Delistings and retirements

[big_mac_evoy5]

bit harsh on CROCKER i have watched a few of his games i would give him another year. considering one its his seond year, two he missed 90% of last year and three he is the type of player who could replace gram or play in the midfield he is quick and has great skills. the only two bit problems he has is he needs to find the gym and two really needs to follow lenny around and get an AFL type fittness base. he has some good trates and isn't worth getting rid of. i like the fact his two big weaknesses could be come a strength in 6 months of hard work.
winmar is nearly out of chance i really liked him as a palyer early on but has failed to make the next step although he has had a lot of small injuries he can't stay on the list forwever and not play senior footy.

[savatage]

He doesn't know how to find the football so we never get to see his superboot. That's a big problem! You can't teach that.

[ROLS-LEE]

Gram, Goddard and NDS should never play in the backline, due to they have no defensive side especially one out. All should play centre or forward of centre

gram played in the backline with a defensive role for most of the second half of the season, and did a pretty good job.

who did he play on?, who did he beat one out?. Gram not good man on man in a markimg or defending a marking contest. He did have agood second half though
Dal is below avg above his shoulders as well and when heavy tagged needs to go deep forward. No point his tag kicking goals on him al la Ling when going defence.
Goodard only likes to play loose and not accountable.

[gringo]

Gram isn't a one on one defender he is the opposite to a defensive forward -an offensive back I guess. Both Shaws, O Brien, etc all play more as rebounders there isn't anything wrong with the way Gram plays. The hysteria around him after one bad season where he seemed to struggle with a groin injury seems like a bunch of idiotic villagers hunting down witches. Perhaps they need to burn him to check wether he can play - someone get the waverley goal posts out.

[Ghost Like]

Just out of interest, was/is Dustin Fletcher a power defender as we call it?

Fletcher generally takes the third tall and plays off them. We already have a plethora of players suited to doing that and Ferguson is another. We need someone to take Cloke, J Riewoldt, J Brown, Pavlich, Waite, Kennedy etc. We need a Glass, Rutten or McPharlin type, not Fletcher.

I'm pretty sure before Fletcher celebrated his 50th birthday and started taking the 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th dangerous forward, tall or short, he was given some reasonable sized forwards in his teens & early 20's, blokes like Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett Snr, Richardson, Gehrig, Fevola etc

[Eastern]

Would the B & F next Wednesday be the ideal time to announce any/all retirements, de-listings and Goddards intentions? !!

[Bernard Shakey]

CJ will be delisted.

crap...do you want to put money on that sunshine?????

CJ stays -according to Watters at his press conference after the Carlton game. Said he sees a role for CJ next year. Can't see him publicly saying that and then delisting him.

Watters must be a genius if he thinks he can teach a player who will be 29 before next season to kick and handball. The time of the tagger is over, so I'm really looking forward to see what roll Scott has for CJ next year, maybe waterboy?

[Bernard Shakey]

Gram isn't a one on one defender he is the opposite to a defensive forward -an offensive back I guess. Both Shaws, O Brien, etc all play more as rebounders there isn't anything wrong with the way Gram plays. The hysteria around him after one bad season where he seemed to struggle with a groin injury seems like a bunch of idiotic villagers hunting down witches. Perhaps they need to burn him to check wether he can play - someone get the waverley goal posts out.

He only has one way of playing, Bomb it as high and far as he can. Great when it goes through the goals, unfortunately it generall comes straight back, which is why he gets so many possessions. We had a back pocket who did exactly the same back in the '80s, Jeff Dunne.

[ROLS-LEE]

Gram isn't a one on one defender he is the opposite to a defensive forward -an offensive back I guess. Both Shaws, O Brien, etc all play more as rebounders there isn't anything wrong with the way Gram plays. The hysteria around him after one bad season where he seemed to struggle with a groin injury seems like a bunch of idiotic villagers hunting down witches. Perhaps they need to burn him to check wether he can play - someone get the waverley goal posts out.

I dont have a problem with Gram. He is a good player. I believe he can be found out down back. Wing forward flank is where I would have him.

[saintbob]

Delistings:
Gram
Clarke
Archer
Winmar
Jones

Retirements:
Everyone have the same two in mind, but both may play on depending on what we pick up in the draft

[hotdish]

Watters has officially stated this week that Gram, Jones and Kossi will be at the club next year.

Looks like Clarke, Polo and Peake are 100% done.

[sax]

Retire
Jason Blake

Delist (incl Rookies)
Sam Crocker
Nick Winmar
Dean Polo
Brett Peake
Raphael Clarke
Daniel Archer (R)
Warwick Andreoli (R)
Cameron Shenton (R)

Elevate
Tom Curren
Jackson Ferguson
Sam Dunnell

Retain
Jordan Staley
Darren Minchington

Tradeables (not incl free agents)
Clinton Jones
Farren Ray
Tom Ledger

[Teflon]

Why trade Leger?

[SainterK]

I think this is fair, Kosi will be required, but his spot isn't a walk up and he needs to earn a spot.

That's all I wanted, good for him, good for the kids who need depth pushing for their spot when it's their turn.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

ST KILDA coach Scott Watters has guaranteed Justin Koschitzke's place at the club next season.

Koschitzke, soon to turn 30 and an out-of-contract unrestricted free agent, sat out the Saints' final two games of the season after a quiet performance against Geelong in round 21.

But Watters said the key forward still had a role to play.

"He's a required player," Watters told Melbourne radio station 1116 SEN on Tuesday morning.

"He offers really good leadership.

"We've got some young key forwards - Rhys Stanley and Jay Lever - who are coming through, and the work that 'Kosi' has done behind the scenes with Rhys this year … he won't get a lot of plaudits for that from the outside, but internally he's done a great job.

"He's in a challenge for his spot going forward, as is Adam Schneider, who had some injuries this year.

"But they're quality players, and it needs to be a challenging environment.

"So I would expect 'Kosi' to back up with a really strong pre-season and challenge for a spot."

[stkildathunda]

bit harsh on CROCKER i have watched a few of his games i would give him another year. considering one its his seond year, two he missed 90% of last year and three he is the type of player who could replace gram or play in the midfield he is quick and has great skills. the only two bit problems he has is he needs to find the gym and two really needs to follow lenny around and get an AFL type fittness base. he has some good trates and isn't worth getting rid of. i like the fact his two big weaknesses could be come a strength in 6 months of hard work.
winmar is nearly out of chance i really liked him as a palyer early on but has failed to make the next step although he has had a lot of small injuries he can't stay on the list forwever and not play senior footy.

Crocker is averaging about 7 disposals in the Development League. Averages about same in limited senior games. He might be good kick but he just doesn't have it in him to make t. If he is still on list there is something terribly wrong.

At least Winmar had turned his form around since beig dropped to Dev Squad. Averages went up from 9 to about 17 since returning to seniors.

[dragit]

What I am hearing from Watters:

Some areshole has written up ridiculous contracts which have clauses for 3 players which I would love to get rid of, so regardless of what I want, they have to be here next year, I may as well put a good spin on it and keep the PR all happy and shiney… though it's fair to say that we will have more than enough orange-boys next season

[MrCordz]

Kosi should play Sandy most of next year - be a back up only.
Blake should continue
Goddard will Go
Also gone:
Peake, Clarke, Polo, Crocker, Archer
Elevate: Shenton, Dunnell, Ferguson

[saintly]

Kosi should play Sandy most of next year - be a back up only.
Blake should continue
Goddard will Go
Also gone:
Peake, Clarke, Polo, Crocker, Archer
Elevate: Shenton, Dunnell, Ferguson

I think you'd elevate Curren first.
Blake should retire if get a another backman

[Teflon]

The worry for me is we get delusional, pretend this same core/experienced group unchanged will somehow morph 3 seasons back in terms of form and so we don't change things up enough.

When I hear Blake wants to go on, Kosi, Jones.... I start to wonder if we are prepared to make the tough call.

TBH part of me feels that if we don't deal for some of the experienced group now (no not all of them SOME) we will miss a massive opportunity in future when we are likely to challenge again.

I want us to be careful in who we remove but at the same time if you don't take a risk the returns are limited.

Put another way, if we remove only the Peakes, Polo's, Clarkes ... then I'd be concerned we are hanging to much on to past player glories.

[Little Dozer]

The worry for me is we get delusional, pretend this same core/experienced group unchanged will somehow morph 3 seasons back in terms of form and so we don't change things up enough.

When I hear Blake wants to go on, Kosi, Jones.... I start to wonder if we are prepared to make the tough call.

TBH part of me feels that if we don't deal for some of the experienced group now (no not all of them SOME) we will miss a massive opportunity in future when we are likely to challenge again.

I want us to be careful in who we remove but at the same time if you don't take a risk the returns are limited.

Put another way, if we remove only the Peakes, Polo's, Clarkes ... then I'd be concerned we are hanging to much on to past player glories.

Gary Ayres would agree.

[dragit]

The worry for me is we get delusional, pretend this same core/experienced group unchanged will somehow morph 3 seasons back in terms of form and so we don't change things up enough.

When I hear Blake wants to go on, Kosi, Jones.... I start to wonder if we are prepared to make the tough call.

TBH part of me feels that if we don't deal for some of the experienced group now (no not all of them SOME) we will miss a massive opportunity in future when we are likely to challenge again.

I want us to be careful in who we remove but at the same time if you don't take a risk the returns are limited.

Put another way, if we remove only the Peakes, Polo's, Clarkes ... then I'd be concerned we are hanging to much on to past player glories.

Gary Ayres would agree.

I think Watters & Pelchen would too… hopefully.

I think we have to bite the bullet and lose a good player (dal, joey, bj ilk) if we are serious about trying to mount for another flag in a few years. Sure it would hurt in the short term, seeing one of our favourites in another jumper… but it will hurt more to watch us flounder around 6th-12th for the next decade so that we could watch our past champions all retire together, ruing the ones that got away (09/10)

Paul Roos was talking about this 'on the couch' a few weeks ago, how he sat down with the senior players and said "for us to move forward and challenge, we have to trade out some good players to rejuvinate the list." Everyone understood and agreed that the club was more important than the individuals and they accepted that any of them may be traded if the right deals came up. Surely our guys would feel the same if it really was best for the club?

I reckon they have seen BJ potentially leaving as an easy way to get a really good pick in a strong draft while freeing up some salary cap space, in a sense it would be perfect as the club wouldn't be seen to be offloading a favourite son.

Potential premiership success over retaining "all" of our great 30 year olds has to be the preference - surely… And don't tell me that an extra first round pick in this years draft isn't going to help us in the long term?

[sax]

Why trade Leger?

Didn't say trade him, just put him on the table.

I hate to say it, the kid has no awareness!

[spert]

If we can't win a flag in three consecutive goes, then a coach should be looking at the weaknesses, and addressing those weaknesses in the playing list and this all comes down to recruiting. I would definately look at trading off NDS and Montagna, and trying to pick up a gut-running mid. Too many players in their late 20s haven't got us over the line in a GF, and it really should be slash and burn time to build for the future.

[Royston]

Why trade Leger?

Didn't say trade him, just put him on the table.

I hate to say it, the kid has no awareness!

I thought the same - haven't seen any Sandy games or much of his time at senior level but was amazed at the lack of awareness.

Either that or he overrates how quick he is....

[defacto]

Retire
Jason Blake

Delist (incl Rookies)
Sam Crocker
Nick Winmar
Dean Polo
Brett Peake
Raphael Clarke
Daniel Archer (R)
Warwick Andreoli (R)
Cameron Shenton (R)

Elevate
Tom Curren
Jackson Ferguson
Sam Dunnell

Retain
Jordan Staley
Darren Minchington

Tradeables (not incl free agents)
Clinton Jones
Farren Ray
Tom Ledger

how many VFL games did you see this year?