I have joined the club.

[The Fireman]

When we win the players are all stars, when we lose the coach has no idea. When are the players going to be held accountable? Why is it always the coach?
I get that the coach should be sending these players out with a fire lit under there arse, but come on these guys are supposed to be the ultimate professionals and they are paid very, very well. We are sending off our greatest ever player and they dish up that crap.

I sat there watching the game last saturday night and I like many couldn't work out why we didn't have another leading forward option but what stood out to me more was most of our players being second to the ball, no second efforts, tackles not sticking, players who are generally good by foot missing targets by miles. That is not coaching issues, that is work ethic issues. Players prepared to wait for someone else to do the hard work. It's been that way for years, even when GT was coach and to be honest i'm sick to death of it.

I don't think Ross Lyon is the problem. I think the problem is in a playing group that is supremely talented by mentally fragile.

Coaches motivate players, Coaches instill work ethics.
Self motivation is a valuable and rare commodity.

[WayneJudson42]

When we win the players are all stars, when we lose the coach has no idea. When are the players going to be held accountable? Why is it always the coach?
I get that the coach should be sending these players out with a fire lit under there arse, but come on these guys are supposed to be the ultimate professionals and they are paid very, very well. We are sending off our greatest ever player and they dish up that crap.

I sat there watching the game last saturday night and I like many couldn't work out why we didn't have another leading forward option but what stood out to me more was most of our players being second to the ball, no second efforts, tackles not sticking, players who are generally good by foot missing targets by miles. That is not coaching issues, that is work ethic issues. Players prepared to wait for someone else to do the hard work. It's been that way for years, even when GT was coach and to be honest i'm sick to death of it.

I don't think Ross Lyon is the problem. I think the problem is in a playing group that is supremely talented by mentally fragile.

Coaches motivate players, Coaches instill work ethics.
Self motivation is a valuable and rare commodity.

So you obviously believe that instilling that discipline is a quick fix option? It takes time and development to become a well drilled team.

We have a core who were drilled in one fashion for 5 years. Now have to relearn aspects of their game. It takes time.

Coaches motivation comes from explaining how the plan will help them achieve the ultimate. Confidence in the process comes from winning games.

The question is: Does he have the right plan? If not... then get rid of him. But give him his full 3 years to see what he can do.

The flipside is that some players are either unwilling or incapable of learning the disciplines required.

I do find it odd, and no one can give a direct answer, in that we've played some great footy this year allbeit in patches. So in this instance, were the players ignoring the coach... or executing correctly?

Posters ignore this to suit their argument. If they can do it once, why not all the time? Herein lies the logic of the situation we face. Answer the above question objectively, and you'll have you're answer as to whether or not RL is the man for the job. If you believe that we were executing correctly, then you should argue that the coach is on the right track... or you are in denial.

So, if we can do it in patches, it signals to me that we are on the right track IMHO. If we got smashed every game, then fair enough, I'd blame the coach 100%.

[Saints43]

I do find it odd, and no one can give a direct answer, in that we've played some great footy this year allbeit in patches. So in this instance, were the players ignoring the coach... or executing correctly?

I've got no doubt that those good few quarters are what RL is aimimg for.

Is it possible that the plan is not executable for four quarters? That is is prone to breakdown too easily?

All teams look good sometimes - the Dockers under Neesham - the Bulldogs under Rhode - the Saints under Watson.

I don't think the good quarters/matches are the sign of a good plan if they happen so infrequently.

I also think people had better start realising that RL won't ever have a much better list to work with than he has now when you take into account personnel & injuries.

[The Fireman]

So you obviously believe that instilling that discipline is a quick fix option? It takes time and development to become a well drilled team.

.

I was responding to another poster who stated that they weren't chasing and lacked the second efforts, our players appear despondent , I'm talking about the capability of a coach to motivate and cover these areas.

[WayneJudson42]

So you obviously believe that instilling that discipline is a quick fix option? It takes time and development to become a well drilled team.

.

I was responding to another poster who stated that they weren't chasing and lacked the second efforts, our players appear despondent , I'm talking about the capability of a coach to motivate and cover these areas.

Fair enough, too. I reckon that there are probably on a few coaches in recent times who have had that capacity immediately. Roos is one (was assistant at Swans as well as a player). Matthews (reputation).

RL is also on a learning curve TBH. The one shortfall I see is that none of the coaches are Saints men. There was no continuity between the changing of the guard. So you have a situation where he has to:

- impart his philosophy
- players have to readjust to his style
- players have to readjust to each other
- has to earn respect and trust of playing group
- have a clear run with injuries
- mould the list as he requires

I guess if he took over from a bottom team, expectations would be lower.

Injuries are no excuse ATM. However, with 2007 being a total wipeout, due to injusries, this is really his first full year at a real crack.

Let's forget comparisons to the GT etc, coz he's gone. Different coach, different list, AND different comp. Not making excuses. Just trying to keep a balanced view.

The key, as I see it moving forward, is to adapt the same approach as the Swans and Cats re player leadership and team focus.

Whilst you believe that self motivation rarely exists, I can say with 100% certainty that the Swans and Cats success has been mostly player driven.

[saintsRrising]

joffaboy,

I'm happy to have my viewpoint changed if I see some planning going forward.

Take your point on the rookie development and younger players. Hope that continues.

.

In terms of Lyon being only after a "quick-fix" I think it is no where near the actuality.

Yes he tooka pool of mature recruits but as Joffa pointed out he took rookies and younger players too.


But it is not just the younger players......but Lyon took TWO bottom -age players in the last draft in Steven and Eljay. Add to this that he took a ruckman in Ben and you get three selections including the first two that are all about the future with little likeliehood of valuable contributions at senior level till 2010 on. Three long term selections at a time when Lyon would have been feeling the heat, and three selections that will only start to show the best after Lyon's initial three year coaching term.


He also in his first year rubber stamped the selection of Howard (which is now looking to have been way over-rated and valued) with our second pick. Howard was clearly a player when drafted that had to be developed and so again a player for the future.



I think a fairer assessment of Lyon is that he looked at our list and straight away saw some significant areas that had to be addressed.

* opportunistically he has top-upped with a pool of senior players gained at little draft cost.

* he has also kept the best of our draft picks and arguably has sought to increase the long term quality by taking bottom age players who were drafted at "cheap" draft prices.




Now seperate issues are motivation, gameplan etc etc and how good Lyon is at each of them is a seperate issue....but I personally believe that his recruiting has both short-term as well as long term elements to it.

Could Lyon have gone only for kids?

Well yes he could, and long term this may well have turned things over more so that in two plus years time we may have a better list.

But take out King, Dempster, Schneider, Birss and the mature rookie Jones from the current squad and it is likely that this year would have been even worse than it has been in terms of win loss.

The raw kids that would have been there instead would all be high draft picks not likely to have contributed much more than say Allen or Geary......or Sweeney.

now this may yes have been better long term, but don't kid yourself that it would not cause alot of short term pain.

[sunsaint]

joffaboy,

I'm happy to have my viewpoint changed if I see some planning going forward.

Take your point on the rookie development and younger players. Hope that continues.

.

In terms of Lyon being only after a "quick-fix" I think it is no where near the actuality.

<snip>
.

In a word yes, agreed
Last years draft, Lyons first uncomprimised look at the lsit and what was available was nothing short of brilliant. He got quality ready made talent, very promising youth, and elevated and got good mileage out of rookie listings. A year ago everyone was saying we were just a ruck division away from a GF and he corrected that. Our soft tissue problems, well publicised, now seem to be a thing of the past .
Cant fault him with what he has done with his time at the club.

The argument of whether he is the "right man" is mute because he is there, for at least two more seasons the way I see it.

The honest truth (and Spinner take note) our top end of the list is simply not as good as we all make out...
Our forwards have fallen in a big heap since the decline of Gehrig.

We are one big pack busting backmen short, and probably wont see Maguire back again.
Our on-ballers are slow, not good over head, and dont kick goals, its that simple.
None of the above are RL's doing.
For those that say that Lyon has only one trick, is rubbish given that he has moulded the game plan around our lack of pace but good at contested stoppages. We might not like watching it but he is coaching to our list. If our guys could run all 4 quarters, like carlton, we would be doing it.

[iwantmeseats]

So you obviously believe that instilling that discipline is a quick fix option? It takes time and development to become a well drilled team.

.

I was responding to another poster who stated that they weren't chasing and lacked the second efforts, our players appear despondent , I'm talking about the capability of a coach to motivate and cover these areas.

Yet, according to people at training this week, the team were in a very jovial mood and Kosi was training like a complete wreak. WHO is responsible down there? Is any actually truly in charge? Anyway, what do I care? For me, its the first time in 30 years I have felt just like walking away from this team, ashamed to say. It aint just ANY fun any more going to games. At least getting belted in the 80's was a more entertaining game to watch. If they dont give a s***, then...seeya.

Cue Joffaboy...

[saintly_safes]

So the roundabout keeps spinning , everyones dizzy ,everybody wants to get off (including the players).So where to now? Obviously Ross Lyon is not the answer nor was Grant Thomas .So its back to the saints of old ,no foresight, no leadership ,no direction & back to square one "again".Our team's not that bad its everything else that has fallen away that has caused the side to capitulate in to what was once a premiership threat ,back the rebuilding stage.Its the same old story as soon as we get close we self destruct & start eating our own. I know everyone is frustrated & so am I, but the culture of the club has reared its ugly head yet again & we need to unite as a club instead of the RB-GT-RL s*** which is just a distraction to what we all here for " A St.Kilda premiership". Too many people want to push their own barrow & when you have divisions in the club you will never acheive the ultimate success.

[The_Dud]

we'll never go anywhere with Lyon leading the club

anyone that doesn't see the link between him coming from an ultra defensive club to us being one of, if not the lowest scoring club in the last 2 years, is in dream land

[meher baba]

This has been a good thread IMO because the Thomas-bashers have largely stayed away. So we haven't had the endless crap about "GT ruined the list" that we usually get on this sort of thread

Those of us who are not Thomas-bashers are able to look at the question of what to do about Lyon in an objective way.

There have been signs lately that he was starting to get it together, and I - along with, I note, Jeff Dunne - are now more inclined to keep him than not

The basic problem with Lyon is that, after two seasons, he still doesn't look half as good a coach as GT. So the whole premise behind sacking GT and bringing in Lyon has been conclusively disproved

Let's face it, a truly promising coach would have been able, in his second season, to get us across the line and into the top 4 against the decimated Pies last Saturday. Paul Roos and Neil Craig achieved this sort of feat at this point in their coaching careers. So Lyon aint that promising really, is he?

But sacking Lyon now begs the question of who we would get to replace him

Williams would be terrific, but my gut feeling is that - if he were to come to Melbourne - it would probably be to a top team like the Bombers or the Pies

So were stuck with Lyon, and will have to do what we can to make him a better coach: eg, by appointing a mentor

As so many have said, long-term coaching stability is one of the keys to success at any professional sporting club

So, every week that goes by, the events of Sept 2006 just look more and more ridiculous

No wonder the GT bashers have gone quiet lately!!

[WinnersOnly]

LYON has absolutley no footballing persona - he is exciting to listen to as a Catholic Priest giving a sermon.

He and his match committees player management and selections since he began have been atrociuos.

Yes he has brought in some older players to gap fill fill which haven't cost us a lot in terms of draft selections.

But ask yourself this question? Would any of these players get a game in the top 2 sides this year? Remember all of these players were not wanted by their former clubs.

As a club we would have been better off finishing lower on the ladder in the past two years because LYON has been kidding himself thinking he can coach. At least we would have had improved draft choices, for the next coach to develop.

The teams lack of consistency and effort are his doing and his alone!

Who of our substantive list have improved under LYON. Not one and in a number of cases they have gone backwards...

IMO the guy has improved the player support structures, but as a football and match day coach he has been very poor! Hopefully he can turn it around or make may for someone who can!

[bigcarl]

So were stuck with Lyon, and will have to do what we can to make him a better coach: eg, by appointing a mentor

GT might do it in his spare time if we asked him nicely

[JeffDunne]

Who of our substantive list have improved under LYON. Not one and in a number of cases they have gone backwards...

I shared this view earlier in the year but I think we can now claim a couple.

Blake - he's definately improved.
McQualter - he's improved.

Some others are borderline. I actually think Roo's improved as a footballer but I wouldn't credit Lyon with that.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Who of our substantive list have improved under LYON. Not one and in a number of cases they have gone backwards...

I shared this view earlier in the year but I think we can now claim a couple.

Blake - he's definately improved.
McQualter - he's improved.

Some others are borderline. I actually think Roo's improved as a footballer but I wouldn't credit Lyon with that.

I think we can add Gram to the list as well, playing the role that he appeared destined for in his first games with the Saints (I was convinced he was snakebit for a while. He'd get his chance when a mid went down, play a couple of good games, then get hurt himself).

Clinton Jones wasn't around pre-Lyon, but his improvement last year to this is considerable.

I'm not sure that the forward/backward list favours Lyon, but it's looking much better than it was earlier in the year.

[JeffDunne]

Gram did occur to me. Not convinced he's more important to us now compared to two years ago. TBH I thought Ross was slow to move him up the ground once teams had figured him out.

There's no question Ross has improved the structure defensively. We don't allow teams to blow us away in a quarter like we did in the past. He's done bugger all in terms of improving our forward structure tough, but in fairness it was broken when he got here.

He's shown enough to know he's a competent coach.

All we need is for him to decide he wants to be seen as a great coach.

[maverick]

Who of our substantive list have improved under LYON. Not one and in a number of cases they have gone backwards...

I shared this view earlier in the year but I think we can now claim a couple.

Blake - he's definately improved.
McQualter - he's improved.

Some others are borderline. I actually think Roo's improved as a footballer but I wouldn't credit Lyon with that.

Not sure Blake has improved - I reckon he was this solid in 05 & 06, I think he looks better because others have come back to him.

Mini - maybe.

Roo should be improving, he is coming into his peak now.

Not sure many others have improved, no one has taken the next step, many have gone backwards...

I am in the club of I don't think RL can coach, but sadly agree with a few others that we will fail to attract anyone of substance to replace him, meaning we may be stuck with him.

[Teflon]

Wayne, slagging GT doesn't make Lyon a better coach.

I wish you and others would come to realise that.

Nor does applying rose colored glasses and overlooking GT's mistakes (god knows he ended up with more destructive relationships with his own Board/AFL than anyone in history...) make him a better coach...but thats history so you keep telling us before raising it again...

[Teflon]

Gram did occur to me. Not convinced he's more important to us now compared to two years ago. TBH I thought Ross was slow to move him up the ground once teams had figured him out.

There's no question Ross has improved the structure defensively. We don't allow teams to blow us away in a quarter like we did in the past. He's done bugger all in terms of improving our forward structure tough, but in fairness it was broken when he got here.

He's shown enough to know he's a competent coach.

All we need is for him to decide he wants to be seen as a great coach.

agree.

[Teflon]

Sounds to me like St Kilda have been panicing since 1966, and the further in the past the one flag got, the more the panic set in.

Short term fix after short term fix.
Recycled has been players after recycled has been players.
Coach sacking after coach sacking.
Board after board.

Well...you get the idea.

I'm sick of typing this in endless responses, but surely we need to stop the panic, suck it up, and have the balls to implement a 5-10 year plan and not just a series of 2 year plans?

Isn't it sad that at a paltry 4 years, GT was our second longest serving coach? Doesn't that say something about our culture, and point to why we fail all the time?

This board need to be in it for 10 years at least. This coach need to be there with them. End of story.

As to why Lyon went initially for the short term fix? Before he took the job, no doubt he looked from the outside in at the St Kilda list and thought like most of the country that we were capable of winning a flag and he thought he might just need to do some tweaking. Now he hopefully realises we are a paper tiger and will go for the long term option of redeveloping the list with the emphasis on youth.

History is full of unpopular decisions at the time that prooved to be right in the end. Hopefully the board has a set of gonads between them....

THE best post on this thread.

[WayneJudson42]

This has been a good thread IMO because the Thomas-bashers have largely stayed away. So we haven't had the endless crap about "GT ruined the list" that we usually get on this sort of thread

Those of us who are not Thomas-bashers are able to look at the question of what to do about Lyon in an objective way.

There have been signs lately that he was starting to get it together, and I - along with, I note, Jeff Dunne - are now more inclined to keep him than not

The basic problem with Lyon is that, after two seasons, he still doesn't look half as good a coach as GT. So the whole premise behind sacking GT and bringing in Lyon has been conclusively disproved

Let's face it, a truly promising coach would have been able, in his second season, to get us across the line and into the top 4 against the decimated Pies last Saturday. Paul Roos and Neil Craig achieved this sort of feat at this point in their coaching careers. So Lyon aint that promising really, is he?

But sacking Lyon now begs the question of who we would get to replace him

Williams would be terrific, but my gut feeling is that - if he were to come to Melbourne - it would probably be to a top team like the Bombers or the Pies

So were stuck with Lyon, and will have to do what we can to make him a better coach: eg, by appointing a mentor

As so many have said, long-term coaching stability is one of the keys to success at any professional sporting club

So, every week that goes by, the events of Sept 2006 just look more and more ridiculous

No wonder the GT bashers have gone quiet lately!!

You are a fairdinkum tool. Your objective and "balanced" views are more lopsided that the Titanic was before she went down.

Those of us that aren't GT bashers? WTF? So now you have a superior intelligence to anyone who disagrees with your view?

FFS, you would have to be the founding member, President and #1 ticket holder of the Sack Lyon Club. And yet you're objective... That's about as believeable as Johnny Howard saying he wants to co operate with the ACTU

So now that things aren't going too well, you stick you're head up again with this condescending holier-than-thou crap?

Same old comparisons with GT Please bring some fresh intelligence to the table. Disporoved? Who cares. You insult the GT bashers, yet still rehash the same tired old one liner ffs.

On the one hand, you're inclined to keep him, but then again he's crap? Make up you're mind.

Now you want Williams? Gee he's done well this year hasn'y he?

One aspect you overlook in your FGTC (Fantasy GT Coach) world is that both Craig and Roos came in after being associated a long time with the club. RL ain't.

AND, I'll still argue that GT inherited a better list than RL... and GT had better draft choices including BJ who fell into his lap.

So remind me again... how good was GT at the end of year 2??????? A team with Hamill, Gherig, Loewe, Burke, Jones, Everitt, Hall, Voss, Harvey, Lenny, Roo, Kosi... a younger Baker and Thompson??? If you wanna draw comparisons, then we should have been playing finals in 02 and 03.

But I guess you're correct. This is still the same list as 2008 isn't it?

Please refrain from coming on here pretending to like RL and then use the post to stick the knives. It's an insult to my intelligence. I respect you better when you openly state that you want RL sacked.

Give it up, dude. As everyone one of your same old RL sucks go by, you sound more and more ridiculous.

GT is gone. History, not you or I - will judge the 06 sacking as a right or wrong move. If Lyon is the wrong man, time will tell. Until then, try standing by your club, the players, coach and fellow supporters.

[Teflon]

This has been a good thread IMO because the Thomas-bashers have largely stayed away. So we haven't had the endless crap about "GT ruined the list" that we usually get on this sort of thread

Those of us who are not Thomas-bashers are able to look at the question of what to do about Lyon in an objective way.

There have been signs lately that he was starting to get it together, and I - along with, I note, Jeff Dunne - are now more inclined to keep him than not

The basic problem with Lyon is that, after two seasons, he still doesn't look half as good a coach as GT. So the whole premise behind sacking GT and bringing in Lyon has been conclusively disproved

Ahh... the GT bashers cant be objective about Lyon bur the GT lovers can?

There ya have it folks - flog of the year award MB.

The highlight in the post above says it all about your disturbed obsession with all things Grant.....

You offer possibly the worst, subjective drivel Ive ever read on this forum.

Well done.

[The OtherThommo]

Let's not get carried away with the Cats "pure" recruiting history. Anyone remember the Ottens outcry in his first year at Catland? Where did their captain come from, and why couldn't he get a game there? They wanted a small forward and they went for a pigmy from the SANFL. Mooney came from where?

Milburn was an outside hack at 25, now he's a genius in his 30's. Enright, Corey, Wojinski, Johnston (or however ya spell it), and their like were all potted for wasting their talent 2 years ago, when they were 23-25 years old. Ablett was a burst player playing permanently forward at 22, and a God at 23. Bartell was an 8 pick behind the "guns" Judd, Ball and Hodge. Ling was a slow tagger who'd failed as a forward, now he's the midfield king.

They possess the pill more than any other side, when most kept crying for more direct footy. They handball more than any other side. They played flooding, defensive football for 3 years. They play with 1 big forward most of the time, when most reckon you have to have more. Individually they lack leg speed, when everyone demands a squad of Utain Bolts (s*** can he run). They've turned an Andrew Mackie from a HFF into a versatile defender who can play tall on the best or small on the quickest. They draft hacks in their 20's from the WAFL and they slot in as able key defenders who can kick goals from outside 50 on their less preferred side.

They play the press game, such as Harley potting Freo for playing nasty footy and targeting players, when that is EXACTLY what Geelong did v us earlier this year, when X was picked off, Dal was whacked off the ball and Monty had his legs kicked out from under him.

Everything has come together for them. It's all clicked. Their mid 20's players have gelled together. Us? We're watching Kosi have another year where he won't finish top 10 in the B&F, as per every year since his first. Lyon is having to defend Dal Santo in the press because he is painfully inconsistent in his effort (tonsils + footy show = Huh?). Fisher butchers the footy, so does Gram, Milne's from another era, Gilbert's development slowed through injury, Monty can't shake tags, Roo's conversion is rocky, the Clarkes have had a horror run, Armitage gets puffed after 15 minutes playing forward, Goose can't get on the ground, Jones can't kick, and on and on it goes.

And, that is exactly how Geelong were being talked about 2 years ago, under the same coach, with the same CEO, same president, when they failed to make the finals. What's the key? I've got no idea, except that it ain't simple. There's something intangible, something that relies on basic faith, that has made a major contribution to Geelong's unbelievable transformation. And, it is unbelievable, because who in the world tipped that they would be transformed from a mid table bunch of under acheivers into a mob that's only lost 2 in their last 40 odd? No bastard, that's who.

The only thing that stands out is they stuck phat. Yep, they reviewed, consulted, reworked, but they stuck phat. I've got no clue as to how much that has mattered, but they did and the rest is history.

[brewski]

Game plan is no good too negative, we have 2 of the cleanest marking forwards in the comp but it takes 2 weeks to get down there by this time our forward line is very congested.

i would love to see the players given more licence to take games on and not be canned for not doing the team thing all the time, how many times do we see midfielders streaming towards goal get about 45 out and look to give it off or sky the ball 200 metres in the air, its like they are scared to f&%k up

Play the kids and tell them to make there mark show us what they can do, i would rather lose having a red hot crack playing exciting footy then the way we are going now.

Also play some other young players how many times do we need to play Gwilt and McQualter to realise they are not up to this level of footy

[meher baba]

This has been a good thread IMO because the Thomas-bashers have largely stayed away. So we haven't had the endless crap about "GT ruined the list" that we usually get on this sort of thread

Those of us who are not Thomas-bashers are able to look at the question of what to do about Lyon in an objective way.

There have been signs lately that he was starting to get it together, and I - along with, I note, Jeff Dunne - are now more inclined to keep him than not

The basic problem with Lyon is that, after two seasons, he still doesn't look half as good a coach as GT. So the whole premise behind sacking GT and bringing in Lyon has been conclusively disproved

Ahh... the GT bashers cant be objective about Lyon bur the GT lovers can?

You offer possibly the worst, subjective drivel Ive ever read on this f

Teffers, you wouldn't understand what objectivity meant if your life depended on it

Don't try to tax your mind too much trying to understand what it feels like to have opinions that aren't based on an irrational resentment and hatred of someone who never did you personally any harm (or am I wrong about that too, Cam?)