Pick 1 on the table

[suss]

Realisticly though would they take McEvoy & Pick 3 for Pick 1??

Why the hell would you trade pick 3 AND a developing ruckman for pick 1?

I'd swap Benny and pick 3 for picks 1 and 10. They would still get a gun mid for pick 3 and a mature ruckman. We get Boyd and a really good mid and have Hickey to plug the gap.

[SinCitySainter]

McEvoy and Gilbert maybe doubt it would be enough to get #1.
McEvoy and Pick 3/4 is too much for Pick 1.
What they will want is big bodies, they already have silky skills but they get too easily pushed off the ball.
The gut runners are less important to them as that will come with a couple of pre-seasons.
I would think that the players that would most interest GWS from us would be McEvoy, Gilbert, Dempster, Armo and maybe Fisher (but may be a bit long in the the tooth).
Stanley and Hickey are both tall enough to interest them but neither is strong enough at this stage.

[stinger]

by the end of the year we will be 17th on the ladder.......second last ffs....there is no one on our list gws would be even remotely interested in imho......

[plugger66]

by the end of the year we will be 17th on the ladder.......second last ffs....there is no one on our list gws would be even remotely interested in imho......

Well thats clearly not true. it s like when people say melbourne were below us so they wouldnt have players we want. GWS would love Steven, Ben probably Armo, maybe gilbert and Fisher. We on the other hand should only want to lose fisher from that group baring a trade we cant refuse.

[Richter]

Clearly you only see the highlights of other teams or read the Herald Sun hit out stats, and don't watch them as closely as you watch Ben... Bellchambers was playing 2's a fortnight ago... Warnock's played 2's his whole career...

The ones in bold are either not as good as Ben due to being: too old and washed up (McIntoch, Jolly), injury prone (Mumford), too young to know (Smith) or just crap (Warnock and most others bolded)...

Ben is in the best half dozen rucks in the league, and top 2/3 in around the ground work.. And is 23 years old and will not be playing his best footy for a further 3 years... FACT..

How is Jacobs playing this year??... What would you have done with Minson when he was 23 and playing for Werribee?? He is 28 now and finally hitting his straps...

People have no idea when it come to ruckman, and the fascination with tap outs is ridiculous... Most useless stat in footy...

Yes, it is true that I see more of Ben than I see of the others. I don't mind him as a player, but I simply don't see him as being anything more than a GOP... which in a ruckman I don't mind. But I get the sense that many out there (clearly including P66 and yourself) value him much more highly than I (and many others) believe he is worth. St Kilda could leverage that difference if the GWS people were of the same midframe as you and P66.

For around the ground work I would put Cox, Natanui, Pyke and Ryder ahead of McEvoy, and Kreuzer about level with him. Ben fills a defensive hole well (reference his game against Carlton) but is ordinary as a forward marking target - Bellchambers,

Point is if we could get the top ten pick we paid for him back to spend on a mid, I believe that we could easily pick up a replacement who would produce the same output for much lower outlay i.e with a pick above 30 for instance.

Taking some examples using this season's stats

McE vs Mumford - Ben has had 2 more disposals per game, but 5 fewer hitouts; Ben cost a #9 pick whilst Mumford cost #28
McE vs Jacobs - Ben has had 1 more disp but 9 fewer hitouts; Ben cost a #9 pick whilst Jacobs cost #34 and #67
McE vs Bellchambers - Ben has had 3 more disposals but 3 less hitouts and 1.2 fwer goals per game than Bellchambers

Bellchambers is clearly behind Ryder who is one of the league's top 3 ruckmen (alongside Cox and Natanui IMO) - so would Ben if he were at Essendon. Bellchambers was picked up in the PSD!

Sure none of these guys I'm comparing Ben with are A graders... that is not my point... my point is that neither is Ben... only ones who are - Cox, Natanui and Ryder.

[Buckets]

Fisher and Gilbert and hell throw in Ray as well for good measure....

[plugger66]

Fisher and Gilbert and hell throw in Ray as well for good measure....

Does pick 20, 30 and 40 get you pick one. I doubt it especially as the pick 20 is injured and old. The only one i have seen and dont agree with it is ben and pick 3 for pick one and we may get another pick back at us.

[maverick]

Why don't we just tank for the rest of the year instead?

[stinger]

Why don't we just tank for the rest of the year instead?

we don't need to tank to lose....

[maverick]

Why don't we just tank for the rest of the year instead?

we don't need to tank to lose....

I actually thought we were

[Sobraz]

Sure none of these guys I'm comparing Ben with are A graders... that is not my point... my point is that neither is Ben... only ones who are - Cox, Natanui and Ryder.

Well argued and I take your point, however Ben still has 2-3 years before he hits his straps, at which point he will be at the level of those 3 you mentioned, IMO...

Add Minson to that list, and you have the 4 best rucks in the comp right now.. Natanui being the only one under 25, who we can all agree is a once in a lifetime athletic freak..

2 years ago, Ryder was in the wilderness... Massively inconsistent, and questions about realising his potential... Minson was laughed at... Cox started as a Rookie who showed a bit but exploded once he matured...

McEvoy has shown, to me at least, he has the tools to mature into one of, if not number one, best rucks in the comp by 2016... And at the very elite level, a gun ruckman is super important...

[matrix]

so melb have to play gws gold coast and the dogs still (being games they should possibly win)
with our maybe wins over lions and gold coast

going to be interesting come round 20ish onwards

[SainterK]

I reckon Buddy is going to the gold coast...

[plugger66]

I reckon Buddy is going to the gold coast...

I reckon they dont have the money. And he wont get the AFL payment as Ablett would have that to promote the game up there.

[Richter]

Sure none of these guys I'm comparing Ben with are A graders... that is not my point... my point is that neither is Ben... only ones who are - Cox, Natanui and Ryder.

Well argued and I take your point, however Ben still has 2-3 years before he hits his straps, at which point he will be at the level of those 3 you mentioned, IMO...

Add Minson to that list, and you have the 4 best rucks in the comp right now.. Natanui being the only one under 25, who we can all agree is a once in a lifetime athletic freak..

2 years ago, Ryder was in the wilderness... Massively inconsistent, and questions about realising his potential... Minson was laughed at... Cox started as a Rookie who showed a bit but exploded once he matured...

McEvoy has shown, to me at least, he has the tools to mature into one of, if not number one, best rucks in the comp by 2016... And at the very elite level, a gun ruckman is super important...

Fair enough, and of course you are right to say that age-wise big Mac should be coming in to his prime over the next 5 years. Let's hope he does get up there.

Tbh the reason why I don't really advocate him going is because his leadership and the message that it sends to others in the group. We want to keep decent players who are good blokes at our club as that is the fabric that really makes a footy club tick. I am quite sure that if we pissed him off to GWS (which would be against his wishes I'm sure) then other players would be weighing up their options too.

Players like Ben, Jimmy Gwilt, Gears and Armo are the emerging leaders at our club and will be vital in helping the club adjust to the major retirements of top clubmen in the next 5 years.

[MCG-Unit]

Realisticly though would they (GWS) take McEvoy & Pick 3 for Pick 1??

I would Never do that deal, Saints paying way overs. Rather keep McEvoy and put efforts into getting players they need - a tall back and an inside type mid.....

If there's no Fair trade on the table - keep the draft picks and go for kids.

[noob]

What about Armitage and a second rounder? We really don't have anything worth while.

[gringo]

We would probably take Boyd at one and the way we are going we will probably get pick 2 and they won't take him on top of Buddy, Patton and Cameron. They could then take Ben from us for us to have the same choice we would have made anyway.

[maverick]

by the end of the year we will be 17th on the ladder.......second last ffs....there is no one on our list gws would be even remotely interested in imho......

Well thats clearly not true. it s like when people say melbourne were below us so they wouldnt have players we want. GWS would love Steven, Ben probably Armo, maybe gilbert and Fisher. We on the other hand should only want to lose fisher from that group baring a trade we cant refuse.

What if they offer pick 10 and upgrade our pick 3/4 for 1 ?
Would you take that?
I reckon Ben is a perfect fit for them, right age, right experience.

[gringo]

Comes down to how highly you rate rucks. Richmond got in Maric cheap and he has been more effective than big mac. I would get in Tom Bellchambers instead if we could. Do Essendon a favour and get some cap space for them. Tate Pears if he's not banned too?

[suss]

by the end of the year we will be 17th on the ladder.......second last ffs....there is no one on our list gws would be even remotely interested in imho......

Well thats clearly not true. it s like when people say melbourne were below us so they wouldnt have players we want. GWS would love Steven, Ben probably Armo, maybe gilbert and Fisher. We on the other hand should only want to lose fisher from that group baring a trade we cant refuse.

What if they offer pick 10 and upgrade our pick 3/4 for 1 ?
Would you take that?
I reckon Ben is a perfect fit for them, right age, right experience.

Some jerk suggested that earlier in the thread. I like. Effectively they get Ben for pick 10 plus a bit more. We get Boyd, plus a good mid at #10, plus a good mid at #22-ish. We replace Ben with Hickey as our key ruckman which solves the curiosity of drafting Hickey to begin. We get Brown for next to nothing and all of a sudden the future is rosy ...

[plugger66]

Well thats clearly not true. it s like when people say melbourne were below us so they wouldnt have players we want. GWS would love Steven, Ben probably Armo, maybe gilbert and Fisher. We on the other hand should only want to lose fisher from that group baring a trade we cant refuse.

What if they offer pick 10 and upgrade our pick 3/4 for 1 ?
Would you take that?
I reckon Ben is a perfect fit for them, right age, right experience.

Some jerk suggested that earlier in the thread. I like. Effectively they get Ben for pick 10 plus a bit more. We get Boyd, plus a good mid at #10, plus a good mid at #22-ish. We replace Ben with Hickey as our key ruckman which solves the curiosity of drafting Hickey to begin. We get Brown for next to nothing and all of a sudden the future is rosy ...

Is that Hickey who hasnt done anything yet. And it again puts a gap in our age profile which Pelchan had said quite often is a problem. And why do they have pick 10 anyway?

[mightysainters]

McEvoy and pick 4 for pick 1... get it done... it's what GWS are looking for..

They don't want Boyd, but know others are desperate for him.. They want a gun mid which they will get with pick 4 and get a 'good' ruckamn in return..

Boyd is the next big thing... lets get him

[plugger66]

McEvoy and pick 4 for pick 1... get it done... it's what GWS are looking for..

They don't want Boyd, but know others are desperate for him.. They want a gun mid which they will get with pick 4 and get a 'good' ruckamn in return..

Boyd is the next big thing... lets get him

It might be pick 2 or 3. Even ifs it not get it done. Is this the GWS forum. I seriously thought I was on the saints forum.

[Sobraz]

Whats the point of getting Boyd if there's no one to kick it to him?

A forward line of Mooney, Hawkins (who at that stage was barely a GOP) and or Pods as the key posts has won 3 flags in the last 6 years...

Melbourne have Mitch Clarke, who IMO is an excellent forward, and couldnt win a game last year (or this year, when he's played) as the ball hardly went down there...

It's the rotation of mids that defines success these days... Weight of numbers of effective inside 50's and goals will come... Let the Bulldogs trade their best mid in Griffen for Boyd, and we'll take Aish or whoever it is that best plays on ball...