How close is Richo to the exit?

[saynta]

I go to a few charity lunches and at one a Saints mate asked a question of Leigh Matthews.
He said what is the difference between the Saints & Hawks?
Leigh said something like the Hawks have belief while the Saints have hope.

He said if the Hawks had of assembled the Saints list from 2000 - 2010 they'd have won four flags in that period while the Saints couldn't get one across the line.

Frightening truth is I believed what he said to be true.

But you continue to believe that bad kicking is what cost us the flag in 2009, don't you? I am confused! Have you changed your mind about whether the game plan or the team selection or the use of players on or off the bench might have been as much to blame?

Ross Lyon was very good but will never be seen as a great coach imo. I did not think he was going to win us a flag and I was only 'hoping' he would once we made those GF. You and others supported the coach and his gameplan rather than understanding what Leigh Matthews is now telling you. The talent was there and the talent was not utilised properly.

You have posted many times in the past that you believe Lyon is a great coach and you believed his bs excuses that it was bad kicking or bad luck or a bad bounce that cost us. You continually rammed down our throats that we simply lost due to the players faults/kicking/etc.. This is what your messiah told you and the 'In Ross we Trust' brigade all repeated the bs party line. I can't understand why you and other people basked in the glory of Lyon's McLennan trophy achievements, and yet you now post that you believe what Lethal said.

After Ross Lyon was appointed and the mess off field settled down, we had the blueprint. I think that's what Lethal is saying...Our players proved they were worthy with AA honours, Norm Smith honours, Best and Fairest honours, a great high performance culture, great leaders on field, sustained output and results against Every Single AFL team to the point of winning 19 in a row...get the picture?? The final ingredient, being list management/team selection and most importantly the game plan all falls back on Mr Career Coach Rossy. I know that there was a footy department and a board that could have played a part with game plan or a slightly different course for team selection and list management but the head honcho super coach was the main one steering the ship

Right now I believe Richo is not the coach to take us forward. Unfortunately, I also think that we performed at our best in 2016/2017 and we need to turn over the list and do somewhat of a rebuild if we are going to challenge for a premiership

Great post, no actually a fantastic post. The truth will hurt some but that is no reason to not print it.

I do however believe that we are starting to turn the list over and are into a mini rebuild with players Marshall, White, Clark, Coffield and now Phillips, getting games.

Before years end, Freeman, Rice and Battle, with Paton a possibility, will be added to that list.

Any year where there are 6, 7 or more debutantes has to be a rebuilding year.

[To the top]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

[Joffa Burns]

I go to a few charity lunches and at one a Saints mate asked a question of Leigh Matthews.
He said what is the difference between the Saints & Hawks?
Leigh said something like the Hawks have belief while the Saints have hope.

He said if the Hawks had of assembled the Saints list from 2000 - 2010 they'd have won four flags in that period while the Saints couldn't get one across the line.

Frightening truth is I believed what he said to be true.

But you continue to believe that bad kicking is what cost us the flag in 2009, don't you? I am confused! Have you changed your mind about whether the game plan or the team selection or the use of players on or off the bench might have been as much to blame?

Ross Lyon was very good but will never be seen as a great coach imo. I did not think he was going to win us a flag and I was only 'hoping' he would once we made those GF. You and others supported the coach and his gameplan rather than understanding what Leigh Matthews is now telling you. The talent was there and the talent was not utilised properly.

You have posted many times in the past that you believe Lyon is a great coach and you believed his bs excuses that it was bad kicking or bad luck or a bad bounce that cost us. You continually rammed down our throats that we simply lost due to the players faults/kicking/etc.. This is what your messiah told you and the 'In Ross we Trust' brigade all repeated the bs party line. I can't understand why you and other people basked in the glory of Lyon's McLennan trophy achievements, and yet you now post that you believe what Lethal said.

After Ross Lyon was appointed and the mess off field settled down, we had the blueprint. I think that's what Lethal is saying...Our players proved they were worthy with AA honours, Norm Smith honours, Best and Fairest honours, a great high performance culture, great leaders on field, sustained output and results against Every Single AFL team to the point of winning 19 in a row...get the picture?? The final ingredient, being list management/team selection and most importantly the game plan all falls back on Mr Career Coach Rossy. I know that there was a footy department and a board that could have played a part with game plan or a slightly different course for team selection and list management but the head honcho super coach was the main one steering the ship

Right now I believe Richo is not the coach to take us forward. Unfortunately, I also think that we performed at our best in 2016/2017 and we need to turn over the list and do somewhat of a rebuild if we are going to challenge for a premiership

Yes scallop, you are correct.

I believe bad kicking in the first half against Geelong cost us the 2009 flag.
We missed 3 very gettable if not easy shots and two sitters (#13 from the top of the square) in the first half.
Nail 3 of these and we win.

I do not believe Leigh's comments and my belief and mutually exclusive, however I see your point that I am hedging my bets both ways. Leigh made comment on a ten year period, I believe Ross coached 4 of those years. His point in my understanding being the club doesn't know what it takes to be successful regardless of the talent on offer.

It's hard to argue Leigh's logic based on history.

I think Lyon was a great coach in 09, he forged a new path with the front press and caught the competition off guard and the season results reflected this. We were the best team for the year and I believe also on GF day, but again we didn't win it. Ross was an innovator in 09 and was copied by all coaches including Malthouse in 10.
Ross continued his form with the Dockers first three seasons but has since been found to be somewhat a one trick defensive pony, he is no longer the innovator.

I stand by my judgement on him at St Kilda. Lyon's team inherited was depleted from the GT squad and I believe if he had been coach from 04 we would have won a couple of flags. GT was the right man for the interim job in 2000 and probably 01. Take on Lyon as coach and GT as mentor director whatever would/ could have been awesome.

I have also heard Roo speak live about the coaches and paid GT the highest praise saying he was a father figure to him, whilst acknowledging that Ross took the team structure and buy in to a whole new level of professionalism when he arrived.
I haven't read his book to know what he wrote about Ross or GT.

Yes I was a Ross fan, also influenced as I have a son who is a sportsman (not AFL) and Ross was very good to him with time and encouragement. He struck me as a very decent guy, that's why I find his current situation surprising and disappointing.
No doubt my opinion is influenced and I rate him higher by the positive exposure.

Lastly on GT, I was not a fan but the GT era was the most exciting time as a Saints support in my memory.

[David-Lee]

Definite NO to Barker as head coach...if you thought Richo uses too many cliches you'd be surprised if this bloke got the top gig.

Neil Craig..NO way!!

The guy's name is McCartney not McCarthy. He'd be a good get as a development coach.

Matthew Knights I reckon he'd be a good assistant, as would Leppa. plus... Brandon White is Leppa's cousin I think.

Why wouldn't you want Neil Craig in a director's position? Is it because of his grand finals or winning percentage? Or his proven ability to hewn diamonds from lumps of coal?

I'd have him all day. But I reckon William's is the guy we need.

[thejiggingsaint]

Definite NO to Barker as head coach...if you thought Richo uses too many cliches you'd be surprised if this bloke got the top gig.

Neil Craig..NO way!!

The guy's name is McCartney not McCarthy. He'd be a good get as a development coach.

Matthew Knights I reckon he'd be a good assistant, as would Leppa. plus... Brandon White is Leppa's cousin I think.

Why wouldn't you want Neil Craig in a director's position? Is it because of his grand finals or winning percentage? Or his proven ability to hewn diamonds from lumps of coal?

I'd have him all day. But I reckon William's is the guy we need.

Mark “ Choco” Williams? As a “ director of football” “mentor” type role as support for Richo? Hmmmmm? That could be a smart move. Only tiny concern for me, would be the ability for Choco to take a “junior” position to the senior coach?

[Teflon]

I go to a few charity lunches and at one a Saints mate asked a question of Leigh Matthews.
He said what is the difference between the Saints & Hawks?
Leigh said something like the Hawks have belief while the Saints have hope.

He said if the Hawks had of assembled the Saints list from 2000 - 2010 they'd have won four flags in that period while the Saints couldn't get one across the line.

Frightening truth is I believed what he said to be true.

But you continue to believe that bad kicking is what cost us the flag in 2009, don't you? I am confused! Have you changed your mind about whether the game plan or the team selection or the use of players on or off the bench might have been as much to blame?

Ross Lyon was very good but will never be seen as a great coach imo. I did not think he was going to win us a flag and I was only 'hoping' he would once we made those GF. You and others supported the coach and his gameplan rather than understanding what Leigh Matthews is now telling you. The talent was there and the talent was not utilised properly.

You have posted many times in the past that you believe Lyon is a great coach and you believed his bs excuses that it was bad kicking or bad luck or a bad bounce that cost us. You continually rammed down our throats that we simply lost due to the players faults/kicking/etc.. This is what your messiah told you and the 'In Ross we Trust' brigade all repeated the bs party line. I can't understand why you and other people basked in the glory of Lyon's McLennan trophy achievements, and yet you now post that you believe what Lethal said.

After Ross Lyon was appointed and the mess off field settled down, we had the blueprint. I think that's what Lethal is saying...Our players proved they were worthy with AA honours, Norm Smith honours, Best and Fairest honours, a great high performance culture, great leaders on field, sustained output and results against Every Single AFL team to the point of winning 19 in a row...get the picture?? The final ingredient, being list management/team selection and most importantly the game plan all falls back on Mr Career Coach Rossy. I know that there was a footy department and a board that could have played a part with game plan or a slightly different course for team selection and list management but the head honcho super coach was the main one steering the ship

Right now I believe Richo is not the coach to take us forward. Unfortunately, I also think that we performed at our best in 2016/2017 and we need to turn over the list and do somewhat of a rebuild if we are going to challenge for a premiership

Yes scallop, you are correct.

I believe bad kicking in the first half against Geelong cost us the 2009 flag.
We missed 3 very gettable if not easy shots and two sitters (#13 from the top of the square) in the first half.
Nail 3 of these and we win.

I do not believe Leigh's comments and my belief and mutually exclusive, however I see your point that I am hedging my bets both ways. Leigh made comment on a ten year period, I believe Ross coached 4 of those years. His point in my understanding being the club doesn't know what it takes to be successful regardless of the talent on offer.

It's hard to argue Leigh's logic based on history.

I think Lyon was a great coach in 09, he forged a new path with the front press and caught the competition off guard and the season results reflected this. We were the best team for the year and I believe also on GF day, but again we didn't win it. Ross was an innovator in 09 and was copied by all coaches including Malthouse in 10.
Ross continued his form with the Dockers first three seasons but has since been found to be somewhat a one trick defensive pony, he is no longer the innovator.

I stand by my judgement on him at St Kilda. Lyon's team inherited was depleted from the GT squad and I believe if he had been coach from 04 we would have won a couple of flags. GT was the right man for the interim job in 2000 and probably 01. Take on Lyon as coach and GT as mentor director whatever would/ could have been awesome.

I have also heard Roo speak live about the coaches and paid GT the highest praise saying he was a father figure to him, whilst acknowledging that Ross took the team structure and buy in to a whole new level of professionalism when he arrived.
I haven't read his book to know what he wrote about Ross or GT.

Yes I was a Ross fan, also influenced as I have a son who is a sportsman (not AFL) and Ross was very good to him with time and encouragement. He struck me as a very decent guy, that's why I find his current situation surprising and disappointing.
No doubt my opinion is influenced and I rate him higher by the positive exposure.

Lastly on GT, I was not a fan but the GT era was the most exciting time as a Saints support in my memory.

Superb post and reply Joffa - it's incredible some on here will look at anything to simply shoot our MOST SUCCESSFULL modern era coach down.

You don't win GFs unless u get to them and in 09 with 33 inside 50's to 18 first half tells u we were the better team but execution in front of goals killed us - I too recall 13 in the goal square still in disbelief . Incredible that some here can't see the difference between missing goals in A game versus missing goals for a third of a season??? Seriously
As Matthews comments are they really that earth shatteringly revealing?
Again, he's talking about comparing a club bathed in perennial success with a club bathed in failure - where would you really expect to find most belief?
I do know this: that same confident club with a very strong president would NEVER extend a coach with a 36% winning record and the same club with a very strong , mongrel minded senior coach, would not stand by while club recruiters continued to serve up half assed, unprofessional assessments that lead to continual recruitment of HBFs with no foot skills...
Finally, that same clubs supporters DEMAND success - ours are just happy with a favourable news article
None of the above is Ross Lyons doing
Lastly, I too am convinced had Lyon had the group earlier we'd have flags - I believe GT was needed for a season or 2 for stability after Blight but he was no football tactician - Lyon was and ahead of his time at that time
When Thomas told me "there are no better coaches out there - why would I step aside" I knew we had a problem. This from a guy whose claim was he coached Warrnambool FFS against senior coaches like Eade and others who didn't have a gig at that time??
People let this guy off the hook but had we had a GENUINE AFL ready tactician and not a work experience guy, learning in the job with a superb list we'd have flags
Even one of his OWN assistant coaches told me face to face "Thomas farked your club" that is FACT and muppets here still don't get it and slurp up his corporate bullshyre soin
It astounds me to this day how so many can be so gullible.

[Teflon]

I go to a few charity lunches and at one a Saints mate asked a question of Leigh Matthews.
He said what is the difference between the Saints & Hawks?
Leigh said something like the Hawks have belief while the Saints have hope.

He said if the Hawks had of assembled the Saints list from 2000 - 2010 they'd have won four flags in that period while the Saints couldn't get one across the line.

Frightening truth is I believed what he said to be true.

But you continue to believe that bad kicking is what cost us the flag in 2009, don't you? I am confused! Have you changed your mind about whether the game plan or the team selection or the use of players on or off the bench might have been as much to blame?

Ross Lyon was very good but will never be seen as a great coach imo. I did not think he was going to win us a flag and I was only 'hoping' he would once we made those GF. You and others supported the coach and his gameplan rather than understanding what Leigh Matthews is now telling you. The talent was there and the talent was not utilised properly.

You have posted many times in the past that you believe Lyon is a great coach and you believed his bs excuses that it was bad kicking or bad luck or a bad bounce that cost us. You continually rammed down our throats that we simply lost due to the players faults/kicking/etc.. This is what your messiah told you and the 'In Ross we Trust' brigade all repeated the bs party line. I can't understand why you and other people basked in the glory of Lyon's McLennan trophy achievements, and yet you now post that you believe what Lethal said.

After Ross Lyon was appointed and the mess off field settled down, we had the blueprint. I think that's what Lethal is saying...Our players proved they were worthy with AA honours, Norm Smith honours, Best and Fairest honours, a great high performance culture, great leaders on field, sustained output and results against Every Single AFL team to the point of winning 19 in a row...get the picture?? The final ingredient, being list management/team selection and most importantly the game plan all falls back on Mr Career Coach Rossy. I know that there was a footy department and a board that could have played a part with game plan or a slightly different course for team selection and list management but the head honcho super coach was the main one steering the ship

Right now I believe Richo is not the coach to take us forward. Unfortunately, I also think that we performed at our best in 2016/2017 and we need to turn over the list and do somewhat of a rebuild if we are going to challenge for a premiership

Yes scallop, you are correct.

I believe bad kicking in the first half against Geelong cost us the 2009 flag.
We missed 3 very gettable if not easy shots and two sitters (#13 from the top of the square) in the first half.
Nail 3 of these and we win.

I do not believe Leigh's comments and my belief and mutually exclusive, however I see your point that I am hedging my bets both ways. Leigh made comment on a ten year period, I believe Ross coached 4 of those years. His point in my understanding being the club doesn't know what it takes to be successful regardless of the talent on offer.

It's hard to argue Leigh's logic based on history.

I think Lyon was a great coach in 09, he forged a new path with the front press and caught the competition off guard and the season results reflected this. We were the best team for the year and I believe also on GF day, but again we didn't win it. Ross was an innovator in 09 and was copied by all coaches including Malthouse in 10.
Ross continued his form with the Dockers first three seasons but has since been found to be somewhat a one trick defensive pony, he is no longer the innovator.

I stand by my judgement on him at St Kilda. Lyon's team inherited was depleted from the GT squad and I believe if he had been coach from 04 we would have won a couple of flags. GT was the right man for the interim job in 2000 and probably 01. Take on Lyon as coach and GT as mentor director whatever would/ could have been awesome.

I have also heard Roo speak live about the coaches and paid GT the highest praise saying he was a father figure to him, whilst acknowledging that Ross took the team structure and buy in to a whole new level of professionalism when he arrived.
I haven't read his book to know what he wrote about Ross or GT.

Yes I was a Ross fan, also influenced as I have a son who is a sportsman (not AFL) and Ross was very good to him with time and encouragement. He struck me as a very decent guy, that's why I find his current situation surprising and disappointing.
No doubt my opinion is influenced and I rate him higher by the positive exposure.

Lastly on GT, I was not a fan but the GT era was the most exciting time as a Saints support in my memory.

Superb post and reply Joffa - it's incredible some on here will look at anything to simply shoot our MOST SUCCESSFULL modern era coach down.

You don't win GFs unless u get to them and in 09 with 33 inside 50's to 18 first half tells u we were the better team but execution in front of goals killed us - I too recall 13 in the goal square still in disbelief . Incredible that some here can't see the difference between missing goals in A game versus missing goals for a third of a season??? Seriously
As Matthews comments are they really that earth shatteringly revealing?
Again, he's talking about comparing a club bathed in perennial success with a club bathed in failure - where would you really expect to find most belief?
I do know this: that same confident club with a very strong president would NEVER extend a coach with a 36% winning record and the same club with a very strong , mongrel minded senior coach, would not stand by while club recruiters continued to serve up half assed, unprofessional assessments that lead to continual recruitment of HBFs with no foot skills...
Finally, that same clubs supporters DEMAND success - ours are just happy with a favourable news article
None of the above is Ross Lyons doing
Lastly, I too am convinced had Lyon had the group earlier we'd have flags - I believe GT was needed for a season or 2 for stability after Blight but he was no football tactician - Lyon was and ahead of his time at that time
When Thomas told me "there are no better coaches out there - why would I step aside" I knew we had a problem. This from a guy whose claim was he coached Warrnambool FFS against senior coaches like Eade and others who didn't have a gig at that time??
People let this guy off the hook but had we had a GENUINE AFL ready tactician and not a work experience guy, learning in the job with a superb list we'd have flags
Even one of his OWN assistant coaches told me face to face "Thomas farked your club" that is FACT and muppets here still don't get it and slurp up his corporate bullshyre soin
It astounds me to this day how so many can be so gullible.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[fugazi]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

[congorozides]

Good post from to the top and I agree with almost all of it. Our core group is awful. Having to rely on the likes of Weller, Newnes, Geary, Armo, Brown, Savage and Koby Stevens is a recipe for disaster.

But the club is responsible for its own list management and we have had plenty of time to address this. 7 years in fact.

Some on here were trying to claim Bains was a genius. He obviously wasnt.

[suss]

In terms of experience and therefore leadership St Kilda have Gilbert (202 games), Geary (171), Steven (162), Brown (160), Armitage (157), Savage (131), Roberton (126), Newnes (121), Carlisle (115) and Weller (112).

And that is where the problem lays.

We are putting responsibility on players at various stages of building to 100 games of experience because those we have on our List with over 100 games in experience (and in the absence of Roberton) include only Carlisle and Steven (and Armitage on past performances and now needing to build) who can set a standard.

We might successively "knock" those at various stages of building to 100 games of experience (and I use that description for a very particular reason), but the simple fact is that we rely on those players gaining that experience and setting standards over their careers to build a strong on field presence.

That there is virtually no one taking the weight off their young shoulders at this time means we are left to watch them evolve in the oven.

When a side plays St Kilda, and the opposition assess St Kilda's dangerous players to be minimised, negated and sidelined in terms of contribution, what names do they come up with?

Jack Steven, obviously.

Carlisle is a key defender.

So who is tagged and/or double teamed?

Don't be too quick to "knock" our young players, Drafted with top 25 Picks because there is every chance that if they were in a side with an established core of mature talent including exceptional talent at the top end, therefore the cream on the pudding, they would be contributing at the level afforded to them because they are complimentary players to team performance, not the core.

Give them time and experience and watch them develop - because they are all developing in a pretty savage environment.

This is what Richardson, as Coach, has as his tools of trade when it comes to Win/Loss.

v Fremantle, the question I immediately have is who can kick our goals?

We have a mid-fielder sized Membrey, Marshall whose hands can not grab the ball (and he is off the Rookie List and only a couple of games in anyway), then Weller who does not kick goals, Billings and Gresham who are only a few games in and some inside mid-fielders who lack the required pace and natural inventiveness to be potent goal kicking options.

So who gets the hard job done on them?

This is where the likes of Weller, Savage, Geary, Newnes as our mid sized group can not pick up the "slack" by saying to the competition "We are the experienced game changers when you play St Kilda" so it us you have to plan around.

Gilbert is versatile, honest and competes, and can break a line.

But the others named apart from Steven and Carlisle (who is excellent with the ball)?

Apart from Carlisle and Freeman, those we have recruited from other Clubs were struggling to establish at those Clubs and have come to St Kilda for opportunity denied them elsewhere.

There is a story in that as well.

The damage to this Club was inflicted some years ago and now we pay the price.

So, if you want to follow St Kilda, cut some slack because that is where the Club currently is at

The Australian cricket side is in exactly the same position.

And paying for having selected the likes of Voges and Bailey and a few others.

Good read. Even though it looks like a disastrous year.
It will decelop into a good team if we switch coaches and add an A grader or two. Just need some class around the contests.

It's a cracking read isn't it, and I hope too that our predicament can be remedied by a top-3 draft pick, a couple of expensive free agents, and perhaps a midfield gun from GWS.

It alludes also to the gaping chasm that has been left by Nick Riewoldt. God what I'd give to have him back right now.

[congorozides]

It's a cracking read isn't it, and I hope too that our predicament can be remedied by a top-3 draft pick, a couple of expensive free agents, and perhaps a midfield gun from GWS.

It alludes also to the gaping chasm that has been left by Nick Riewoldt. God what I'd give to have him back right now.

How realistic is it for us to lure those quality players in the present circumstances?

[older saint]

My greatest frustration at the moment is based on skill , or lack there of. To me recruiters, coaches , development coaches including Sandy, and the individual players all have to take a level of responsibility for the skill issue.
We have not recruited well. We have not traded well. Not having our own VFL team we have not developed well. Bob Murphy said on radio recently one of the main things which helped them win the flag was they had a standalone team and it allowed them to have players playing the same position and same game plan so when one got injured the next slotted in and was doing the same things as norma, just at a new level.

Is Richo the coach for the future, not sure but while all these other obvious things continue - especially goal kicking , i don't think anyone really knows what type of coach he is. Like players he has had shocker - Geelong game not changing to have 6 forwards because scared of their midfield.

Selectors lack backbone to be tough on players, and a few there have grand father type deals which mean they are not questioned and allowed to roll along without question . All positions should be under the microscope.

[suss]

It's a cracking read isn't it, and I hope too that our predicament can be remedied by a top-3 draft pick, a couple of expensive free agents, and perhaps a midfield gun from GWS.

It alludes also to the gaping chasm that has been left by Nick Riewoldt. God what I'd give to have him back right now.

How realistic is it for us to lure those quality players in the present circumstances?

Very difficult, but I live in hope. At least we have a tonne of cash to spend.

I didn't think we needed another forward but now I'm thinking that we need Lynch in the hope that Paddy doesn't come on. And we need Gaff. He's a seagull but the seagull we need desperately.

I have no-idea whether we have a chance of luring any of these players but **** I hope we try.