Scared to make a change?

[SainterK]

Scared, I think not...

Ross is big on "roles" and rates highly when players are implementing them.

[Milton66]

Jude Bolton, Sydney midfielder, saw it in Lyon's time in the Harbour City, once telling the Herald Sun: "You'd walk in Monday morning with your helmet on and you knew you were going to take a few hits.

"That's what we loved about him - you always knew where you stood.''

Game - Set - Match.

[borderbarry]

I am happy with the way the Saints are rolling along, Ross is doing a great job. Once Max is back I think we will be just about at our best 22. But who is going to make way for Max, that is the question. I have previously posted that I dont believe Dawson is good enough to keep Max out of the team, but by the same token he is playing well enough to keep his place. I would like to see him play the rest of the season beside Max. It would add to his experience I am sure.

[Milton66]

I am happy with the way the Saints are rolling along, Ross is doing a great job. Once Max is back I think we will be just about at our best 22. But who is going to make way for Max, that is the question. I have previously posted that I dont believe Dawson is good enough to keep Max out of the team, but by the same token he is playing well enough to keep his place. I would like to see him play the rest of the season beside Max. It would add to his experience I am sure.

Thta could be highly probable, with someone up the ground making way. Perhaps Gilbert moves fwd? It will come down tokeeping enough run down back, and if RL thinks that having both Zac and Max together makes our backline too slow.

[joffaboy]

Yup - Ross Lyon is scared and soft and takes the easy way out when he comes to dropping and elevating players.

Just ask Milne and Dal Santo and now Gram

What a ludicrious suggestion to make.

None of Goose Max or Gram deserve a walk up start.

I couldn't care less if the players were Rob Harvey Daryl Baldock and Trevor Barker.

This typical St.Kilda mediocre culture of messiah worship has been stopped by Lyon - thank CHRIST.

No longer do players waltz into the team because the have a name and lovestruck St.Kilda supporters demand it.

Ross Lyon is showing great strength in breaking this destructive type of insular and loser mentality of popularist selections.

I couldn't care less if Maguire Hudgton or Gram never plays for the seniors again. I support the team not a player or coach or some icon or messiah.

Well done Lyon.

Pathetic thread.

[St Fidelius]

Well said joffaboy...

But the OP wants a discussion on the issue and you failed to add in a couple of

in your response

I believe that the OP is of the opinion that if a player "has enough credits in the bank" they should just waltz into the side at the expense of a player that has been playing well.

and the OP wants us to discuss the issue

I have given the OP my opinion and it still has not sunk in, maybe the OP just wants posters that agree with him to discuss the topic.

agreed that this is a stupid thread

[Richter]

Spinner, one thing that I think is fairly clear from all we know about RL is that whatever opinion he proffers to the match committee will be backed up with stats.

I don't know how he biases his ratings of players, but I suspect that things like tackles/1%ers/contested possessions are rated highest. Also they seem to want to play a certain structure.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way round. The question isn't "when will these top players get into the team" but "what is the present incumbent doing to justify his place in the team". Based on this......

Blake - last game not so good, but he is basically a reliable backman who can play Tall and gives some run out of defence. Not sure that Max offers as much run, Goose is a big ? and may be an option, but IMO Blake has done enough right over the last couple of months to deserve to stay. Another who may pressure Blake is Dempster, but although I see he's back for Sandy he's presumably a month or so away from being AFL ready.

Dawson - probably the one most ripe for a change as Max plays his exact position only better. However, I don't think that the coaching/medical staff think he is quite ready conditioning wise. Expect to see this change in the next 2-3 weeks though.

Gwilt - for mine is not doing enough - basically IMO a medium Tall needs to kick more goals than he does. I'm reasonably pleased with his around the ground performance but a goal every 3 games isn't good enough. HOWEVER, who is the natural replacement? hE fits the structure beatifully and this is important IMO. Allen is gone for the year. Most likely here is surely Lynch. But he has not dome enough in the 2's for mine. However a few more performances like last week (when he kicked 4 from memory)...... and Gwilt had better watch out.

Geary - yeah, he's done well, but he's a GOP at best. I would happily interchange him with Eddy whose cardiovascular fitness IMO provides more options to defenders kicking out from defence - but easy either way as Eddy no better than a GOP either.

McQualter - for mine, doing his job beautifully as an extra tackling mid, who has reasonable disposal and can pop up and snag a goal as a resting forward. Averaging nearly a goal a game so far this year. No way I'd be dropping mini on present form.

Raph - see the other thread. Deserves another gig this week as just coming back from injury. Was blossoming before it. If he can get back to that level then the options it gives us rebounding from half back are tremendous - Fisher, Gilbert, Raph.... with BJ rotating through at times. It means that opposition teams simply cannot cover all of them - any of them can play the loose man back effectively.

Gram - not sure why he was dropped - but he isn't exactly the hardest in the contest and whilst he garners plenty of inside 50s his disposal skills have dropped off recently. However, on form he is a top ten player and important to give us different option i.e. run and carry.

--------------------------

Overall though, what is also clear is that RL won't change anything for the sake of it. There was a perception that that is what happened at the end of our '04 streak and I don't think RL will make the same mistake.

He regards consistency of approach as paramount. Every week the same..... I expect that Leigh Tudor's experience at Geelong (as well as his own under Roos at Sydney) influences him a lot.

Anyways, a few discussion points. Cheers.

[Spinner]

Spinner, one thing that I think is fairly clear from all we know about RL is that whatever opinion he proffers to the match committee will be backed up with stats.

I don't know how he biases his ratings of players, but I suspect that things like tackles/1%ers/contested possessions are rated highest. Also they seem to want to play a certain structure.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way round. The question isn't "when will these top players get into the team" but "what is the present incumbent doing to justify his place in the team". Based on this......

Blake - last game not so good, but he is basically a reliable backman who can play Tall and gives some run out of defence. Not sure that Max offers as much run, Goose is a big ? and may be an option, but IMO Blake has done enough right over the last couple of months to deserve to stay. Another who may pressure Blake is Dempster, but although I see he's back for Sandy he's presumably a month or so away from being AFL ready.

Dawson - probably the one most ripe for a change as Max plays his exact position only better. However, I don't think that the coaching/medical staff think he is quite ready conditioning wise. Expect to see this change in the next 2-3 weeks though.

Gwilt - for mine is not doing enough - basically IMO a medium Tall needs to kick more goals than he does. I'm reasonably pleased with his around the ground performance but a goal every 3 games isn't good enough. HOWEVER, who is the natural replacement? hE fits the structure beatifully and this is important IMO. Allen is gone for the year. Most likely here is surely Lynch. But he has not dome enough in the 2's for mine. However a few more performances like last week (when he kicked 4 from memory)...... and Gwilt had better watch out.

Geary - yeah, he's done well, but he's a GOP at best. I would happily interchange him with Eddy whose cardiovascular fitness IMO provides more options to defenders kicking out from defence - but easy either way as Eddy no better than a GOP either.

McQualter - for mine, doing his job beautifully as an extra tackling mid, who has reasonable disposal and can pop up and snag a goal as a resting forward. Averaging nearly a goal a game so far this year. No way I'd be dropping mini on present form.

Raph - see the other thread. Deserves another gig this week as just coming back from injury. Was blossoming before it. If he can get back to that level then the options it gives us rebounding from half back are tremendous - Fisher, Gilbert, Raph.... with BJ rotating through at times. It means that opposition teams simply cannot cover all of them - any of them can play the loose man back effectively.

Gram - not sure why he was dropped - but he isn't exactly the hardest in the contest and whilst he garners plenty of inside 50s his disposal skills have dropped off recently. However, on form he is a top ten player and important to give us different option i.e. run and carry.

--------------------------

Overall though, what is also clear is that RL won't change anything for the sake of it. There was a perception that that is what happened at the end of our '04 streak and I don't think RL will make the same mistake.

He regards consistency of approach as paramount. Every week the same..... I expect that Leigh Tudor's experience at Geelong (as well as his own under Roos at Sydney) influences him a lot.

Anyways, a few discussion points. Cheers.

I tend to understand the purpose of not wanting to change the team for consistency reason and stability. Great advantages of success. But I also see the negatives in that sometimes it is easier to not take action, rather than make a tough call and promote certain blokes.....and I don't want it to be because it is the easy option just because we are winning.

Once again - Only posing the question of how these bloke will get in. Clearly Max and Gram's inclusion will eventuate, but just on what circumstances......


Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

[Spinner]

Ross is systematic and this approach I think is coming through into choices at the selection table. I would love to see Goose, Max and even Armo in but I know far less about footy and far less of Ross' plans to really make a comment.

Are we 'scared' to make a change? I don't think so.

Do we keep showing faith in those who have done the job up to this point? Not a bad option. Do we drop a couple only if we lose? Does a few bad individual performances finally swing the axe after a loss?

Do we make some changes and seemingly improve the team to avoid that loss? Nothing may be 'broke', but do we tweak for improvement anyway?

Do we retain the same team to show confidence and belief in the players there? Will dropping players introduce a sapping of confidence in the 'lesser lights' who neverthless have performed well? Will we undermine that sense of dedication to team goals. Or if they are so sensitive to being dropped, are they all thinking 'team' anyway?

Frankly, I don't know.

I just beleive we are not scared but rather systematic. Ross has a plan. I don't think it is necessarily resting Max for a big second half of the year. I don't know the plan and I don't know the ramifications of altering it at this stage. I just know that we are winning and that the selection table plan is as carefully thought out as the tactical plan.

So far so good. Let's see the future response to the way in which we are challenged and possibly even 'bettered' by other teams.

GO SAINTERS!

For one, Dawson is definitely benefiting by his (or in my opinion) extended stint in the seniors. Makes valuable back up if Max, or others go down later in the season - That may be all part of the plan, and I hope it is.

Maybe its a matter of Ross knowing what Max, Goose and Gram all offer and thus will only benefit by giving experience, and experimenting with others in different roles while times are good.

But what I don't hope is that we have created a culture that makes it impossible to be included into the seniors based on reserve performances barring the exception of forced changes....I don't want attitude that we are exempt from improvement.

[Mr Magic]

Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

Sorry Spinner, I can't speak for Fid, I can only speak for myself.

Contribution is not the issue at all, and either you fail to grasp it or conveniently avoid it.
You posted your OP in a manner that led me (at least) to read it as you stating facts - 'soft', 'guts' etc.
Now that may have been your intention or may not, but that was the result.

You continue to avoid that issue by either ignoring it or replying in tangential terms.

If you want to have a debate then by all means I'm happy to oblige, but not when you state your opinion as fact instead of opinion.

How does one debate against 'fact'?
It's nigh on impossible to make any coherent argument against a fact.

[Spinner]

Yup - Ross Lyon is scared and soft and takes the easy way out when he comes to dropping and elevating players.

Just ask Milne and Dal Santo and now Gram

What a ludicrious suggestion to make.

None of Goose Max or Gram deserve a walk up start.

I couldn't care less if the players were Rob Harvey Daryl Baldock and Trevor Barker.

This typical St.Kilda mediocre culture of messiah worship has been stopped by Lyon - thank CHRIST.

No longer do players waltz into the team because the have a name and lovestruck St.Kilda supporters demand it.

Ross Lyon is showing great strength in breaking this destructive type of insular and loser mentality of popularist selections.

I couldn't care less if Maguire Hudgton or Gram never plays for the seniors again. I support the team not a player or coach or some icon or messiah.

Well done Lyon.

Pathetic thread.

Dropping Dal and Milne was an entirely different situation. Our backs were to the wall. We were in jeopardy of losing the season. Today - we are winning, and winning well.

You seriously don't think Max and Gram are walk up starts? Hopefully not. Yeh, I understand and tend to agree that for discipline Gram should get sent back. And I like the luxury of having Max build fitness in the seconds.....But they are walk up starts, based on their ability, contribution and talent. Much alike 10-12 other players in our team.

Goose the exception. Long term injury....But another point to counter the 'walk up start' theory....These players have done their dues in the seconds. From all reports Gram played well, Max has held his own and Goose has been as versatile as hell....Its not like they don't have performance to back it up.

As stated the benefits of consistency and stability are important...But so is a structured process between performance in the reserves and promotion into the firsts.....And I don't want that process of elevation to solely rely on injury and forced change.

[Devilhead]

It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

Here's my contribution - this discussion is boring the tits off me!!!

If Max, Goose and Gram get back into the team it will be for the right reasons - injuries, form, match-ups or someone not following team rules - seriously is it that hard to figure out???

We are 9 zip - Trust in Ross!!!

[Mr Magic]

[
And I don't want that process of elevation to solely rely on injury and forced change.

Who said it was, besides you?

A couple of weeks back Eddy was dropped back to Sandy so King could play.

That change in itself would seem to negate your assertion.

[Spinner]

Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

Sorry Spinner, I can't speak for Fid, I can only speak for myself.

Contribution is not the issue at all, and either you fail to grasp it or conveniently avoid it.
You posted your OP in a manner that led me (at least) to read it as you stating facts - 'soft', 'guts' etc.
Now that may have been your intention or may not, but that was the result.

You continue to avoid that issue by either ignoring it or replying in tangential terms.

If you want to have a debate then by all means I'm happy to oblige, but not when you state your opinion as fact instead of opinion.

How does one debate against 'fact'?
It's nigh on impossible to make any coherent argument against a fact.

As stated I already responded to your issue on this. Would you like me to retype that reply post? Only for you to once again repeat yourself and ask the question again....

I explained that my use of wording, even within the thread title shows that I am simply asking the question...He is, Isn't he, Will he, Won't he....I cant be blamed if some fail to understand, even when it is explained in detail twice to them.

Once again Magic, if you haven't got anything to offer on the points I raised - well I guess just keep posting this rubbish based on trivial misunderstandings.

[Mr Magic]

Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

Sorry Spinner, I can't speak for Fid, I can only speak for myself.

Contribution is not the issue at all, and either you fail to grasp it or conveniently avoid it.
You posted your OP in a manner that led me (at least) to read it as you stating facts - 'soft', 'guts' etc.
Now that may have been your intention or may not, but that was the result.

You continue to avoid that issue by either ignoring it or replying in tangential terms.

If you want to have a debate then by all means I'm happy to oblige, but not when you state your opinion as fact instead of opinion.

How does one debate against 'fact'?
It's nigh on impossible to make any coherent argument against a fact.

As stated I already responded to your issue on this. Would you like me to retype that reply post? Only for you to once again repeat yourself and ask the question again....

I explained that my use of wording, even within the thread title shows that I am simply asking the question...He is, Isn't he, Will he, Won't he....I cant be blamed if some fail to understand, even when it is explained in detail twice to them.

Once again Magic, if you haven't got anything to offer on the points I raised - well I guess just keep posting this rubbish based on trivial misunderstandings.

So for future reference, I and others should just take every one of your posts as an opinion, notwithstanding the way they are actually written.
Fine, I now understand you clearly.

SO to answer your opinion discussion thread,

IMO,
RL is not 'soft'.
He has the required 'guts' to coach and select the team.
He knows what he is doing re team selection.
The players are aware of what he requires from them.

And if you truly think the things you posted you have little knowledge of AFL football.

[Spinner]

Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

Sorry Spinner, I can't speak for Fid, I can only speak for myself.

Contribution is not the issue at all, and either you fail to grasp it or conveniently avoid it.
You posted your OP in a manner that led me (at least) to read it as you stating facts - 'soft', 'guts' etc.
Now that may have been your intention or may not, but that was the result.

You continue to avoid that issue by either ignoring it or replying in tangential terms.

If you want to have a debate then by all means I'm happy to oblige, but not when you state your opinion as fact instead of opinion.

How does one debate against 'fact'?
It's nigh on impossible to make any coherent argument against a fact.

As stated I already responded to your issue on this. Would you like me to retype that reply post? Only for you to once again repeat yourself and ask the question again....

I explained that my use of wording, even within the thread title shows that I am simply asking the question...He is, Isn't he, Will he, Won't he....I cant be blamed if some fail to understand, even when it is explained in detail twice to them.

Once again Magic, if you haven't got anything to offer on the points I raised - well I guess just keep posting this rubbish based on trivial misunderstandings.

So for future reference, I and others should just take every one of your posts as an opinion, notwithstanding the way they are actually written.
Fine, I now understand you clearly.

SO to answer your opinion discussion thread,

IMO,
RL is not 'soft'.
He has the required 'guts' to coach and select the team.
He knows what he is doing re team selection.
The players are aware of what he requires from them.

And if you truly think the things you posted you have little knowledge of AFL football.

Obviously you still contain a lack of understanding of pure English.....I wouldn't be concerned about peoples understanding of sport in that respect. You have bigger problems to face.

Now - How do you think Gram, Max and Goose will come into the team? Do you think they will come into the team? Will the selection panel wait for a forced change? Will they drop players undeservedly?...These are the points I have been raising....Little by little we will get there.

[St Fidelius]

Magic, Fid take note. It's called contribution, whether you agree or disagree.

I did contribute and I stated that I agree with the way RL and the Club are conducting themselves with selecting players.

Why don't you take note of that???

I mentioned what RL has said in a recent speech and agreed with it, only to be insulted by you.


You must be think as IMO

You wanted discussion and I gave you my views, you then came on to say that you will respond in your own time and will not be dictated, my you are so precious ......


Stupid thread

[Mr Magic]

Hey Spinner, are you really that dumb?
Or are you just pretending?

I, and it would seem plenty on here, don't accept your original premise (now that we've established that it is an opinion only and not a statement of fact).

If I don't accept your premise what more needs to be said than I disagree with you?

If you're hanging around waiting for a slap on the back from other posters so that you can feel all warm and fuzzy about your knowledge of the issue, then I'm sorry to disappoint you.
You're not going to get it from me.
AND it doesn't look like you're going to have much success getting it from many others (if any) either.

My suggestion is you go back to the drawing board and find some other nonsense to raise.

This lot has seemingly run its course and been consigned to where it belongs - the dumpster.

In my opinion of course.

[Devilhead]

Now - How do you think Gram, Max and Goose will come into the team?

Either thru injury to senior players, form drop of senior players, someone in the senior team not following team rules or forced change due to match-ups

Do you think they will come into the team?

They may do

They may not

Will the selection panel wait for a forced change?

They may do

They may not

Will they drop players undeservedly?...

They may do

They may not

These are the points I have been raising

Whilst using the words "soft" and "gutless"

....Little by little we will get there.

Get where????

The points you raise having us guessing

[St Fidelius]

Hey Spinner, are you really that dumb?
Or are you just pretending?

I, and it would seem plenty on here, don't accept your original premise (now that we've established that it is an opinion only and not a statement of fact).

If I don't accept your premise what more needs to be said than I disagree with you?

If you're hanging around waiting for a slap on the back from other posters so that you can feel all warm and fuzzy about your knowledge of the issue, then I'm sorry to disappoint you.
You're not going to get it from me.
AND it doesn't look like you're going to have much success getting it from many others (if any) either.

My suggestion is you go back to the drawing board and find some other nonsense to raise.

This lot has seemingly run its course and been consigned to where it belongs - the dumpster.

In my opinion of course.

Don't worry about it Mr Magic...

You and other will only get lectured by Spinner on what a forum is all about and that is discussion .....

It seems to me that if you disagree with his thoughts, you are not having a discussion.

It appears that Spinner believes that players from past seasons have "credits in the bank" and should be a walk up start to the side that is undefeated, and by his thoughts players that have been doing their job will just have to make way for them.

Yep RL is "soft" and is incapable of making decisions and that's why we are undefeated

Again, STUPID THREAD! (IMO)

[St Fidelius]

Spinner a word of advice...

Don't come on here and lecture posters on what a forum is about when they ask questions and give their own comment.

You raised the issue about RL and that he maybe scared to make a change and hinted that he maybe "soft" and maybe lacking guts to make a decision.

I responded by posting what RL has recently stated about team selection only to be insulted by you.

trying to illustrate your 'insider' knowledge on the coaching staff

Again I was not trying to illustrate my insider knowledge at all.

One would think what RL has recently stated about team selection was relevant to this stupid thread...

But then again, you must not deem it to be relevant because it just does not suit with you opinion.

[widereceiver]

post ergo procter hoc

just to be pedantic, particularly as it's your sig.

[joffaboy]

Dropping Dal and Milne was an entirely different situation. Our backs were to the wall. We were in jeopardy of losing the season. Today - we are winning, and winning well.

You intimated that RL didn't have the guts to bring in players. However he had the guts to drop two Saint favourites.

Exactly the same situation when it comes to discussing RL's intestinal fortitude.

You seriously don't think Max and Gram are walk up starts? Hopefully not.

No I dont think they are walk up starts. What has Max done this season? And Gram has butchered the ball all year.

Both are not walk up start because they have a name.

Yeh, I understand and tend to agree that for discipline Gram should get sent back. And I like the luxury of having Max build fitness in the seconds.....But they are walk up starts, based on their ability, contribution and talent. Much alike 10-12 other players in our team.

What contribution? None from Max - and piss poor from Gram.

They have shown nothing this year and dont deserve to be handed a spot because a fanboi deems it so.

Let them wait. They dont walk into this TEAM.

Goose the exception. Long term injury....But another point to counter the 'walk up start' theory....These players have done their dues in the seconds.

Who says they have done ther dues? And who cares the players in the seniors have done their dues by winning 9-0.

They can wait.

From all reports Gram played well, Max has held his own and Goose has been as versatile as hell....Its not like they don't have performance to back it up.

I couldn't care less. Gram didn't want his spot and lost it. Max "held his own" well the defence has held every team to under an average of 59 points.

Goose has been versatile. Well good for him. When we have an injury mabye that will keep him in good stead.

As stated the benefits of consistency and stability are important...But so is a structured process between performance in the reserves and promotion into the firsts.....And I don't want that process of elevation to solely rely on injury and forced change.

Why not? If you elevate someone you drop someone. I deal in facts and the facts are we are 9-0. We elevate Max Gram and Maguire and we could not have been better placed than we are.

Therefore they are not walk up starts.

Gram didn't work hard enough for his spot and it was taken off him - he has butchered the ball all year and deserved to be dropped.

Max is old in football terms and goes down with injury at the dropp of a hat - he hasn't played all year and like G-Train could well be a liability compared to our fantastic backline that we currently have.

Goose - too slow for the backline - mabye as a third forward but for who?

Really just because you like their names - none are a walk up start.

I like the fact that our team doesn't get injured and also wins.

obviously this is not good enough for you but I bet you will one of the first on here complaining WHEN we eventually lose.

[St Fidelius]

I bet you will one of the first on here complaining WHEN we eventually lose.

That would have to be odds on...

One feels that he wishes HIS OPINION is correct and can't wait for it to happen.

Again...

STUPID THREAD! oh.... in my opinion

[Richter]

post ergo procter hoc

just to be pedantic, particularly as it's your sig.

No, I'm afraid that you are incorrect.....

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... ropter-hoc

* material fallacies ( in applied logic: Material fallacies )

...non causa pro causa) mislocates the cause of one phenomenon in another that is only seemingly related. The most common version of this fallacy, called post hoc ergo propter hoc (“after which hence by whichâ€