this forum? You had no problem bagging Hickey non stop and for quite a period, but anyway, who cares what you say...it is just crap and mainly about defending a non performing B grade ruckman and nothing else.stonecold wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 8:56pmWhatever, Billy has a contract at St.Kilda, Preuss has not, neither has Hickey, I'll stick with those thoughts of the 'Real Experts' and those close to the coal face, not those on a Fan Forum or in newspaper's!!!!! No offence intended, however, I am closer to the 'coal face' than you or others I believe!!!!!chico2001 wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:58pmHitouts, hitouts and hitouts and Longer averages 8 disposals a game over his career, 1 mark per game..etc etc.....Preuss was an option that is what I am saying. If the saints did not want him as you state then the Dees have made a big mistake. If you look at it sensibly which you cant, Preuss never got a game in 2018 because Goldstein was in outstanding form all year, played 22 games etc ...Go and have a look at his stats if that is your bent, then ask yourself if any St Kilda ruckman would have got a senior game at North in 2018 even if fit!!!!!stonecold wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 7:28pmWell then, compare him to Longer in 2017, when Billy was fit!!!!!chico2001 wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:56pmI was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..stonecold wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 6:05pmOverated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!![]()
So I'm content with the decision and as I stated previously it was always going to go that way!!!!!
Hate saying I told you so, but guess what, I did!!!!!
You really need to stop Trolling on here and head back to the club you support, no offence intended!!!!!
I'm f****** sick of this forum becoming an open opportunity to 'bag the club' at every decision that is made, some of you 'so called' supporters really need to put up, get on or f*** off really!!!!!
No offence intended, but that's how I see it!!!!!
It's OK to have an opinion, sure, however it's not OK to be a bitter supporter, cause there's no such thing really!!!!!
Not an ITK and again, you run with 'no offence', give it a spell, your not even a true Saint!!!!!
'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!
We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!
The 'Last Post', it's the gift that keeps giving![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!
The 'Last Post', it's the gift that keeps giving
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3950
- Joined: Thu 24 Sep 2015 3:12pm
- Has thanked: 372 times
- Been thanked: 214 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
chico2001 wrote: ↑Tue 30 Oct 2018 5:32pmYou are like a few others on here, you only like the stats when they suit your argument.....F**cking weak sook....no offence intended. Make sure you dont get any of that coal on your face either..stonecold wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:21pmAgain, all stats from a few games playing injured, let's see how it all pans out next year?????Wayne42 wrote: ↑Mon 29 Oct 2018 11:08pm From the Ralph article..
In Longer’s five games this year only his hitout-to advantage statistics were considered by Champion Data to be average — 7.4 per game.
His disposal rate (6.4), contested possessions (2.8), clearance rate (.2) and score involvements were rated poor, his intercept mark rate (0.4) rated below average.
In those five games he took a total of five marks, Grundy besting his 32 possessions for the year in just one Round 4 game against Adelaide (33 possessions).![]()
![]()
The Saints definitely have issues with the quality of their contracted ruckmen for 2019. Hopefully all these off field additions can transform our ruckmen into
AFL quality players.
<warning for abuse>
No offence, again!!!!!
Turkish Roll!!!!!
'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!
We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!
The 'Last Post', it's the gift that keeps giving![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
![📯](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f4ef.svg)
We will be great again once Billy is back playing!!!!!
The 'Last Post', it's the gift that keeps giving
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 675
- Joined: Tue 15 Mar 2016 7:03pm
- Has thanked: 85 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.
- samuraisaint
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5870
- Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2011 3:23pm
- Location: M32
- Has thanked: 837 times
- Been thanked: 785 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.
BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.
I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).
I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.
BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.
I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).
I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.
Your friendly neighbourhood samurai.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 2917
- Joined: Mon 28 Apr 2008 4:56pm
- Location: victoria
- Has thanked: 260 times
- Been thanked: 119 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
I may be wrong but I thought Billy was a melbourne boy drafted to Queenslandsamuraisaint wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 3:21pm Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.
BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.
I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).
I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23010
- Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
- Has thanked: 8904 times
- Been thanked: 3883 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
You are not wrong. Billy was originally drafted from the VMFL.bergsone wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 4:25pmI may be wrong but I thought Billy was a melbourne boy drafted to Queenslandsamuraisaint wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 3:21pm Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.
BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.
I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).
I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 2:26pm
- Has thanked: 3522 times
- Been thanked: 2465 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
I don't think guys like Sam Newman competed at the highest level (for 300 games) based on his aggression. Was Simon Madden a star or is Max Gawn a star ruckman because of their aggression?Myron Gaines wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 2:41pm Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.
Give me a skillful tall guy who is an endurance beast and can take a contested mark over any notion that you need aggression. Stand your ground with core strength...yes! Unbalance your opponents and the opposition mids trying to dispossess your teammates...yes! But agreesion for the sake of aggression in the modern game...pointless!!
Billy needs to work hard on his fitness but most of all he needs to work out whether he wants a long AFL career or not
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 675
- Joined: Tue 15 Mar 2016 7:03pm
- Has thanked: 85 times
- Been thanked: 136 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
Don’t get me wrong Billy isn’t a star nor is he ideal. He needs to dramatically improve. But there’s nothing worse than a ruckman dropping their head & lacking aggression when one of their main roles is to lead the midfield & instil confidence.Scollop wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 10:27pmI don't think guys like Sam Newman competed at the highest level (for 300 games) based on his aggression. Was Simon Madden a star or is Max Gawn a star ruckman because of their aggression?Myron Gaines wrote: ↑Sat 03 Nov 2018 2:41pm Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.
Give me a skillful tall guy who is an endurance beast and can take a contested mark over any notion that you need aggression. Stand your ground with core strength...yes! Unbalance your opponents and the opposition mids trying to dispossess your teammates...yes! But agreesion for the sake of aggression in the modern game...pointless!!
Billy needs to work hard on his fitness but most of all he needs to work out whether he wants a long AFL career or not
Too often Hickey dropped his head, looked mentally shot & didn’t give a yelp. At least billy cracks in but agree he’s far from perfect.
Im happy to back Billy in & not disappointment we moved on Hickey. Both have been poor however I think there’s a tad more to work with in regards to Longer.
I would love an aggressive-skilled ruck.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 2:26pm
- Has thanked: 3522 times
- Been thanked: 2465 times
Re: Jon Ralph on our rucks
I'd be dropping my head if I was coached by Richo too...Hickey was a realist. Billy lives in fantasyland most of the time