4 weeks of observations

[Old Mate]

When's the 4 weeks (downgraded to 2) of reflection thread coming out p66?

[bergholt]

Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first.

Agreed. The "speed" fixation is a furphy. Hawks midfielders aren't that fast, they're just quick enough and smart enough to be where the ball is. Same with the Swans mids. Geelong has never had a huge amount of pace through their midfield. Collingwood has a couple of quick ones but most of them are similar.

Look at the last few Brownlows. Up there are players like Selwood, Watson, Mitchell, Cotchin, Dal Santo, Boyd, Hayes, Pendlebury - none of them particularly fast. Judd and Dangerfield are a bit quicker, Ablett and Swan definitely fast but the majority of star midfielders aren't speedsters.

We just need guys who are smart enough to find the ball and skilled enough to use it well. Here's my view of the chances of our mids getting to a solid standard in a couple of years:

PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes
LIKELY: Saunders, Webster, Wright
MAYBE: Acres, Curren, Milera, Murdoch, Ross, Shenton, Templeton, Weller
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Markworth, Minchington, Savage

We need more probables. Hopefully over the remainder of this year a few of those maybes move up at least into the likely category. And maybe even a couple of the unlikelies move up. If not we're going to have an even longer rebuild.

But it really doesn't matter which of them have pace.

[Dis Believer]

Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first.

Agreed. The "speed" fixation is a furphy. Hawks midfielders aren't that fast, they're just quick enough and smart enough to be where the ball is. Same with the Swans mids. Geelong has never had a huge amount of pace through their midfield. Collingwood has a couple of quick ones but most of them are similar.

Look at the last few Brownlows. Up there are players like Selwood, Watson, Mitchell, Cotchin, Dal Santo, Boyd, Hayes, Pendlebury - none of them particularly fast. Judd and Dangerfield are a bit quicker, Ablett and Swan definitely fast but the majority of star midfielders aren't speedsters.

We just need guys who are smart enough to find the ball and skilled enough to use it well. Here's my view of the chances of our mids getting to a solid standard in a couple of years:

PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes
LIKELY: Saunders, Webster, Wright
MAYBE: Acres, Curren, Milera, Murdoch, Ross, Shenton, Templeton, Weller
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Markworth, Minchington, Savage

We need more probables. Hopefully over the remainder of this year a few of those maybes move up at least into the likely category. And maybe even a couple of the unlikelies move up. If not we're going to have an even longer rebuild.

But it really doesn't matter which of them have pace.

Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:

b]PROBABLE[/b]: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington

[Dis Believer]

It's that "maybe" group where we need to get some results, that will accelerate our improvement as a team......

[FQF]

Probably and likely mean the same thing.

Apart from that, how is Murdoch in the likely category when he can't break into the team? What's his position?

[Con Gorozidis]

I dont think anyone is saying 'speed maketh the player' we are saying based on our CURRENT list then speed and ball use are the two major factors we lack. Of course - Plenty of good players arent quick and read the play well but you need a balance in the side and we dont have that with our current list. So for our current needs with our list - its a weakness.

For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.

So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the bal. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the foorwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a dfence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.

[Con Gorozidis]

I dont think anyone is saying 'speed maketh the player' we are saying based on our CURRENT list then speed and ball use are the two major factors we lack. Of course - Plenty of good players arent quick and read the play well but you need a balance in the side and we dont have that with our current list. So for our current needs with our list - its a weakness.

For the Hawks guys like Rioli, HIll Shiels, Whitecross, Breust and Isaac Smith are all quick.
For Geelong Kelly, Stokes, Varcoe, Chrsietensen, Motlop are all quick.

So just like saying speed is no good when you cant get the ball. Its also no good when you win the ball and cant get the thing moving to your fwd line - which is where we are at. We get the ball - but it tends to get bogged down or go sideways or backways because we dont have anyone who get away from a pack and who can kick accurately to the fwd line. By the time we get it fwd the forwards are all covered. You can only bring panic to a defence when you move in quick and they get caught out of position. Thats what Geelong and the Hawks do regularly.

[plugger66]

Speed means nothing if you don't get the ball first. Too many of our mids are flat-footed and waiting for the ball to come out rather than initiating the play, and the look slow when trying to catch opponents. It drove me nuts against Hawthorn to see so many of our guys stand up to 10 metres from their opponents, who run and spread, and then we have no chance of catching up and applying pressure, and that's why we look slow and are down in possession counts- especially obvious against the Suns in the first half.

It's a coaching thing to fix this, but far too many of our players are watching the game and not their opponent. I watched Ablett around packs, and he was totally watching the ball at all times at ball ups, never took his eyes off it, while our guys were more busy looking at their opponents and trying to block.

Richo probably needs to let some of the guys play their natural games

Surely our coach knows this. Matter of fact i would be certain. There would be reasons we play as we do that none of us here would be qualified to know.

[Dave McNamara]

Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:

PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington

I agree, the need for speed... leg speed vs ball movement speed... always an interesting one.

IMHO a lack of outright speed can be offset defensively by concentrating hard on not giving the opposition's speedsters space, particularly goal-side.
And offensively... by hard and smart running... no matter how quick the bloke chasing you, if you have a 10m start when you get the ball...

Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...

Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.

So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?

Thoughts...?

[plugger66]

Good post. Let me help you getting a few more likely types:

PROBABLE: Billings, Dunstan, Newnes, Saunders, Webster, Wright
LIKELY: Acres, Murdoch, Templeton
MAYBE: Curren, Milera, Ross, Shenton, Weller, Markworth, Savage
UNLIKELY: Dunell, Minchington

I agree, the need for speed... leg speed vs ball movement speed... always an interesting one.

IMHO a lack of outright speed can be offset defensively by concentrating hard on not giving the opposition's speedsters space, particularly goal-side.
And offensively... by hard and smart running... no matter how quick the bloke chasing you, if you have a 10m start when you get the ball...

Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...

Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.

So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?

Thoughts...?

IMO only Steven has elite speed. Templeton and Newnes I would say have average speed. I dont think any you have mentioned in quick have anything more than average speed. Savage i would class a quick at best. Getting the ball is the most imprtant thing but in todays footy you cant have Dunstan, hayes, Ross, Weller, Curren and even Billings anywhere near the midfield at the same time. The problem is we have to because we have bugger all options with pace.

[Dave McNamara]

Anyway, here's an another version of the above list, this one based on assessed speed...

Elite: Steven, Webster(?), Markworth(?).
V quick: Wright, Saunders, Templeton(?), Newnes(?), Savage.
Quick: Curren, Shenton, Acres, Billings, Minchington, Milera (though not as quick as people think IMHO).
Ok: Weller, Dunell. Murdoch.
I'd be a chance against him: Ross.

So looking at that, and even allowing for adjustments (up or down) where I have it wrong... not so bad after all...?

Thoughts...?

IMO only Steven has elite speed. Templeton and Newnes I would say have average speed. I dont think any you have mentioned in quick have anything more than average speed. Savage i would class a quick at best. Getting the ball is the most imprtant thing but in todays footy you cant have Dunstan, hayes, Ross, Weller, Curren and even Billings anywhere near the midfield at the same time. The problem is we have to because we have bugger all options with pace.

Newnes - I didn't think so myself, but have been told he's pretty quick(?)
Markworth - is very fast(?)
Webster - both closing speed, but also, remember when he ran past Jetta, and then ran away from him?
Billings - I didn't think he was quick, and whilst no Jack S, he has really surprised me a few times.
Curren - ain't no slouch either(?)
Dunstan, Hayes, Ross, Weller - I agree re the problem of having them all in the midfield together.




And welcome back from Purgatory (aka Big Vanila) to yourself Pluggs, and to Sting!

[supersaints]

Probably think there are more pacy midfielders in the AFL than there are top shelf half back flankers

Not at St Kilda

Agree ...

[BigMart]

Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.

Very insightful summation...

[Sainternist]

Plugger being suspended didn't help our chances in the last four weeks.

[SainterK]

Hey plugs

[BigMart]

A bit like GT

Subject to vitriol whilst there.... Missed in absence.... And sucked up to on return.

When Grant jumped on here a while back, some of the comments were amusing, gushing forumites chatting to someone important?!

If Ross jumped on here, many would blow a woofer valve

[plugger66]

A bit like GT

Subject to vitriol whilst there.... Missed in absence.... And sucked up to on return.

When Grant jumped on here a while back, some of the comments were amusing, gushing forumites chatting to someone important?!

If Ross jumped on here, many would blow a woofer valve

BM this is where you need to quote. i have no idea who you are speaking to or if you are even on the right thread because that comment doesnt seem to make sense in the context of the thread. Surely it is just polite to quote or at least tell us the name of who you are replying to. matter of fact i thought it was now a rule of the forum.

[BigMart]

You must quote?

Not sure that is a rule?

Just making a comment... If you don't understand it, you probably don't need to reply?

[st.byron]

You must quote?

Not sure that is a rule?

QUOTATION POLICY

When answering a specific post, the responding poster is encouraged to quote the post or the part of the post to which they are referencing, otherwise they must specify which poster they are referencing in the response.

Failure to identify the post or poster being addressed is considered a breach of forum etiquette and repeated failure will result in a Saintsational warning.

Any editing of a post when quoting another post that deliberately alters the meaning or intent of the original post is a breach of rules and will result in a Saintsational warning.

[BigMart]

Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?

Or

Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?

Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste

[plugger66]

Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?

Or

Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?

Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste

I think when you mention something that has little to do with previous posts it makes it really confusing and probably off topic.

[st.byron]

Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?

Or

Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?

Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste

So with this post,
"Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.

Very insightful summation..."

It seems clear that you are referring to a specific post. Which one exactly is not at all clear.

[Spinner]

Who decides whether you're making a general comment or answering a specific post?

Or

Are all replies answers, therefore every post must have a quote?

Very silly
Repeating things is a time waste

So with this post,
"Couldn't resist a little cheap shot swipe... Hilarious.

Very insightful summation..."

It seems clear that you are referring to a specific post. Which one exactly is not at all clear.

Finally.

Not quoting I believe is a tactic to create smoke and mirrors within one's posting.

Makes it hard to track and easy to deny.

Quoting allows posts to be referenced when they are referenced. Not create a sea a murky waters.

Glad to see it established as a new policy.

Good work team!