I need help

[Saint wagga]

There are plenty of good poinits being made, either side of the argument. My two cents worth are people are willing to hang there hat on a good 3 or so games hickey played early 2014, pretty small body of work. As mentioned when defending/pumping up selection descsions, plenty of people go the argument 'the coaches have far more stats and are seeing the guys at training days a week', and are obviously rating Longer as the dominant ruckman so far this season, Im happy with their call here.

If everyone is on board at a player and coach level, i see nothing wrong with persevring with hickey's ongoing baptism of fire a s a forward (he'll be good some weeks, no so good others)...In fact i think its showing the type of guts that can pay really big reward in the medium to longer term (no pun intended)...I think of Sydney and Mike Pike...the boldness and belief in selection to work through his first 30 games where he suclked big time, but they held their nerve, they trusted the devlopment coaches and their 'system' to bring him on...and viola, they have reaped a huge dividend...Im going to back the coaches and the set up and i hope this bold experientation pays off when it really counts in a few years.

We have to remember to, that injury will naturaly help with team balance some weeks...but it's up to younger players/other options to bang the door down and when given a shot, demand selection through outstanding performance...people wanting membrey or mccartin...theyve had a taste and both are promising , but hardly demandng selction based on AFL form...

[Linton Lodger]

Hickey was limping last week (Brisbane game) before been subbed. Yesterday I think it was just a matter of injecting more run. And perhaps there is an injury? Anyway I have no issue with the way both are being played from a development perspective. Aside from yesterday, Hickey has been dangerous forward. Also, I reckon Holmes will also be knocking on the door by next year.

[seano1]

well what can one say......one bloke complaining that Longers tap outs are sharked by the opposition...omg really....do you think this wouldn`t happen in all teams...don't you think our mids would be trying A: get to Longers tap outs B: pick off the ....wait for it ....the other ruckmans tap outs...now its just a guess mind you but I think it happens every F#$king game. Also what the frees umpires are paying against Longer is quite mystifying so I cant help but think how frustrating that must be.
And there are others who think we have someone else to bring in and ruck WE DONT!!!! get over it build the bridge and move on.
He is a young ruckman and like the other young guys learning how to play . Hickey is injured for sure but he is handy in the forward line for now...Holmes would be worth a shot but he to is learning and from a lot further back than the other two.
Then we have the pick on our experienced guys...now we could be like say Carlton f all older players helping and showing the younger guys where to go or like the suns (stuffed)..so they make mistakes so do our kids.. we need these older guys . And we have the pick on the coach bunch......wtf...apply for the job if you are any better...guess what your not ...who would you have......there is not a lot out there and don't say Rob Harvey....great player don't get me wrong but I haven`t heard what a stand out he is at being ass coach yet, Richo is doing a good job and we do have some guys saying that his match day moves aren`t great.....now there was a story on the saints site about a young guy who came to us from another club who is the analyst for the game day moves.
What we really need is maybe better skill coaching longer lessons/training on kicking,marking and handballing and a serious one on one training get to know sessions with the umpires for they of late are making look like were playing against another 4 blokes

[FQF]

Longer has good hit out stats, but more importantly, he can ruck for an entire game.

Does Hickey have the endurance to ruck 90% of a game? Because if we move him into Longer's position, we will have no second ruck.

I reckon it's as simple as that.

Longer's endurance just means we have more of the game where we have a player in the midfield who doesn't get a touch.

You need to come up with a better alternative to be able to say that.

If Hickey can't even compete at the ruck contests (or anywhere else) by the time the last quarter rolls around, then Longer with all his deficiencies is still a better option.

Hickey's position has been undermined by the trade of Stanley who was our only viable forward/ruck.

[stjay]

Hickey is getting played out of position and now looks like he has lost confidence. Remember this is the guy that ran Mumford off his feet and kicked three goals last year before getting injured. He was clearly our no.1 ruck option. He hasn't been able to get any continuity in his game since.
Since last year Longer has, somehow, claimed that no.1 spot but its only his tapwork that seems to be in his favour. His work forward is non-existant, around the ground work seems woeful most of the time although to be fair he has been OK in contested marking. The kid is young and needs a lot of work although he will be OK.

In the short term, I can't see any solution to this other than Hickey going back and building his confidence at Sandy.
To me it is Longer who ultimately needs to go back and added more facets to his game. Hickey is a more dynamic player and is our best all-round option when he is up and going in my view.

[Freebird]

Hickey is getting played out of position and now looks like he has lost confidence. Remember this is the guy that ran Mumford off his feet and kicked three goals last year before getting injured. He was clearly our no.1 ruck option. He hasn't been able to get any continuity in his game since.
Since last year Longer has, somehow, claimed that no.1 spot but its only his tapwork that seems to be in his favour. His work forward is non-existant, around the ground work seems woeful most of the time although to be fair he has been OK in contested marking. The kid is young and needs a lot of work although he will be OK.

In the short term, I can't see any solution to this other than Hickey going back and building his confidence at Sandy.
To me it is Longer who ultimately needs to go back and added more facets to his game. Hickey is a more dynamic player and is our best all-round option when he is up and going in my view.

Fortunately for Hickey, a great quarter against GWS has not escaped the memories of most.

He did display a similar quarter against us....history says that's all one needs to do for us to draft/trade for them.

[plugger66]

Hickey is getting played out of position and now looks like he has lost confidence. Remember this is the guy that ran Mumford off his feet and kicked three goals last year before getting injured. He was clearly our no.1 ruck option. He hasn't been able to get any continuity in his game since.
Since last year Longer has, somehow, claimed that no.1 spot but its only his tapwork that seems to be in his favour. His work forward is non-existant, around the ground work seems woeful most of the time although to be fair he has been OK in contested marking. The kid is young and needs a lot of work although he will be OK.

In the short term, I can't see any solution to this other than Hickey going back and building his confidence at Sandy.
To me it is Longer who ultimately needs to go back and added more facets to his game. Hickey is a more dynamic player and is our best all-round option when he is up and going in my view.

Fortunately for Hickey, a great quarter against GWS has not escaped the memories of most.

He did display a similar quarter against us....history says that's all one needs to do for us to draft/trade for them.

Have you actually bothered to either watch the actual game or at least look at stats to see Longer last 6 games and also how the opposition ruckman has gone to see how ordinary Longer is playing at the moment. And this is directed at you but how do we know Hickey is injured.

[gringo]

Hickey is getting played out of position and now looks like he has lost confidence. Remember this is the guy that ran Mumford off his feet and kicked three goals last year before getting injured. He was clearly our no.1 ruck option. He hasn't been able to get any continuity in his game since.
Since last year Longer has, somehow, claimed that no.1 spot but its only his tapwork that seems to be in his favour. His work forward is non-existant, around the ground work seems woeful most of the time although to be fair he has been OK in contested marking. The kid is young and needs a lot of work although he will be OK.

In the short term, I can't see any solution to this other than Hickey going back and building his confidence at Sandy.
To me it is Longer who ultimately needs to go back and added more facets to his game. Hickey is a more dynamic player and is our best all-round option when he is up and going in my view.

Fortunately for Hickey, a great quarter against GWS has not escaped the memories of most.

He did display a similar quarter against us....history says that's all one needs to do for us to draft/trade for them.

Have you actually bothered to either watch the actual game or at least look at stats to see Longer last 6 games and also how the opposition ruckman has gone to see how ordinary Longer is playing at the moment. And this is directed at you but how do we know Hickey is injured.

I know you have this idea in your head but I haven't once noticed Billy being a problem in the ruck. You used to defend Big Mac no matter how few hit outs he got though so you obviously don't rate rucks. He isn't wow but he's battling along okay. Not many rucks are multi dimensional and few rack up a lot of marks or possessions and if they do they usually lose out in the ruck dual. I would say the midfield isn't going well either so I'm not sure bringing in Hickey is an instant fix.

[plugger66]

Hickey is getting played out of position and now looks like he has lost confidence. Remember this is the guy that ran Mumford off his feet and kicked three goals last year before getting injured. He was clearly our no.1 ruck option. He hasn't been able to get any continuity in his game since.
Since last year Longer has, somehow, claimed that no.1 spot but its only his tapwork that seems to be in his favour. His work forward is non-existant, around the ground work seems woeful most of the time although to be fair he has been OK in contested marking. The kid is young and needs a lot of work although he will be OK.

In the short term, I can't see any solution to this other than Hickey going back and building his confidence at Sandy.
To me it is Longer who ultimately needs to go back and added more facets to his game. Hickey is a more dynamic player and is our best all-round option when he is up and going in my view.

Fortunately for Hickey, a great quarter against GWS has not escaped the memories of most.

He did display a similar quarter against us....history says that's all one needs to do for us to draft/trade for them.

Have you actually bothered to either watch the actual game or at least look at stats to see Longer last 6 games and also how the opposition ruckman has gone to see how ordinary Longer is playing at the moment. And this is directed at you but how do we know Hickey is injured.

I know you have this idea in your head but I haven't once noticed Billy being a problem in the ruck. You used to defend Big Mac no matter how few hit outs he got though so you obviously don't rate rucks. He isn't wow but he's battling along okay. Not many rucks are multi dimensional and few rack up a lot of marks or possessions and if they do they usually lose out in the ruck dual. I would say the midfield isn't going well either so I'm not sure bringing in Hickey is an instant fix.

Have you noticed that because Longer rucks Hickey doesn't? I suppose its just bad luck for Hickey. Have you noticed that Longer hardly touches the ball and the opposition ruckman nearly always plays their best game. And it isn't about an instant fix, its about competing around the ground with the opposition ruckman. I used to defend McEvoy but don't rate rucks. Well that is interesting. Maybe Ben was a small HFF.

[barwonsaint]

Hickey would have to be the worst mark of any ruckman in the competion ! How can anyone that size just get his hands to the ball with someone of less height on his tail and it just pops out.It happens time and time again.Just look at the contested marks Buuce takes puts him to shame.I like bash and crash ruckmen and he aint !!

[plugger66]

Hickey would have to be the worst mark of any ruckman in the competion ! How can anyone that size just get his hands to the ball with someone of less height on his tail and it just pops out.It happens time and time again.Just look at the contested marks Buuce takes puts him to shame.I like bash and crash ruckmen and he aint !!

Hickey worse Longer. tell me you aren't serious? Please. And of course Bruce puts him to shame. he is a marking KPP. Hickey isn't and never will be.

[dragit]

Couldn't agree any more plugs... Been saying similar for weeks.

[samuraisaint]

The next three weeks will be telling. Dawes won't be back next week, and if he is will be severely underdone. Bulldogs have Minson, but his form along with Cordy's has been lacking. after them we play Essendon and Bellchambers looks like he is in all sorts of trouble. Richardson needs to either give Hickey a shot at rucking all day as #1 ruckman, or persevere with structure he has. It takes a while for guys 200cm + to click sometimes. If we win the next three, with Billy and Tom combining well, we may have found our ruck combo for the next decade.

[samuraisaint]

Hickey would have to be the worst mark of any ruckman in the competion ! How can anyone that size just get his hands to the ball with someone of less height on his tail and it just pops out.It happens time and time again.Just look at the contested marks Buuce takes puts him to shame.I like bash and crash ruckmen and he aint !!

It's a confidence game. The next three weeks should allow him to build some confidence. After that comes Mumford. Could be an interesting month.

[bergholt]

There are plenty of good poinits being made, either side of the argument. My two cents worth are people are willing to hang there hat on a good 3 or so games hickey played early 2014, pretty small body of work.

Whereas Longer has a big body of work to judge him on - played 25 of the last 27 without getting in the votes once.

There's every chance he's going to be a good player at some point, but it's hard to argue that he's doing really well right now.

[matrix]

How many hut outs to advantage for both ruckman?
Get your hand to the ball a thousand times means nothing if you are tapping it to the opposition mids.

We are getting killed in clearances.

I'd like to know the hitouts to advantage

[Sobraz]

Assuming Longer holds his spot (and it seems he's undroppable) he'll be up against Gawn this week.

He really needs to win the head to head contest, and I don't mean just get more tap outs, which is unlikely as Gawn is 209 cms so more than likely will gets first hands to the ball.

Gawns also played only 27 games, so is just as inexperienced as Billy.

It's a must win week for Longer, hopefully he proves me wrong with my perception that he's merely a slow moving tree with concrete hands.

[Mr Magic]

It would be interesting to know what the Selection Committee assessment of this is?
We can all offer our opinions on Longer vs hickey and yet the Selectors/Coaching staff have been strong in opting for Longer at every opportunity.
Why?
(and it's not plausible that he holds embarrassing photos of the selectors)
There's obviously something he's doing and/or Hickey is not doing for the Selectors to keep preferring Longer over Hickey.
And it must be something major given that Longer was 'apparently' out of favour when training resumed after Xmas.

Or is it simply that they've decided we need an extra tall up forward for structure and Hickey is (in their opinion) the best option atm?
If so, what does that say about White? (McCartin is too young/inexperienced/immature physically to be even considered).

[FQF]

It would be interesting to know what the Selection Committee assessment of this is?
We can all offer our opinions on Longer vs hickey and yet the Selectors/Coaching staff have been strong in opting for Longer at every opportunity.
Why?
(and it's not plausible that he holds embarrassing photos of the selectors)
There's obviously something he's doing and/or Hickey is not doing for the Selectors to keep preferring Longer over Hickey.
And it must be something major given that Longer was 'apparently' out of favour when training resumed after Xmas.

Or is it simply that they've decided we need an extra tall up forward for structure and Hickey is (in their opinion) the best option atm?
If so, what does that say about White? (McCartin is too young/inexperienced/immature physically to be even considered).

My best guess is some combination of these factors:

Major factors
1. Hickey is the most suited player on our list to play forward/ruck.
2. Longer has the physical ability to play 90% of every game in the ruck, and is an ineffective forward.

Minor factors
1. Hickey doesn't offer our mids much at the contests.
2. Both are fit, training well and deserve senior selection.

Speculative
1. Longer is perceived to have a higher ceiling (obviously an elite junior) and we are willing to grit our teeth through the early stages in the hope we will develop an elite ruck.