GT busted on Footy Classified

[rodgerfox]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this, .

Remember Luke Penny and GT's crack at him for refusing to play on under GT despite a debilitating injury?

Luke went with the medical advice.

Remember the Cat's game when Kosi was played?

I prefer the current approach of if in doubt, don't play them.

GT didn't make the call on any of their availabilities though.

The medicos did.

Once cleared to play, they played.


I still to this day, don't see how this type of thing is attributed to GT.


And just on the Kosi thing, I'm interested in which areas people agree with Lyon on, in terms of him being mismanaged.

It seems as though the docs cleared him too early when he'd hurt his back way back in 2001.

But after that, he busted his elbow attacking a pack, got crunched and busted his head, then ran into an umpire head and busted his tooth.

How could any of this be managed better? Assuming of course, this is what Lyon is referring to.

[rodgerfox]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this, .

Remember Luke Penny and GT's crack at him for refusing to play on under GT despite a debilitating injury?

Luke went with the medical advice.

Remember the Cat's game when Kosi was played?

I prefer the current approach of if in doubt, don't play them.

It was conflicting medical advice to that of the club though.

Not sure why you're bringing the Penny situation up. It's a perfect example of the club's docs making calls and the club and coach listening to them.

[rodgerfox]

I expressing my view that perhaps it is incorrect to assume RL was having a crack at GT, and defending our coach from yet another baseless attack.

My 3 subsequent posts were attempts at, and requests for clarification... if you can explain how they were inflammatory or attacking in any way I'd be amazed.

To save any further misunderstanding I suggest you go back and read what was actually written.

"Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad."


In your very first post, you've used sarcasm to suggest people motives for partaking in this discussion, then followed it up with descriptive words such as 'lame', 'tired', 'boring' and 'sad'.



Fair dinkum Markp, this is pretty ordinary on your behalf.

If you can't partake in a discussion, just stay out of it.

[barks4eva]

But I'll henceforth try to keep my views to myself: I think it's better that way.

Agree wholeheartedly and considering you made many derogatory, misinformed, naive comments about Ross Lyon and furthermore wanted him sacked and replaced with Bundy who you rate as a tactical genius, on a weekly basis up until mid 2008, I think perhaps that this would be a good call by you, had to happen sometime, because it's become blatantly obvious by now, you would not get a drum even with a tribal zulu war dance party up you!

[markp]

I expressing my view that perhaps it is incorrect to assume RL was having a crack at GT, and defending our coach from yet another baseless attack.

My 3 subsequent posts were attempts at, and requests for clarification... if you can explain how they were inflammatory or attacking in any way I'd be amazed.

To save any further misunderstanding I suggest you go back and read what was actually written.

"Any excuse to have a crack at our current coach is a good one I guess....

Lame, tired, boring... sad."


In your very first post, you've used sarcasm to suggest people motives for partaking in this discussion, then followed it up with descriptive words such as 'lame', 'tired', 'boring' and 'sad'.



Fair dinkum Markp, this is pretty ordinary on your behalf.

If you can't partake in a discussion, just stay out of it.

Nice selective quoting there....

What about those "subsequent 3 posts" that are so inflammatory...?

You really are clutching at straws... it's pretty bizarre, really.

Dodge, get over yourself.

[saintsRrising]

Unless and until I see evidence that GT ever forced a player to play against medical advice, or that he forced them into a training regime that damaged them, or something like this, .

Remember Luke Penny and GT's crack at him for refusing to play on under GT despite a debilitating injury?

Luke went with the medical advice.

Remember the Cat's game when Kosi was played?

I prefer the current approach of if in doubt, don't play them.

It was conflicting medical advice to that of the club though.

Maybe the penny will drop?????

And great advice too..with GT offering Penny a very long-term contract.

Not sure why you're bringing the Penny situation up. It's a perfect example of the club's docs making calls and the club and coach listening to them.

It's actually a perfect example of the then player conditioning, medical and fitness department not being up to scratch and where the player Luke Penny had the good sense to go with other advice.

Such poor advice was symptomatic of the period.

If Kosi felt equally aggrieved it would not surprise me one iota.

[rodgerfox]

Nice selective quoting there....

What about those "subsequent 3 posts" that are so inflammatory...?

You really are clutching at straws... it's pretty bizarre, really.

Dodge, get over yourself.

Let it go man.

Good thread, stop bringing it down.

[rodgerfox]

Not sure why you're bringing the Penny situation up. It's a perfect example of the club's docs making calls and the club and coach listening to them.

It's actually a perfect example of the then player conditioning, medical and fitness department not being up to scratch and where the player Luke Penny had the good sense to go with other advice.

Such poor advice was symptomatic of the period.

If Kosi felt equally aggrieved it would not surprise me one iota.

I don't think anyone would argue that the players 'fitness and conditioning' wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.

What people argue, is how the head coach can be held responsible for it.


It's like crediting Ross Lyon with the players' current fitness and availability levels.

It's not his area. Nor was it GT's.

And nor should it be.

[markp]

Nice selective quoting there....

What about those "subsequent 3 posts" that are so inflammatory...?

You really are clutching at straws... it's pretty bizarre, really.

Dodge, get over yourself.

Let it go man.

Good thread, stop bringing it down.

You replied to my post 'man'... and you keep replying.

Who do you think you're kidding?

And by 'good thread', do you mean same tired old GT argument?

[saintsRrising]

I don't think anyone would argue that the players 'fitness and conditioning' wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.

Don't tell MB....

What people argue, is how the head coach

But GT was not just the Head Coach was he? Have you forgotten?

If Gt had just stuck to beinga Head Coach history would be quite different.

can be held responsible for it.

Because at the time GT demanded to the Board that he be responsible for it.

He and RB argued about this issue and after that Gt was given responsibility and accountability for it.

In the end it was one of the issues that led to GT being axed.

It's like crediting Ross Lyon with the players' current fitness and availability levels.

Not it is not. Not at all.

Ross arrived at the club and after realising that "the meat and potatoes" he confronted the Board and demanded that the problem be fixed.
Unlike GT he had the good sense to not dabble in areas outside of his expertise.

This led to an independent review led by Ross Smith (former Club Coach, Captain and Champion and now leading sports scientist) which completely overhauled the Club's Medical, Conditioning and fitness Departments with all new Doctors, Physios and Misson being appointed.

Lyon was no doubt helpful in landing Misson as Misson knew he could work well with Lyon as the Head Coach.

It's not his area. Nor was it GT's.

And nor should it be.

Agree..but again GT was the one who demanded of the Board to be responsible for it.

[rodgerfox]

I don't think anyone would argue that the players 'fitness and conditioning' wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.

Don't tell MB....

What people argue, is how the head coach

But GT was not just the Head Coach was he? Have you forgotten?

If Gt had just stuck to beinga Head Coach history would be quite different.

can be held responsible for it.

Because at the time GT demanded to the Board that he be responsible for it.

He and RB argued about this issue and after that Gt was given responsibility and accountability for it.

In the end it was one of the issues that led to GT being axed.

It's like crediting Ross Lyon with the players' current fitness and availability levels.

Not it is not. Not at all.

Ross arrived at the club and after realising that "the meat and potatoes" he confronted the Board and demanded that the problem be fixed.
Unlike GT he had the good sense to not dabble in areas outside of his expertise.

This led to an independent review led by Ross Smith (former Club Coach, Captain and Champion and now leading sports scientist) which completely overhauled the Club's Medical, Conditioning and fitness Departments with all new Doctors, Physios and Misson being appointed.

Lyon was no doubt helpful in landing Misson as Misson knew he could work well with Lyon as the Head Coach.

It's not his area. Nor was it GT's.

And nor should it be.

Agree..but again GT was the one who demanded of the Board to be responsible for it.

The Board only wanted a football manager quite late in GT's tenure. Possibly even his last year.

Prior to that, when they were broke, it was the Board's call to go with the structure they had.

[rodgerfox]

I don't think anyone would argue that the players 'fitness and conditioning' wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.

Don't tell MB....

MB can correct me here, but I haven't ever seen him say that it was brilliant.

I've only ever read him say that it wasn't the horrible wretched disaster many on here seem to remember it as.

[SainterK]

What was the reason we went through so many fitness and conditioning coaches prior to Ross arriving, just curious?

[saintsRrising]

The Board only wanted a football manager quite late in GT's tenure. Possibly even his last year.

Prior to that, when they were broke, it was the Board's call to go with the structure they had.

So you now agree that GT was not just a Head Coach?

And yes the then Board (some of whom are still on the "new" Board) initially agreed with GT's preferred structure, before coming to the realisation that it was not the best way to take the Club forward.

PS. Possibly? Drain was offered the job a year before GT was axed, but GT refused. How long before that the Board wanted to change the structure I do not know. However you do not decide to do so in 5 minutes and so it is therefore likely that for GT's last two seasons that the Board would have preferred an alternate structure.

[saintsRrising]

I don't think anyone would argue that the players 'fitness and conditioning' wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.

Don't tell MB....

MB can correct me here, but I haven't ever seen him say that it was brilliant.

I've only ever read him say that it wasn't the horrible wretched disaster many on here seem to remember it as.

RF..I would put the emphasis on:

wasn't as great as it could have/should have been.


Our record was dismal..not even average. Even poorer clubs did better.

Brilliant would have been nice...but even just average would have been a major improvement!!!!!!!!!!

[saintsRrising]

What was the reason we went through so many fitness and conditioning coaches prior to Ross arriving, just curious?

Well the last one was that Starch's missus did not want to move from Qld..

Pity as we had at last found someone capable...

[rodgerfox]

It's like crediting Ross Lyon with the players' current fitness and availability levels.

Not it is not. Not at all.

Ross arrived at the club and after realising that "the meat and potatoes" he confronted the Board and demanded that the problem be fixed.
Unlike GT he had the good sense to not dabble in areas outside of his expertise.

That does sound like dabbling in area outside of his expertise.

A football coach demanding to the Board that something outside his area of expertise be fixed, sounds a little dictatorial to me really.


It just sounds contradictory.

What if the board didn't fix it? Then where does Lyon stand? Does he then get involved personally? Does he walk away?


Did he go and get Misson? If so, then clearly he's doing the exact same thing that GT did in terms of picking his people.

The only difference is that he had more cash at his disposal.

If this isn't what happened, then I don't see how the coach can get credit for his team's fitness levels.

It's like when Mr Burns tells Strawberry to hit a homer. And when he does, Burns turns to Smithers and says "I told him to do that."

It's not his area. Nor was it GT's.

And nor should it be.

Agree..but again GT was the one who demanded of the Board to be responsible for it.[/quote]


Honestly, I believe Lyon did the same thing that GT did.

He explained to the Board what he needed in terms of his players fitness and availability, to succeed.
And offered to put together the right people.

That's what I believe happened, and I believe happens at pretty much every club.

The only difference, and granted it's a big difference - is that Lyon got good people.


GT set his fitness team KPIs in terms of player availability and fitness levels. I'd imagine a very similar set of targets would be set by Lyon to his guys too.

How they do it is not the business of the coach.

[rodgerfox]

The Board only wanted a football manager quite late in GT's tenure. Possibly even his last year.

Prior to that, when they were broke, it was the Board's call to go with the structure they had.

So you now agree that GT was not just a Head Coach?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

The only thing I've argued on that point, is that all AFL coaches are more than just 'head coaches'. Ross Lyon ditto.

And yes the then Board (some of whom are still on the "new" Board) initially agreed with GT's preferred structure, before coming to the realisation that it was not the best way to take the Club forward.

It wasn't GT's structure. It was the Board's structure initially.

My mail from a board member at the time, was the only reason the Board suddenly didn't like the model, was the GT was getting more power at the club than the Board members and in particular - the President.

PS. Possibly? Drain was offered the job a year before GT was axed, but GT refused. How long before that the Board wanted to change the structure I do not know. However you do not decide to do so in 5 minutes and so it is therefore likely that for GT's last two seasons that the Board would have preferred an alternate structure.

My understanding is that at the end of 05 they wanted to change their structure.

GT disagreeing went perfectly well. Because it gave them an excuse to sack him at the of 06.

Seriously, how can a Board accept a coach refusing their structure?

The Board accepted his refusal, because it suited them perfectly.


The above is based on my mail from a Board member. And, he wasn't really a fan of GT the football coach either.

[saintsRrising]

That does sound like dabbling in area outside of his expertise.

A football coach demanding to the Board that something outside his area of expertise be fixed, sounds a little dictatorial to me really.


It just sounds contradictory..

My wife was driving one of our cars the other day.


She knew there was a problem.

Did not have a clue what it was..just that it was wrong.

"Asked" (husband speak for demanded) that I fix it.
Did not try herself.

To know something is wrong you don't necessarily have to be an expert yourself. But if like my wife you drive regularly you have an idea when something is askew even if not knowing exactly what is askew.

In Lyon's case he had been around enough clubs to know that something was not right.

What if the board didn't fix it? Then where does Lyon stand? Does he then get involved personally? Does he walk away?

.

Well the answer to that question is that we will never never know...

[SainterK]

Wow, that's some kind of a power struggle...

[saintsRrising]

Seriously, how can a Board accept a coach refusing their structure?

.

I agree. The Board were weak willed and should of acted and chopped GT at the time, or forced him to accept.

Just as the Cats did with Thompson.

Balme was appointed with no input from Thompson.
Thompson was given no choice but to accept his redefined role and was vocally unhappy about it at the time.

In later interview he admitted he was wrong and that it was the best thing that happened to him.

[saintsRrising]

The Board accepted his refusal, because it suited them perfectly.


.

Yes because it allowed them to role out the new structure.

A structure that seems to be ticking along very nicely to me. Though yes Lovett was hiccup....(though I can see why he was traded for).

[SainterK]

This is an article I found in relation to the fitness at the time of Ross taking over, not sure how much of it is relevant or accurate, but interesting none the less.

While Lyon again insisted yesterday that his young captain was not playing hurt, the truth is that the question marks over Ball's injury and rehabilitation management are endemic to the question marks hanging over the club's medical team - a team that has been questioned not only by the coach but also by senior players including, on Channel Nine's The Footy Show, Aaron Hamill.

Lyon, who pointed out that the Saints had had four strength and conditioning chiefs over the past five seasons (Peter Mulkearns replaced Craig Starcevich at the start of the 2007 season), said the lack of consistency in preparation "had stunted the players' basic conditioning".

Continuing tension with the club's medical team has continued this season, with the coaching staff continually frustrated by injuries occurring or worsening during the week.

A big review is taking place, overseen by St Kilda Brownlow medallist Ross Smith, who in turn has enlisted former Brisbane physiotherapist Peter Stanton. Smith, who is heading the Saints' sports innovations committee, updated club president Rod Butterss at a meeting yesterday and clearly a restructure and perhaps personnel changes will occur in the forthcoming months.

[rodgerfox]

The Board accepted his refusal, because it suited them perfectly.


.

Yes because it allowed them to role out the new structure.

A structure that seems to be ticking along very nicely to me. Though yes Lovett was hiccup....(though I can see why he was traded for).

As I said earlier, my source disagreed. It was about power and personalities - not a football dept. structure.

[SainterK]

The Board accepted his refusal, because it suited them perfectly.


.

Yes because it allowed them to role out the new structure.

A structure that seems to be ticking along very nicely to me. Though yes Lovett was hiccup....(though I can see why he was traded for).

As I said earlier, my source disagreed. It was about power and personalities - not a football dept. structure.

They thought GT had to much power and influence, more so than the president at the time?