Jon Ralph on our rucks

[asiu]

hmmmm

interesting discussion

fans might have a natural 'overview' perspective
(of how things are gelling across the entity)
that the staff do not
by virtue of being in the entity

thus the fans see the signs earlier
(and more naturally)
than the 'officials'
especially on the downward spiral of the journey

[sunsaint]

Lauding Lade? Where did I say that? Reasons for his departure from Adelaide and the fact that St Kilda appointed him? What has that got to do with the post?

All I said was I believe Lade was involved in discussions re the ruck stocks, certainly didn't make any decisions re rucks. Don't you think he may have had discussions on various issues with the club well before he arrived? Phew.

YOU laud him even tho ,,,
"The club" have direct contact and coaches work with the players for a lot of the year, so as far as I am concerned the gap in knowledge re capability, etc of players between the club and a few on SS is so wide it does not matter."

he was not at the club and yet was involved with the futures of players

[chico2001]

The following comment in the article by Jon Ralph should really be challenged, and destroys his thesis:

"they are the only team in the competition who doesn’t have a ruckman who at his best can change a game."

There are only a few ruckman that have the capability to change a game, and you need only look at how successful the Eagles were without their game changing ruckman (Natanui) to prove the point.

Sure, neither Longer, Pierce or Marshall are there yet, but with expert coaching, and commitment to elite fitness training, will improve significantly in 2019. It was a smart decision by the club to only offer Longer and Pierce 1 year contracts because that should be a great incentive for both of them to challenge for regular selection, and have extensions offered mid season.

Not the first time I have said this either. Most of the top sides had a good ruckman this year. WCE with Nic nat out used Vardy and Lycett in combo to nullify any "big" games from opposition ruckman such as Gawn and Grundy. This was very good coaching and these ruckmen did their job perfectly and didnt have to win 50 hitouts to achieve their goal either. Same as Gawn and others, good ruckmen get to contests, stay competitive, they win the ball and they can kick a goal when needed. It will take a couple of years at least until Pierce and Marshall learn the rucking game.

[Linton Lodger]

From the Ralph article..

In Longer’s five games this year only his hitout-to advantage statistics were considered by Champion Data to be average — 7.4 per game.
His disposal rate (6.4), contested possessions (2.8), clearance rate (.2) and score involvements were rated poor, his intercept mark rate (0.4) rated below average.
In those five games he took a total of five marks, Grundy besting his 32 possessions for the year in just one Round 4 game against Adelaide (33 possessions).

The Saints definitely have issues with the quality of their contracted ruckmen for 2019. Hopefully all these off field additions can transform our ruckmen into
AFL quality players.

Champion Data won't show that Billy was a big reason we rolled Melbourne. Yes I know Gawn was everyone's BOG, but he didn't have his way in the ruck duels, as he did often during the season, which allowed Armo & Steele to work over Melbourne's mids.

Gawn played the hero marking in the last line and playing as a defensive wide mid, but he did nothing forward of centre, which is why we won.

[chico2001]

I would have to disagree with that assessment Lodger. Yes, the saints won well, but Bill was given a solid hiding from Gawn around the ground. I don't go by stats all the time, especially if I watch the match live, but on this occasion the discrepancy was alarming in the statistical sense.

[stonecold]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

Well then, compare him to Longer in 2017, when Billy was fit!!!!!

Hitouts, hitouts and hitouts and Longer averages 8 disposals a game over his career, 1 mark per game..etc etc.....Preuss was an option that is what I am saying. If the saints did not want him as you state then the Dees have made a big mistake. If you look at it sensibly which you cant, Preuss never got a game in 2018 because Goldstein was in outstanding form all year, played 22 games etc ...Go and have a look at his stats if that is your bent, then ask yourself if any St Kilda ruckman would have got a senior game at North in 2018 even if fit!!!!!

Whatever, Billy has a contract at St.Kilda, Preuss has not, neither has Hickey, I'll stick with those thoughts of the 'Real Experts' and those close to the coal face, not those on a Fan Forum or in newspaper's!!!!! No offence intended, however, I am closer to the 'coal face' than you or others I believe!!!!!

So I'm content with the decision and as I stated previously it was always going to go that way!!!!!

Hate saying I told you so, but guess what, I did!!!!!

You really need to stop Trolling on here and head back to the club you support, no offence intended!!!!!

I'm f****** sick of this forum becoming an open opportunity to 'bag the club' at every decision that is made, some of you 'so called' supporters really need to put up, get on or f*** off really!!!!!

No offence intended, but that's how I see it!!!!!

It's OK to have an opinion, sure, however it's not OK to be a bitter supporter, cause there's no such thing really!!!!!

No problems with your first 3 statements except that you are now officially an ITK because you said so but I think you are full of Sh*t, no offence intended. The rest is just rubbish and thread filler. You really need to stop accusing people of trolling and at the same time you have threatened on many occasion to try and "sort" posters out etc.....Do you really think you are the "heavy" in this forum? You had no problem bagging Hickey non stop and for quite a period, but anyway, who cares what you say...it is just crap and mainly about defending a non performing B grade ruckman and nothing else.

Not an ITK and again, you run with 'no offence', give it a spell, your not even a true Saint!!!!!

[stonecold]

From the Ralph article..

In Longer’s five games this year only his hitout-to advantage statistics were considered by Champion Data to be average — 7.4 per game.
His disposal rate (6.4), contested possessions (2.8), clearance rate (.2) and score involvements were rated poor, his intercept mark rate (0.4) rated below average.
In those five games he took a total of five marks, Grundy besting his 32 possessions for the year in just one Round 4 game against Adelaide (33 possessions).

The Saints definitely have issues with the quality of their contracted ruckmen for 2019. Hopefully all these off field additions can transform our ruckmen into
AFL quality players.

Again, all stats from a few games playing injured, let's see how it all pans out next year?????

You are like a few others on here, you only like the stats when they suit your argument.....F**cking weak sook....no offence intended. Make sure you dont get any of that coal on your face either..

<warning for abuse>

No offence, again!!!!!

Turkish Roll!!!!!

[Myron Gaines]

Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.

[samuraisaint]

Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.

BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.

I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).

I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.

[bergsone]

Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.

BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.

I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).

I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.

I may be wrong but I thought Billy was a melbourne boy drafted to Queensland

[saynta]

Disagree. I haven't seen much aggression from any of our rucks since Gardiner and King left. I honestly think Hickey was the better footballer of the two, and I think that the Eagles trading with us to grab him, while they could have grabbed Lobbe, or taken Billy for nothing reflects that. Granted he may just be a back up until Natanui gets back (if he does). As people on here who are a lot more learned than me have said - he's probably really a bit more of a Follower or midfield type than a ruckman.

BUT - I don't think he was the better tap ruckman of the two - Billy is definitely a better prospect there - although I do put the blame for that fairly and squarely at the feet of those coaches who's responsibility it was to teach and develop our ruckman, rather than at his feet. He was also injury prone which didn't help.

I know they both came from Qld teams, and Hick was a Queenslander with a rugby playing dad, but was Billy a Queenslander too? Because that may have had some effect on his development as a player. And were they both products of the private school system? If so, up there it is all union - they wouldn't even play much league in that environment (and yes, I know Hick was a volleyball player).

I think Longer will be handy, and I do like the way he goes about it, plus I think all three of our ruckmen will benefit from Lade coming over.

I may be wrong but I thought Billy was a melbourne boy drafted to Queensland

You are not wrong. Billy was originally drafted from the VMFL.

[Scollop]

Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.

I don't think guys like Sam Newman competed at the highest level (for 300 games) based on his aggression. Was Simon Madden a star or is Max Gawn a star ruckman because of their aggression?

Give me a skillful tall guy who is an endurance beast and can take a contested mark over any notion that you need aggression. Stand your ground with core strength...yes! Unbalance your opponents and the opposition mids trying to dispossess your teammates...yes! But agreesion for the sake of aggression in the modern game...pointless!!

Billy needs to work hard on his fitness but most of all he needs to work out whether he wants a long AFL career or not

[Myron Gaines]

Im happy to back Longer in. I’ve always rated him higher than Hickey. He has aggression which is a prerequisite for rucks. Hickey was meek & lacked it.

I don't think guys like Sam Newman competed at the highest level (for 300 games) based on his aggression. Was Simon Madden a star or is Max Gawn a star ruckman because of their aggression?

Give me a skillful tall guy who is an endurance beast and can take a contested mark over any notion that you need aggression. Stand your ground with core strength...yes! Unbalance your opponents and the opposition mids trying to dispossess your teammates...yes! But agreesion for the sake of aggression in the modern game...pointless!!

Billy needs to work hard on his fitness but most of all he needs to work out whether he wants a long AFL career or not

Don’t get me wrong Billy isn’t a star nor is he ideal. He needs to dramatically improve. But there’s nothing worse than a ruckman dropping their head & lacking aggression when one of their main roles is to lead the midfield & instil confidence.

Too often Hickey dropped his head, looked mentally shot & didn’t give a yelp. At least billy cracks in but agree he’s far from perfect.

Im happy to back Billy in & not disappointment we moved on Hickey. Both have been poor however I think there’s a tad more to work with in regards to Longer.

I would love an aggressive-skilled ruck.

[Scollop]

I'd be dropping my head if I was coached by Richo too...Hickey was a realist. Billy lives in fantasyland most of the time