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I just think his DNA is as much over the grannies as the players.
Of course it is. When did anyone say he is immune from that. many though think it was his fault but they didnt back then when he still coached us. It was only after he left that his coaching wasnt good enough. I would back RL match day coaching to be at least as good as anyone we played. I think anyone with any knowledge of footy could see that. Still made mistakes but no coach can coach in hindsight but a few of the posters are hindsight heroes.
Johnny Member wrote:Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.
Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.
Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.
No it was the toe poke.
Well that's what people talk about...
The toe poke often gets mentioned as it was right at the end of the game...same as the "Milne Bounce' a year later....and no different to any other close game where the last umpring , or player, "mistake" is dredged up. But virtually always there will be other more cumulative reasons for the loss.
In that GF the Saints dominated the first half, but player after player missed dead easy goals.
One thing you need to do in AFL is to score the goals when you are dominating, as sooner or later your opponent will get to have a crack too.
The players blew it.
Lyon may not have been perfect on the day, but no one is. But all those easy goals going begging in the first half by player, after player, is why we lost. Game should have been over at half time.
Yep, agree 100%. Low scoring, wet conditions, if we kick straight, definitely over by 1/2 time.
the decision that lost us noth grand finals was not to select Max in the 2009 version. It lost us 2009 because he was a better full back at the time than dawson and would have been worth two goals for ability and maybe another two goals for spirit. He lost us the 2010 GF because a shatter max retired, went to the pies and gave them the blueprint to beat Roo.
Ross was a very good coach for us but he had a massive blindspot when it came to players he recruited - which he overwhelmingly favoured over players that were recruited in the GT era or before. Hence the treatment of Max, Ball, Armitage vs the blind support of Eddy and Zac. Not that Zac was completely useless
elvis lives wrote:the decision that lost us noth grand finals was not to select Max in the 2009 version. It lost us 2009 because he was a better full back at the time than dawson and would have been worth two goals for ability and maybe another two goals for spirit. He lost us the 2010 GF because a shatter max retired, went to the pies and gave them the blueprint to beat Roo.
Ross was a very good coach for us but he had a massive blindspot when it came to players he recruited - which he overwhelmingly favoured over players that were recruited in the GT era or before. Hence the treatment of Max, Ball, Armitage vs the blind support of Eddy and Zac. Not that Zac was completely useless
Well that clearly a loss of memory. Zac was better than Max back then and proved it with his finals performance. RL played people that we thought werent great but we didnt have great depth but more importantly he relied on role players. Thats how he coached. Thats how we won 19 in a row when we were a 19 in a row side.
I don't disagree with your last statement. But if you are telling me that the 2009 versions of Ball and Armitage couldn't play whatever role R Eddy was playing then you have rocks in your head. The issue of who was a better full back in 2009 is subjective. I think Max was and also brought a huge amount of spirit to the team.
elvis lives wrote:I don't disagree with your last statement. But if you are telling me that the 2009 versions of Ball and Armitage couldn't play whatever role R Eddy was playing then you have rocks in your head. The issue of who was a better full back in 2009 is subjective. I think Max was and also brought a huge amount of spirit to the team.
Ball played so i dont get that. Armo was given 12 games in 2008 so RL was prepared to play him. He obviously didnt do what was required in 2009. Didnt we win these 19 games in a row with eddy playing and Armo not playing most of them.
I also disagree that he is a great match day coach, I reckon he leads all others in his preparation for match day....puts more emphasis in giving his players roles, structuring up in a certain way.
He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
SainterK wrote:Bit of underestimating the Cats in here huh...
Is any match over at half time against them?
Don't think so.
I also disagree that he is a great match day coach, I reckon he leads all others in his preparation for match day....puts more emphasis in giving his players roles, structuring up in a certain way.
He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
It took till until he told us he doesnt like us to find that out. I cant believe you missed the 2010 GF and i cant beleive we won 19 in a row with just a coach who didnt make moves during a game unless forced. we must have been the greatest side in the history of the game but that cant be true becuase we had all these hack role players playing for us.
I just think his DNA is as much over the grannies as the players.
Didn't say you were.
Of course Lyon had a major influence. My beef are those who try to equate a positional change here or there and then saying Lyon lost us the GF.
It is all based on the fact he is not the Saints coach anymore. Everyone takes responsibility for the loss not just the players, not just the coach, but everyone.
Who takes responsibility for our list nowdays?
Lyon.
Yes everyone.
That is what I'm trying to say.
The premise if this thread started because someone wanted to highlight one if these negatives.
Which is fair.
Well it seems we are in furious agreement
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
SainterK wrote:Bit of underestimating the Cats in here huh...
Is any match over at half time against them?
Don't think so.
I also disagree that he is a great match day coach, I reckon he leads all others in his preparation for match day....puts more emphasis in giving his players roles, structuring up in a certain way.
He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
Very much agree with this.
Brilliant 'preparer'. Very, very often is able to target the key player makers of other sides before other coaches latch on.
elvis lives wrote:the decision that lost us noth grand finals was not to select Max in the 2009 version. It lost us 2009 because he was a better full back at the time than dawson and would have been worth two goals for ability and maybe another two goals for spirit. He lost us the 2010 GF because a shatter max retired, went to the pies and gave them the blueprint to beat Roo.
Ross was a very good coach for us but he had a massive blindspot when it came to players he recruited - which he overwhelmingly favoured over players that were recruited in the GT era or before. Hence the treatment of Max, Ball, Armitage vs the blind support of Eddy and Zac. Not that Zac was completely useless
Max could barely get on and stay on the park in 09. Would have been a huge risk to play him.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
SainterK wrote:Bit of underestimating the Cats in here huh...
Is any match over at half time against them?
Don't think so.
I also disagree that he is a great match day coach, I reckon he leads all others in his preparation for match day....puts more emphasis in giving his players roles, structuring up in a certain way.
He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
Very much agree with this.
Brilliant 'preparer'. Very, very often is able to target the key player makers of other sides before other coaches latch on.
Knows how to stop other teams.
Game day though - I think he is lacking.
Is that based on all the games he seems to lose during the course of play or just opinion like your supposed stats that were just made up? He must be the first coach in history that can help win 19 in a row when he lacks as a match day coach. Why do you think people who really understand footy in the media rate him? I dont think its because he is one of the boys or just a laugh a minute. maybe they have us covered for knowledge of the game and actually know what they are talking about.
Johnny Member wrote:Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.
Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.
Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.
The main problem with Ball going to Collingwood was that he took our game plan with him and handed it straight to Malthouse. It also didn't help with Max H. there as well.
elvis lives wrote:the decision that lost us noth grand finals was not to select Max in the 2009 version. It lost us 2009 because he was a better full back at the time than dawson and would have been worth two goals for ability and maybe another two goals for spirit. He lost us the 2010 GF because a shatter max retired, went to the pies and gave them the blueprint to beat Roo.
Ross was a very good coach for us but he had a massive blindspot when it came to players he recruited - which he overwhelmingly favoured over players that were recruited in the GT era or before. Hence the treatment of Max, Ball, Armitage vs the blind support of Eddy and Zac. Not that Zac was completely useless
Max could barely get on and stay on the park in 09. Would have been a huge risk to play him.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
I just realized how much I miss The Fox Report.
BigMart just doesn't have the same oomph as Roger when it comes to bagging out the Club.
Maybe it's time for Roger to lift the veil and resume his place on here?
spert wrote:When we pull out our AFL history book, there's no mention of how close, or if only the bounce went the other way, or various other excuses etc...it shows who won the premiership that year or any year, and who was the coach- the coach of the premiership team, and they are rated as top coaches- that's all that counts. Let's move on
My book gives me the scores. You need a better book.
Apparently the team with the winning score gets the premiership..could be 10 goals up or 1 point..nobody cares about the loser or their coach.
Mr Magic wrote:I just realized how much I miss The Fox Report.
BigMart just doesn't have the same oomph as Roger when it comes to bagging out the Club.
Maybe it's time for Roger to lift the veil and resume his place on here?
Pretty confident he is contributing to this thread...
elvis lives wrote:I don't disagree with your last statement. But if you are telling me that the 2009 versions of Ball and Armitage couldn't play whatever role R Eddy was playing then you have rocks in your head. The issue of who was a better full back in 2009 is subjective. I think Max was and also brought a huge amount of spirit to the team.
max was ten times the footballer than that gilie girl zac will ever be...he handballed straight into a cats hands in the goal square ffs...cost us dearly.....take that away and the goal that was really a point ...and we win...i don't count the goal kicked after the siren.....there was nobody on the mark and the handbagger ran over the mark....wasn't a goal imho.....
i'm going from memory though as i have never watched a reply of any of our grand final losses ...and never will......
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
elvis lives wrote:I don't disagree with your last statement. But if you are telling me that the 2009 versions of Ball and Armitage couldn't play whatever role R Eddy was playing then you have rocks in your head. The issue of who was a better full back in 2009 is subjective. I think Max was and also brought a huge amount of spirit to the team.
max was ten times the footballer than that gilie girl zac will ever be...he handballed straight into a cats hands in the goal square ffs...cost us dearly.....take that away and the goal that was really a point ...and we win...i don't count the goal kicked after the siren.....there was nobody on the mark and the handbagger ran over the mark....wasn't a goal imho.....
i'm going from memory though as i have never watched a reply of any of our grand final losses ...and never will......
Girlie zac. How old are you? Zac was much better than Max in 2009. Its funny thats everyone who says he wasnt just refuses to accept Zac got player of our finals series.
Re Ross, point is: if you run the team into the ground trying to win a GF, don't develop the youngsters, recruit a small army of other club rejects, stuff up with Lovett, and cheese off a sizable chunk of team stalwarts (Ball, Hudghton, Maguire, etc.) ... if you do all that, and still don't win a flag, then by God you should have the integrity to stick around and see it through. When the club is offering you a generous contract (non-provisional on making the finals), that is.
Nope. He bailed out and headed for greener pastures citing all sorts of rationalisations.
So when does Freo arrive at the same place that St Kilda was at in 2011? Maybe 2015? The second last year of Ross's contract? Be interesting to see if he bails out again.
Waltzing St Kilda wrote:Re Ross, point is: if you run the team into the ground trying to win a GF, don't develop the youngsters, recruit a small army of other club rejects, stuff up with Lovett, and cheese off a sizable chunk of team stalwarts (Ball, Hudghton, Maguire, etc.) ... if you do all that, and still don't win a flag, then by God you should have the integrity to stick around and see it through. When the club is offering you a generous contract (non-provisional on making the finals), that is.
Nope. He bailed out and headed for greener pastures citing all sorts of rationalisations.
So when does Freo arrive at the same place that St Kilda was at in 2011? Maybe 2015? The second last year of Ross's contract? Be interesting to see if he bails out again.
Why would we want to hope a guy hangs around who as you put it didnt develop players. recruit a small army from other clubs rejects, stuff up with Lovett and get rid of stalwarts? If I felt that way i would so happy he left.
SainterK wrote: Bit of underestimating the Cats in here huh...
Is any match over at half time against them?
Don't think so.
But if it is Lyon's mistakes, how is that all other clubs have this problem?
SainterK wrote:
I also disagree that he is a great match day coach, I reckon he leads all others in his preparation for match day....puts more emphasis in giving his players roles, structuring up in a certain way.
He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
Footy is a % game.
Trying to win by having a plan is likely to be a lot more successful over trying to win most games by relying on "masterstroke" moves on each matchday.
All teams play team oriented football, and team play is the path to success. Relying on reactive moves made-up each match day will be very hard on the players.
SainterK wrote: He rarely makes match day moves, unless forced, he backs in his plan.
And why would any coach not do this?
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
Waltzing St Kilda wrote:Re Ross, point is: if you run the team into the ground trying to win a GF, don't develop the youngsters, recruit a small army of other club rejects, stuff up with Lovett, and cheese off a sizable chunk of team stalwarts (Ball, Hudghton, Maguire, etc.) ... if you do all that, and still don't win a flag, then by God you should have the integrity to stick around and see it through. When the club is offering you a generous contract (non-provisional on making the finals), that is.
Nope. He bailed out and headed for greener pastures citing all sorts of rationalisations.
So when does Freo arrive at the same place that St Kilda was at in 2011? Maybe 2015? The second last year of Ross's contract? Be interesting to see if he bails out again.
Why would we want to hope a guy hangs around who as you put it didnt develop players. recruit a small army from other clubs rejects, stuff up with Lovett and get rid of stalwarts? If I felt that way i would so happy he left.
Stability. Consistency. A couple of things the Saints haven't been famous for.
For all his flaws (and for that matter his strengths), I wanted to believe Ross was 100% committed to the club. I wanted to believe he had great integrity. His actions proved otherwise.
