4 weeks of observations
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
Re: 4 weeks of observations
When's the 4 weeks (downgraded to 2) of reflection thread coming out p66?
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Agreed. The "speed" fixation is a furphy. Hawks midfielders aren't that fast, they're just quick enough and smart enough to be where the ball is. Same with the Swans mids. Geelong has never had a huge amount of pace through their midfield. Collingwood has a couple of quick ones but most of them are similar.spert wrote:Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first.
Look at the last few Brownlows. Up there are players like Selwood, Watson, Mitchell, Cotchin, Dal Santo, Boyd, Hayes, Pendlebury - none of them particularly fast. Judd and Dangerfield are a bit quicker, Ablett and Swan definitely fast but the majority of star midfielders aren't speedsters.
We just need guys who are smart enough to find the ball and skilled enough to use it well. Here's my view of the chances of our mids getting to a solid standard in a couple of years:
PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes
LIKELY: Saunders, Webster, Wright
MAYBE: Acres, Curren, Milera, Murdoch, Ross, Shenton, Templeton, Weller
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Markworth, Minchington, Savage
We need more probables. Hopefully over the remainder of this year a few of those maybes move up at least into the likely category. And maybe even a couple of the unlikelies move up. If not we're going to have an even longer rebuild.
But it really doesn't matter which of them have pace.
- Dis Believer
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5088
- Joined: Sun 28 Mar 2004 1:42pm
- Location: The terraces at Moorabbin, in the pouring rain.......
- Has thanked: 255 times
- Been thanked: 272 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:bergholt wrote:Agreed. The "speed" fixation is a furphy. Hawks midfielders aren't that fast, they're just quick enough and smart enough to be where the ball is. Same with the Swans mids. Geelong has never had a huge amount of pace through their midfield. Collingwood has a couple of quick ones but most of them are similar.spert wrote:Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first.
Look at the last few Brownlows. Up there are players like Selwood, Watson, Mitchell, Cotchin, Dal Santo, Boyd, Hayes, Pendlebury - none of them particularly fast. Judd and Dangerfield are a bit quicker, Ablett and Swan definitely fast but the majority of star midfielders aren't speedsters.
We just need guys who are smart enough to find the ball and skilled enough to use it well. Here's my view of the chances of our mids getting to a solid standard in a couple of years:
PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes
LIKELY: Saunders, Webster, Wright
MAYBE: Acres, Curren, Milera, Murdoch, Ross, Shenton, Templeton, Weller
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Markworth, Minchington, Savage
We need more probables. Hopefully over the remainder of this year a few of those maybes move up at least into the likely category. And maybe even a couple of the unlikelies move up. If not we're going to have an even longer rebuild.
But it really doesn't matter which of them have pace.
b]PROBABLE[/b]: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
- Dis Believer
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5088
- Joined: Sun 28 Mar 2004 1:42pm
- Location: The terraces at Moorabbin, in the pouring rain.......
- Has thanked: 255 times
- Been thanked: 272 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
It's that "maybe" group where we need to get some results, that will accelerate our improvement as a team......
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Probably and likely mean the same thing.
Apart from that, how is Murdoch in the likely category when he can't break into the team? What's his position?
Apart from that, how is Murdoch in the likely category when he can't break into the team? What's his position?
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
I dont think anyone is saying 'speed maketh the player' we are saying based on our CURRENT list then speed and ball use are the two major factors we lack. Of course - Plenty of good players arent quick and read the play well but you need a balance in the side and we dont have that with our current list. So for our current needs with our list - its a weakness.
For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.
So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the bal. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the foorwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a dfence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.
For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.
So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the bal. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the foorwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a dfence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
I dont think anyone is saying 'speed maketh the player' we are saying based on our CURRENT list then speed and ball use are the two major factors we lack. Of course - Plenty of good players arent quick and read the play well but you need a balance in the side and we dont have that with our current list. So for our current needs with our list - its a weakness.
For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross, Breust and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.
So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the ball. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the forwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a defence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.
For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross, Breust and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.
So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the ball. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the forwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a defence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Tue 20 May 2014 4:01pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 4 weeks of observations
spert wrote:Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first. Too many of our mids are flat-footed and waiting for the ball to come out rather than initiating the play, and the look slow when trying to catch opponents. It drove me nuts against Hawthorn to see so many of our guys stand up to 10 metres from their opponents, who run and spread, and then we have no chance of catching up and applying pressure, and that's why we look slow and are down in possession counts- especially obvious against the Suns in the first half.
It's a coaching thing to fix this, but far too many of our players are watching the game and not their opponent. I watched Ablett around packs, and he was totally watching the ball at all times at ball ups, never took his eyes off it, while our guys were more busy looking at their opponents and trying to block.
Richo probably needs to let some of the guys play their natural games
Surely our coach knows this. Matter of fact i would be certain. There would be reasons we play as we do that none of us here would be qualified to know.
- Dave McNamara
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5709
- Joined: Wed 21 Sep 2011 2:44pm
- Location: Slotting another one from 94.5m out. Opposition flood? Bring it on...! Keep the faith Saintas!
- Has thanked: 80 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
I agree, the need for speed... leg speed vs ball movement speed... always an interesting one.True Believer wrote:Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:
PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington
IMHO a lack of outright speed can be offset defensively by concentrating hard on not giving the opposition's speedsters space, particularly goal-side.
And offensively... by hard and smart running... no matter how quick the bloke chasing you, if you have a 10m start when you get the ball...
![Idea :idea:](./images/smilies/icon_idea.gif)
Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...
Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.
So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?
Thoughts...?
It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me! -------Who?
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hAr ... detailpage
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hAr ... detailpage
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Dave McNamara wrote:I agree, the need for speed... leg speed vs ball movement speed... always an interesting one.True Believer wrote:Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:
PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington
IMHO a lack of outright speed can be offset defensively by concentrating hard on not giving the opposition's speedsters space, particularly goal-side.
And offensively... by hard and smart running... no matter how quick the bloke chasing you, if you have a 10m start when you get the ball...![]()
Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...
Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.
So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?
Thoughts...?
IMO only Steven has elite speed. Templeton and Newnes I would say have average speed. I dont think any you have mentioned in quick have anything more than average speed. Savage i would class a quick at best. Getting the ball is the most imprtant thing but in todays footy you cant have Dunstan, hayes, Ross, Weller, Curren and even Billings anywhere near the midfield at the same time. The problem is we have to because we have bugger all options with pace.
- Dave McNamara
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5709
- Joined: Wed 21 Sep 2011 2:44pm
- Location: Slotting another one from 94.5m out. Opposition flood? Bring it on...! Keep the faith Saintas!
- Has thanked: 80 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Newnes - I didn't think so myself, but have been told he's pretty quick(?)plugger66 wrote:IMO only Steven has elite speed. Templeton and Newnes I would say have average speed. I dont think any you have mentioned in quick have anything more than average speed. Savage i would class a quick at best. Getting the ball is the most imprtant thing but in todays footy you cant have Dunstan, hayes, Ross, Weller, Curren and even Billings anywhere near the midfield at the same time. The problem is we have to because we have bugger all options with pace.Dave McNamara wrote:Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...
Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.
So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?
Thoughts...?
Markworth - is very fast(?)
Webster - both closing speed, but also, remember when he ran past Jetta, and then ran away from him?
Billings - I didn't think he was quick, and whilst no Jack S, he has really surprised me a few times.
Curren - ain't no slouch either(?)
Dunstan, Hayes, Ross, Weller - I agree re the problem of having them all in the midfield together.
And welcome back from Purgatory (aka Big Vanila) to yourself Pluggs, and to Sting!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
It's Dave, man. Will you open up? I got the stuff with me! -------Who?
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hAr ... detailpage
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
Dave, man. Open up ------------------------------------------ -----Dave???
Yeah, Dave. ---------------------------------------------------------Dave's not here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiG1hAr ... detailpage
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1701
- Joined: Fri 18 May 2007 11:13am
- Been thanked: 7 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Agree ...bigcarl wrote:supersaints wrote: Probably think there are more pacy midfielders in the AFL than there are top shelf half back flankers
Not at St Kilda
And the president said " I did not have sex with that woman"
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
And our former president said " Football is like golf"
Go Sainters !!!!!
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.
Very insightful summation...
Very insightful summation...
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11322
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 12:57am
- Location: South of Heaven
- Has thanked: 1312 times
- Been thanked: 447 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Plugger being suspended didn't help our chances in the last four weeks.
Curb your enthusiasm - you’re a St.Kilda supporter!!
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/LkJcQq3.jpg?2)
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/LkJcQq3.jpg?2)
Re: 4 weeks of observations
A bit like GT
Subject to vitriol whilst there.... Missed in absence.... And sucked up to on return.
When Grant jumped on here a while back, some of the comments were amusing, gushing forumites chatting to someone important?!
If Ross jumped on here, many would blow a woofer valve
Subject to vitriol whilst there.... Missed in absence.... And sucked up to on return.
When Grant jumped on here a while back, some of the comments were amusing, gushing forumites chatting to someone important?!
If Ross jumped on here, many would blow a woofer valve
Re: 4 weeks of observations
BigMart wrote:A bit like GT
Subject to vitriol whilst there.... Missed in absence.... And sucked up to on return.
When Grant jumped on here a while back, some of the comments were amusing, gushing forumites chatting to someone important?!
If Ross jumped on here, many would blow a woofer valve
BM this is where you need to quote. i have no idea who you are speaking to or if you are even on the right thread because that comment doesnt seem to make sense in the context of the thread. Surely it is just polite to quote or at least tell us the name of who you are replying to. matter of fact i thought it was now a rule of the forum.
Re: 4 weeks of observations
You must quote?
Not sure that is a rule?
Just making a comment... If you don't understand it, you probably don't need to reply?
Not sure that is a rule?
Just making a comment... If you don't understand it, you probably don't need to reply?
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 10598
- Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
- Location: North
- Has thanked: 1011 times
- Been thanked: 1055 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
QUOTATION POLICYBigMart wrote:You must quote?
Not sure that is a rule?
When answering a specific post, the responding poster is encouraged to quote the post or the part of the post to which they are referencing, otherwise they must specify which poster they are referencing in the response.
Failure to identify the post or poster being addressed is considered a breach of forum etiquette and repeated failure will result in a Saintsational warning.
Any editing of a post when quoting another post that deliberately alters the meaning or intent of the original post is a breach of rules and will result in a Saintsational warning.
Re: 4 weeks of observations
Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?
Or
Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?
Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste
Or
Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?
Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste
Re: 4 weeks of observations
BigMart wrote:Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?
Or
Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?
Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste
I think when you mention something that has little to do with previous posts it makes it really confusing and probably off topic.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 10598
- Joined: Tue 14 Jun 2005 7:04pm
- Location: North
- Has thanked: 1011 times
- Been thanked: 1055 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
So with this post,BigMart wrote:Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?
Or
Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?
Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste
"Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.
Very insightful summation..."
It seems clear that you are referring to a specific post. Which one exactly is not at all clear.
- Spinner
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8502
- Joined: Sat 02 Dec 2006 3:40pm
- Location: Victoria
- Has thanked: 185 times
- Been thanked: 133 times
Re: 4 weeks of observations
st.byron wrote:So with this post,BigMart wrote:Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?
Or
Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?
Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste
"Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.
Very insightful summation..."
It seems clear that you are referring to a specific post. Which one exactly is not at all clear.
Finally.
Not quoting I believe is a tactic to create smoke and mirrors within one's posting.
Makes it hard to track and easy to deny.
Quoting allows posts to be referenced when they are referenced. Not create a sea a murky waters.
Glad to see it established as a new policy.
Good work team!