Believing in Ross?

[markp]

Well I think it's revisionist bollocks.

To summarize rodge's post and make it even easier; "I was right then, and I'm right now".

[bigred]

rofl!

Fair.


Did I mention that we have won 17 straight games this year?

[markp]

Did I mention that we have won 17 straight games this year?

I know!

It's freakin awesome!!

I'm so excited!!!

[joffaboy]

Well I think it's revisionist bollocks.

To summarize rodge's post and make it even easier; "I was right then, and I'm right now".

I agree. Lyon was hamstrung in his first year by

a) the appalling player management of the previous coaching dept
b) extremely long soft tissue injuries (who remembers the game aginst Hawthorn when we had no players left?)
c) Trying to implement the gameplan we now have (but without the players to do so.

To say he has recruited poorly is laughable - truly laughable.

Gardiner (inspired)
King (very good)
Schneider (excellent)
Dempster (very good)
Ray (outstanding)
Dawson (revelation)

Dave Misson - enough said
Mathew Drain - excellent

Failures
Attard (good at the time)
C.Gardiner - didn't work
Doc Clarke - fill in only.

How could the above be classed as a failure???

Really RF is either trolling or grasping at straws.

Really piss poor.

[InkerSaint]

If anything, I would give a touch more credit to Ross, since he does call the shots. Some people do not have it in their personality to change, or rethink ideas.

Sure, Ross surrounded himself with some proven football minds. And he had the balls to change his system, taking full utilisation of these people.

If he was more pig headed like some other past coaches, we may have been paying top dollar for assistant coaches that dont get a look in.

How very generous of you! You would really give a touch more credit to Ross would you? As opposed to Mr. Wind Up Merchant who (under both of his identities) has been spruiking the claim that Lyon is a stooge and that Leigh Tudor is the real genius?

Not that Rodger Stool ever substantiates his claims.

The claim that Lyon arrived with no clue, is easily disproven:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 42,00.html

Brett Voss, a regular under Thomas who lost his place in the Saints' best side in Lyon's first year, saw the transition close up.

"It looked like he had a bigger plan and definite way forward the first day he stepped through the door,'' Voss said.

As for "He wasn't getting good footy out of the good players.

And was getting worse footy out of the ordinary players.

He recruited poorly too.

His game plan was putrid."

This:

Lyon copped the blame in the early days for taking the panache out of the Saints and turning them into a Sydney clone.

But Voss said the players were to blame for the stodgy, low-scoring football as the Saints started slowly in 2007, before improving to finish ninth.

"Ross was all about structure - having a Plan B when Plan A doesn't work out,'' Voss said.

And poor recruitment? Ray? Dawson? King? Schneider?

Spare me the drivel.

[bigred]

Granted, his recruiting has been solid.

Gardiner (inspired)
King (very good)
Schneider (excellent)
Dempster (very good)
Ray (outstanding)
Dawson (revelation)

Dave Misson - enough said
Mathew Drain - excellent

Failures
Attard (good at the time)
C.Gardiner - didn't work
Doc Clarke - fill in only.

He tood a couple of risks there remember. Mick Gardiner could have gone either way. People were just lining up for him to fail.
Same could be said for Dawson & Ray.

Dave Misson and Matty Drain...Absolutely inspired recruiting.

I think something more of note here, is not just the recruiting of these players, it is the way they have developed. Take Schneider for example. His workrate and output this year have been streets ahead of anything he produced @ Sydney. Farren Ray is a different player and Dawson...Dawson ...well, what can you say about the guy.

It has been a slow evolution over the past two and a half years though...

Personally, I cannot fault the 2009 Ross Lyon...at all.

[rodgerfox]

To say he has recruited poorly is laughable - truly laughable.

I didn't say he has recruited poorly.

I said when he arrived he recruited poorly.

Gardiner (inspired)
King (very good)
Schneider (excellent)
Dempster (very good)
Ray (outstanding)
Dawson (revelation)

Dave Misson - enough said
Mathew Drain - excellent

Failures
Attard (good at the time)
C.Gardiner - didn't work
Doc Clarke - fill in only.

The above list supports my opinion.

[Darrel Baldock]

Well as a callow unseasoned poster I've learnt one thing. Unless you wish your post to be hijacked, don't mention G***T***** and R*** L*** in the same sentence, paragraph or post because it simply reignites the same dreary debate once again. That one is over. Charisma driven leadership has been replaced with reward for toil and application to system.
Have I just started it again? Please...... no more!

[bigred]

How very generous of you! You would really give a touch more credit to Ross would you? As opposed to Mr. Wind Up Merchant who (under both of his identities) has been spruiking the claim that Lyon is a stooge and that Leigh Tudor is the real genius?

You quoted me completely out of context. Totally out of context.

But I will generously move past that.

As i have said, I cannot fault Ross Lyon of 2009.
His first two years had issues. Undeniable.

Trust me, I am a Ross Lyon fanboi now...Make no mistake.

[InkerSaint]

The above list supports my opinion.

One spurious argument clarified, 5 million to go!

[saintsRrising]

Lyon recruited poorly when he started???

You have to be kidding.

Firstly lets remember when Kyon joined us..it was DURING trade week....


First thing he did was to take Milne OFF the trade table.

Let me repeat that ...Lyon took Milne off the trade table.

Not a bad "recruiting " decision I would have thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This was also JB's last year as the head recruiting guy.....and the new guy has down well since arriviing.


Looking at Lyon's trading...and drafting record on the whole since he arrived it can olnly be descibed as very good.

As to Lyon taking a while to steady the ship...

What do you expect??????


Lyon is not a magician...he did not arrive witha magic wand to arrive and say Shazam...and all was magically fixed.


If one is renovating a house...do you expect the tradesmen to deliver the finished product as soon as the ink is dry on the contract???

No...it takes time.

Lyon as with any renovation project had to cut out the rot, strengthen the bad areas, get new materials in. And indeed with limited draft and trade wondows there is alimit to how quickly one can bring in such materials.


Lyon a bad trader???? Fanciful stuff. Lyon's trade record is amazingly good.

Once his feet had been under the tablea bit it was superb.


Lyon mapped out his changes as soon as he started...and he has delivered on this.

Sure he fine tuned as he has gone along....and why would he not.

For example had Clarkson invernted his rolling zone when Lyon started???

Were Geelong playing their ruthless brand of football...???

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

[InkerSaint]

First thing he did was to take Milne OFF the trade table.

Let me repeat that ...Lyon took Milne off the trade table.

Not a bad "recruiting " decision I would have thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never knew that.

My admiration for the man has just risen a notch.

Thanks for weighing in, sRr!

[bigred]

First thing he did was to take Milne OFF the trade table.

Let me repeat that ...Lyon took Milne off the trade table.

Not a bad "recruiting " decision I would have thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never knew that.

My admiration for the man has just risen a notch.

Thanks for weighing in, sRr!

Yeah he did.

Was pretty much the first thing he did. Milne was a required player. End of story.

[matrix]

I didn't say he has recruited poorly.

I said when he arrived he recruited poorly.

[rodgerfox]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

[saintlee]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

What about SOS, he started with RL in his first season, did he have a clue?

And Mission was not the only medical/fitness appointment made in the last couple of years by RL, he has made this area a priority since he arrived, and we are now seeing the results of multiple changes

[rodgerfox]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

What about SOS, he started with RL in his first season, did he have a clue?

And Mission was not the only medical/fitness appointment made in the last couple of years by RL, he has made this area a priority since he arrived, and we are now seeing the results of multiple changes

Silvagni does have a clue.



I mean seriously, Lyon has a game plan that involves a brilliant list of players who have been at the club for 5-10 years, being fully fit and healthy, and putting extreme pressure on our opposition.

WOW!!!! Genius!!

[bigred]

Lyon is not the messiah

17-ZIP is making a lot of people think he is the messiah.

If he wins us a flag he is the fkn messiah.

If your only as good as your last game, then this bloke has 17 weeks of AWESOME backing him up.

Who gives a flog about two years ago. Live in the moment Rog, and enjoy it...

[InkerSaint]

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

How do you go from "need to evolve" to "woeful"?

Our intrepid hero gleefully notches up spurious argument 5,000,002

[saintlee]

AFL is an evolving game...and tactics need to evolve....coaches need to evolve.

So you're now arguing that his had excuses for being woeful?

That may be the case, but it's irrelevant. He was woeful when he started. And he realised this, and made significant changes - including getting assistants that had a clue.

Lyon is not the messiah.

He was an ordinary coach. He snagged the best fitness dude in the history of world sport, and a brilliant assistant coach - and now we're in good nick.

What about SOS, he started with RL in his first season, did he have a clue?

And Mission was not the only medical/fitness appointment made in the last couple of years by RL, he has made this area a priority since he arrived, and we are now seeing the results of multiple changes

Silvagni does have a clue.



I mean seriously, Lyon has a game plan that involves a brilliant list of players who have been at the club for 5-10 years, being fully fit and healthy, and putting extreme pressure on our opposition.

WOW!!!! Genius!!

Is that sarcasm

What is your point there Rogerfox?

Are you suggesting RL's gameplan is that shallow, you really have no clue if you think that!

[yipper]

Lyon is not the messiah

17-ZIP is making a lot of people think he is the messiah.

If he wins us a flag he is the fkn messiah.

If your only as good as your last game, then this bloke has 17 weeks of AWESOME backing him up.

Who gives a flog about two years ago. Live in the moment Rog, and enjoy it...

Exactly. This coach is delivering the goods on a weekly basis. He is widely regarded by the football communtiy as being the modern day coach with superb tactical nous. We are unbeaten and absolutely smashing all comers. Yet you insist it is someone else who should take the credit?? The buck stops at the coach - he has put all this in place and he is steering the ship. And he is damn good driver!!

[markp]

Yup, Lyon is an ordinary coach... who just happens to make brilliant decisions...........



RF believes none of this by the way.... he just likes trying to p1ss on people's chips for some lame reason.

[joffaboy]

Yup, Lyon is an ordinary coach... who just happens to make brilliant decisions...........



RF believes none of this by the way.... he just likes trying to p1ss on people's chips for some lame reason.

But markp - RF never said that. He said he was and ordinary coach

So by natural extention, this would mean that RF doesn NOT think he is an ordinary coach anymore.

But obviously not a good coach because Lyon has a game plan that involves a brilliant list of players who have been at the club for 5-10 years, being fully fit and healthy, and putting extreme pressure on our opposition.

Even though many of the players (Gardiner, Dawson, Ray, Schneider, Dempster, King, McEvoy,Geary, Eddy, McQualter delisted and reinstated) weren't about 5 or 10 years ago, lets look at this disparaging concept.

Why did Lyon apply for the job? Did he look at the list and think, there is nothing to work with? Or did he think not a bad list, but if we recruite 6-8 new players we could be something?

Can anybody name a coach that has taken over and not used the majority of the players there? What a spurious stupid argument.

Anyway it is Lyon who has brought in the above players, it is Lyon that has got the whole list to buy into the philosophy, it is Lyoin who will drop high profile players (Dal, Milne, Gram, Ball) if they are not adhering to the group ethos.

It is Lyon who has got the Saints 17-0, no other coach has achieved this.

None.

Anybody who is inferring Lyon is no good, is either an idiot or trolling.

[rodgerfox]

This coach is delivering the goods on a weekly basis. He is widely regarded by the football communtiy as being the modern day coach with superb tactical nous. We are unbeaten and absolutely smashing all comers. Yet you insist it is someone else who should take the credit?? The buck stops at the coach - he has put all this in place and he is steering the ship. And he is damn good driver!!

I've always said that coaches deserve little credit.

If we lose good players, we will lose games. Then suddenly Lyon will be a hack.

A coach has 3 jobs...

1) Get good players
2) Make sure they are fit and on the park
3) Make sure they watnt to try hard every week

That's it.

Once you get that, it does not matter one iota what your game plan is.

Some coaches want just a Plan A - such as Geelong. You just keep doing exactly what you do, and don't deviate at all. You just get so good at it that people can't match you. And if you do match you, then you get rolled.

West Coast also won a flag doing this. As did Hawthorn last year.

Sydney ditto. With a slight twist and semblance of a 'Plan B'.

Brisbane and all sides prior to them achieved success this way.


The game plans themselves were slightly different, some the same, and in the end irrelevant. The key thing was good players, mentally swtiched and physically fit.

These days, the coach doesn't control the fitness and doesn't manage the list.

He oversees the people running these areas.


I've never rated the influence of a coach that highly.

And in Lyon's case, I feel exactly the same way.

When we had good players missing, he was hopeless.
When we had dud assistants, he was hopeless.

Now suddenly we have the fittest list in the cost, and some astute assistant coaches - and he's a hero and a genius?

Please, some perspective would be nice.

[rodgerfox]

It is Lyon who has got the Saints 17-0

I'd say there are about 50 people at the St Kilda footy club who would take umberidga at that comment.

When 'Ross' didn't have a fit list, and an assistant coach with ability - oddly we weren't 17-0.