Perspective Please...

[maverick]

Not sure Milney will ever make a back pocket but he did try something as some losers want on here. I reckon getting pissed before a game maybe a good idea as well. We haven done that since the Saints Disco in the 80's.

Or we can keep things the same as other losers on here want

There are MOVES and there are MOVES...
Joey to a back pocket is good punishment for an outside player clearly struggling to get a kick....Milne there is stupid....

BJ and Gram into the midfield and half forward are moves worth trying....

[maverick]

Oh and that pace issue ... isn't that a selection issue combined with a coaching instruction issue re holding the ball up rather than playing on?

Do point out thet stockpile of pace we have in reserve just waiting to be called up?

Birss? or Armo?...

You will stick up for RL what ever happens I will say why did we sack a coach with GT record but please explain what this guy does that you think will get us to the next step because I cannot see it.

You miss the point but take a number and get in line.

I owe Ross Lyon nothing - I as much as the next supporter will help him pack if hes deemed to not be able to coach.

Hes had 1.5 yrs and is a rookie coach with a list IMO that requires changes. Thomas had 5 and performed well earlty and helped stabilise our club but then started a war with the Board and wanted to take over Russia and call it Thomasville. And hes still going.

If you feel Grant should still be coach - good luck to you. Im glad hes gone as I dont believe as a coach he could develop players - and Im not talking about Nick Riewoldts.

Big difference.

I would still like to assess Lyon at season end - if hes not playing kids, still recyclibng Fiora then he should move.

But I wont jumpon that bandwagon cause a few nervous nellies say its time only to have us start again and be totally labelled as rabble.

So how long would you have given Watson, he had 2 years and one draft as well.

[BackFromUSA]

for the record I did not say / think we should sack Lyon.

Actually he is entitled to see out his contract - just as I feel GT was ...

BUT at years end LYON should assess what he has achieved or not and whether he feels that he can turn it around for 2009 (maybe he can with better more experienced assistants and a new commitment to attacking footy and a summer to train for the new gameplan) and if not then he should do the right thing and step aside.

Watson did it.

He has widespread respect for making a hard decision.

Whatever happens the assitants (maybe except Rock) have to go.

[Teflon]

i am insulted that you found the tone of my first post insulting!

ok so I think I understand now ... it is the players fault for not putting in enough effort and have some sort of mental block!

OK so now that is all cleared up, I can go to bed.

And just for the record ... the players in their prime (see BigMarto's post) are very good AFL footballers who played brilliantly well 2004-6 and have had very poor 2007 and 2008 to date by the standards they set in those years. I do not include X or Raph in that as I have never rated either.

Oh ok,......so we finished 8th in 2006 and were sliding so IMO we had 2 good years in 04/05 with these players and you forgot to mention (while you were giving GT injury credits) how was Lyons 2007 injury run? many said much worse (GT said it himself cause he mentioned Lyon lost his midfield - something Thomas was able to keep on the park)...I guess that doesnt suit your line of argument to acknowlege that?

night.

And this year is caused through? GT fault if you ask me.

Im still waiting for you to elaborate on how this year is GT's fault plugger....its an intriguing commment..

It is called sarcasm.

well I wasnt expecting anything in terms of depth.......although I had an inkling you were trying your "so cool cause I occasionaly get an inside rumour right" attitude on....

[n1ck]

Remember, when the team coached itself?

...yep, when the kids had fun and played naturally.

Tho it did come after a couple of shocker years, proving the window shut theory can be smashed easily with a hot blast of confidence. Can RL deliver that confidence? We'll see. We aint on the bottom, so I doubt the board will dump the coach before his time is up.

ok, my biggest fear.
Some players will lose the faith all together and ask to be traded. In a losing climate not many good players would want to come here. Plus the draft will be slim due to the 2 teams from "thin-air". Hence we could find ourselves in a very dire situation and a couple of years. We are starring perennial bottom 4 down the barrel.

I hate to put even more pressure on the lads, but it's now or never for the Saints. We MUST have Fortius Quo Fidelius. We MUST believe.

90% of footy is played between the ears.

Great post.



Great post.

[Winmar7Fan]

Im as dissapointed as anyone with our teams performance but am amazed at the hysterical reactions to a loss many shouldve seen coming weeks ago. Seriously how many expected to beat Sydney in Sydney the way we are currently playing???........did I hear right tonight that we havent beaten em there since 1998 anyway?


We had so many players down who did not play with the effort Luke Ball spoke about in todays Age - Milne ? couple kicks, Ball himself (hes entitled to an off one surely), Harvs?- how often you see it?, Montagna (did this guy even play????), Gwilt?, Geary?. You cant win games of football carrying so many...

We had 1 fwd option. When Lyon attempts to change that and stretch Sydeny in the 3rd qtr we kick 5 goals and at the 26 min mark are within 11 pts.......we lose our only other tall option in Gardiner to a hammy and King hurts his knee? FFS. Not to mention LAME and LAZY player efforts in the last 4 mins allow Sydney to kick 3 goals and put the lead back out to 20+.......that aint game plan......thats effort.

No one enjoys losing but face facts we aint winning squat this year. As mentioned tonight on TV Luke Ball's article today spoke of a guy who does put in the effort and who knows to much is currently being carried at St Kilda by too few......and he sounds frustrated (and so should Hayes).

In the past thats been ok....individual brilliance of a Gehrig or Hamill or Riewoldt himself or Harvs, Hayes etc etc got us by and many others were able to come along for the ride.....now these guys are being asked to stand up and failing miserably. Im amazed Gram (who played a good second half) has been found as wanting as he has this year. And many thought Montagna had become "elite" - has he really? (his tackle rate is 3 per game - Hayes/Ball are around 6.5...). Look at the Dogs - has Cooney taken the next step? Cross? Morris??????........yep and now they no longer RELY on West like we still do Harvey. Not only do they share the workload (Sydney also had 9 seperate goal kickers tonight...hardly rely on Hall) but Eade has clearly spent the last few years shaping a side that KNOWS ist about to lose the likes of Grant, Smith, West etc etc...and hes now bridged that gap.

Anyone who thinks we have this "mix" right now or that magically Ross Lyon is gonna flick a switch and just turn on brillaince is deluded. We have some pain ahead and changes to make....I just hope we hold our nerve for once...

Good Post

[Shaggy]

Im as dissapointed as anyone with our teams performance but am amazed at the hysterical reactions to a loss many shouldve seen coming weeks ago. Seriously how many expected to beat Sydney in Sydney the way we are currently playing???........did I hear right tonight that we havent beaten em there since 1998 anyway?


We had so many players down who did not play with the effort Luke Ball spoke about in todays Age - Milne ? couple kicks, Ball himself (hes entitled to an off one surely), Harvs?- how often you see it?, Montagna (did this guy even play????), Gwilt?, Geary?. You cant win games of football carrying so many...

We had 1 fwd option. When Lyon attempts to change that and stretch Sydeny in the 3rd qtr we kick 5 goals and at the 26 min mark are within 11 pts.......we lose our only other tall option in Gardiner to a hammy and King hurts his knee? FFS. Not to mention LAME and LAZY player efforts in the last 4 mins allow Sydney to kick 3 goals and put the lead back out to 20+.......that aint game plan......thats effort.

No one enjoys losing but face facts we aint winning squat this year. As mentioned tonight on TV Luke Ball's article today spoke of a guy who does put in the effort and who knows to much is currently being carried at St Kilda by too few......and he sounds frustrated (and so should Hayes).

In the past thats been ok....individual brilliance of a Gehrig or Hamill or Riewoldt himself or Harvs, Hayes etc etc got us by and many others were able to come along for the ride.....now these guys are being asked to stand up and failing miserably. Im amazed Gram (who played a good second half) has been found as wanting as he has this year. And many thought Montagna had become "elite" - has he really? (his tackle rate is 3 per game - Hayes/Ball are around 6.5...). Look at the Dogs - has Cooney taken the next step? Cross? Morris??????........yep and now they no longer RELY on West like we still do Harvey. Not only do they share the workload (Sydney also had 9 seperate goal kickers tonight...hardly rely on Hall) but Eade has clearly spent the last few years shaping a side that KNOWS ist about to lose the likes of Grant, Smith, West etc etc...and hes now bridged that gap.

Anyone who thinks we have this "mix" right now or that magically Ross Lyon is gonna flick a switch and just turn on brillaince is deluded. We have some pain ahead and changes to make....I just hope we hold our nerve for once...

Good Post

No. Its a terrible post.

Teflon is effectively saying we are finished.

I don't believe that.

[rodgerfox]

hmmm calling me a drama queen. nice one.

in my honest opinion the list is in BETTER shape than 2004 / 5 / 6 because the core of the list is in the sweet spot you want it to be 22 - 28.

They are simply poorly coached.

And selection decisions do make a huge difference to a game.

I agree with this.

[rodgerfox]

Remember, when the team coached itself?

...yep, when the kids had fun and played naturally.

Tho it did come after a couple of shocker years, proving the window shut theory can be smashed easily with a hot blast of confidence.

I just see the differences between when GT took over, as to when Lyon took over as so fundamenatlly different, that it angers me that our own supporters look to compare the two situations.

GT took 2.5 years to get something going. True.

He had a team of children playing KPs, at a club which had just spent 5 years at the bottom of the ladder as a rabble. On and off the field.

We were a joke. The press gave GT nothing. Ther was an article every day in various newspapers, dedicated entirely to potting Thomas. Every single day.

Then there was the M&M 'thing' aswell.


Lyon took over a team, with it's core of players, peaking physically and mentally in terms of experience and age. A team which had just completed it's 3rd straight year in the finals. A team which had just won 16 games, 14 games, and 14 games in the previous 3 years.

We were a very, very good football side.

Why does Lyon deserve any time? Really, he took on the role. No gun was held to his head. He took the role, and accepts his paycheck for it. IF the club hired him, based on him saying 'this team will be a basket case for the next 5 years whilst I stamp my own mark on it as they are so bad we have to start from scratch', then Ok - give him time.

But if we did hire a coach who said that at an interview, we should take out civil action against the previous Board for gross negligence.


Lyon, like Butterss and all the 'experts' - including the footballing gurus on here, knew then that our list was very good. All we needed was a decent coach - or any coach other than GT, to win the flag.


Why does Lyon 'deserve' more time? Why do compare the situations when Gt took over, to what Lyon has inherited?

[matrix]

well friggin put rogerfox.

[barks4eva]

Ratten will be talked about as a great coach soon, because Carlton are on the rise ONLY because thay have many great young kids coming through because of early draft selections.

SFA to do with who's coaching really.

Does this really mean that he's a great coach?

How good would Ratten be if he was coaching St.Kilda's list now?

He'd be ordinary, because we are ordinary.

Same applies to Thomas with what he inherited in 2001,2001 and 2002.

Our rise up the ladder was inevitable and guaranteed from the draft, had SFA to do with who was coaching.

More to do with what cattle you have coming through.

Fact is coaches and game plans are overrated.

Any game plan can work even a clayton's one, if you have the cattle.

Coaches can make a difference, but not to the degree that we all bang on about.

Fact is if you don't have the cattle, any game plan means squat.

If Ross Lyon was coaching carlton now, they'd probably be talking about him in the same way they mention Ratten and vica versa.

Right now we do not have the cattle.

How good a coach would Alistair Clarkson be at St.Kilda now, he'd be ordinary and we'd most likely be in the same position we are now in.

What is good about Clarkson is that years ago, he went down the path of playing the kids and using their draft picks effectively.

Seriously coaches are overrated, overpaid and over glorified.

[NoMore]

Every one keeps saying we don't have the cattle but ross must have believed we did otherwise he wouldn't have topped up would he.

So don't give me the our list is crap SH!T

[borderbarry]

For those of you who dont believe that a coach makes much difference toa club, consider the years when Terry Daniher coached, the forward line, the back line. The improvement in both.
Maybe Lyon should be given the opportunity to finish his contract, but the assistants should go!

[bob__71]

Ratten will be talked about as a great coach soon, because Carlton are on the rise ONLY because thay have many great young kids coming through because of early draft selections.

SFA to do with who's coaching really.

Does this really mean that he's a great coach?

How good would Ratten be if he was coaching St.Kilda's list now?

He'd be ordinary, because we are ordinary.

Same applies to Thomas with what he inherited in 2001,2001 and 2002.

Our rise up the ladder was inevitable and guaranteed from the draft, had SFA to do with who was coaching.

More to do with what cattle you have coming through.

Fact is coaches and game plans are overrated.

Any game plan can work even a clayton's one, if you have the cattle.

Coaches can make a difference, but not to the degree that we all bang on about.

Fact is if you don't have the cattle, any game plan means squat.

If Ross Lyon was coaching carlton now, they'd probably be talking about him in the same way they mention Ratten and vica versa.

Right now we do not have the cattle.

How good a coach would Alistair Clarkson be at St.Kilda now, he'd be ordinary and we'd most likely be in the same position we are now in.

What is good about Clarkson is that years ago, he went down the path of playing the kids and using their draft picks effectively.

Seriously coaches are overrated, overpaid and over glorified.

I wonder if Ratten will be sacked by Carlton if he gets them to the finals three years in a row.

I dont like Carlton as much as the next bloke....but there are simple reasons why they are winners and we are losers...

[matrix]

so let me get this straight......
if no one sat in the blues coaching box during their game against the pies they would have still won because the side would have coached themselves over the line because coaches are over rated?.

of course carlton are looking good because they tried to cheat the system (and in effect actually have cheated the system when u really think about it) and now have awesome talent coming thru.

to say coaches are over rated is kinda odd barks4eva.
where were carlton not so long ago?
would we have been worried about playing them 6 weeks ago?

yes they have great talent coming thru, but individual talent needds to be coached to learn to play team football.

[congorozides]

Every one keeps saying we don't have the cattle but ross must have believed we did otherwise he wouldn't have topped up would he.

So don't give me the our list is crap SH!T

]


Agree. Rosco Peako cant have it both ways.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Ratten will be talked about as a great coach soon, because Carlton are on the rise ONLY because thay have many great young kids coming through because of early draft selections.

SFA to do with who's coaching really.

Does this really mean that he's a great coach?

How good would Ratten be if he was coaching St.Kilda's list now?

He'd be ordinary, because we are ordinary.

Same applies to Thomas with what he inherited in 2001,2001 and 2002.

Our rise up the ladder was inevitable and guaranteed from the draft, had SFA to do with who was coaching.

More to do with what cattle you have coming through.

Fact is coaches and game plans are overrated.

Any game plan can work even a clayton's one, if you have the cattle.

Coaches can make a difference, but not to the degree that we all bang on about.

Fact is if you don't have the cattle, any game plan means squat.

If Ross Lyon was coaching carlton now, they'd probably be talking about him in the same way they mention Ratten and vica versa.

Right now we do not have the cattle.

How good a coach would Alistair Clarkson be at St.Kilda now, he'd be ordinary and we'd most likely be in the same position we are now in.

What is good about Clarkson is that years ago, he went down the path of playing the kids and using their draft picks effectively.


Seriously coaches are overrated, overpaid and over glorified.

good post mostly

they have had high draft failures too so its not all sunshine down at waverly

ratten is not much chop...he is only back there because the blues have improved a bit...where was he (like most of the blues legends) when the club was on its knees???

the only one that stayed was sticks...and when they win their next flag he should be credited and duly satisfied big time...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Ratten will be talked about as a great coach soon, because Carlton are on the rise ONLY because thay have many great young kids coming through because of early draft selections.

SFA to do with who's coaching really.

Does this really mean that he's a great coach?

How good would Ratten be if he was coaching St.Kilda's list now?

He'd be ordinary, because we are ordinary.

Same applies to Thomas with what he inherited in 2001,2001 and 2002.

Our rise up the ladder was inevitable and guaranteed from the draft, had SFA to do with who was coaching.

More to do with what cattle you have coming through.

Fact is coaches and game plans are overrated.

Any game plan can work even a clayton's one, if you have the cattle.

And I'll bet that by year 3-5, Ratten's learned a lot of lessons along with his group that make him a better coach than he is now.

People here "bang on" about Thomas as if he didn't learn anything in the time he was in the job. Nobody tends to argue he wasn't a great candidate at the time he was handed control, and that he probably retained it longer than expected.... by the end of his tenure, he's got better coaching credentials than just about any other unemployed coach without a premiership to his name (Sheedy, Pagan et al)...

Ratten is more motivator than tactician right now - which isn't a bad start.

I would have seriosuly thought that the decline of the Saints list post-Thomas would have put to bed the old chestnut of a team being able to win regardless of coach...

But I suppose some have found a nice basket to put all their eggs in...

[SaintHomer]

Can't you you get over the fact that maybe the players aren't good enough.

At present it appears that way. What about Cats, wasn't long ago they were hopeless... and the dawks.

Our players are good enough, they simply need an big injection of confidence.

that's exactly right.

i was talking to a mate (one eyed cats supporter) who works for sportsbet the other week. round two last year (after the cats were beaten by the dogs in round 1), bomber thompson was short priced favourite to get the sack. 12 months on, you can write your own odds, he aint going anywhere. virtually same list.

i think it was barrassi who said that the game was played above the shoulders.

[mischa]

I just see the differences between when GT took over, as to when Lyon took over as so fundamenatlly different, that it angers me that our own supporters look to compare the two situations.

GT took 2.5 years to get something going. True.

He had a team of children playing KPs, at a club which had just spent 5 years at the bottom of the ladder as a rabble. On and off the field.

We were a joke. The press gave GT nothing. Ther was an article every day in various newspapers, dedicated entirely to potting Thomas. Every single day.

Then there was the M&M 'thing' aswell.


Lyon took over a team, with it's core of players, peaking physically and mentally in terms of experience and age. A team which had just completed it's 3rd straight year in the finals. A team which had just won 16 games, 14 games, and 14 games in the previous 3 years.

We were a very, very good football side.

Why does Lyon deserve any time? Really, he took on the role. No gun was held to his head. He took the role, and accepts his paycheck for it. IF the club hired him, based on him saying 'this team will be a basket case for the next 5 years whilst I stamp my own mark on it as they are so bad we have to start from scratch', then Ok - give him time.

But if we did hire a coach who said that at an interview, we should take out civil action against the previous Board for gross negligence.


Lyon, like Butterss and all the 'experts' - including the footballing gurus on here, knew then that our list was very good. All we needed was a decent coach - or any coach other than GT, to win the flag.


Why does Lyon 'deserve' more time? Why do compare the situations when Gt took over, to what Lyon has inherited?

Great post. Agree with every sentiment. But don't you know GT didn't have to develop any player or turn a basket case club (Watson,Blight) around with next to little or no support GT was blessed don't ya know RL despite not applying and waiting for weeks before being approached by Walls has had to put up with the most horrendous circumstances a 'newbie' coach could ever find themselves in. He's got easily the worst list in the competition-based on years of negelect And the players are so repulsive that "they're not playing the way we want them to" (R.Lyon) don't ya know Ross Lyon's is the toughest gig in the AFL so of course we'll all show him the kind of love and support and nuture the great man 'Wallsy" and his sycophants (oh I mean supporters) knows he deserves.

[Teflon]

People here "bang on" about Thomas as if he didn't learn anything in the time he was in the job. Nobody tends to argue he wasn't a great candidate at the time he was handed control, and that he probably retained it longer than expected.... by the end of his tenure, he's got better coaching credentials than just about any other unemployed coach without a premiership to his name (Sheedy, Pagan et al)...
But I suppose some have found a nice basket to put all their eggs in...

Such a great coach - better records than many and yet with 4 AFL clubs looking for coaches recently he couldnt get a gig and didnt even rate a mention as a potential candidate?

I guess there will be a way to dismiss that......none of them related to the facts the football world dont rate the guy...

Some may have a nice basket for eggs......or just a better grasp on reality....its based on your perspective I guess......

[Teflon]

Im as dissapointed as anyone with our teams performance but am amazed at the hysterical reactions to a loss many shouldve seen coming weeks ago. Seriously how many expected to beat Sydney in Sydney the way we are currently playing???........did I hear right tonight that we havent beaten em there since 1998 anyway?


We had so many players down who did not play with the effort Luke Ball spoke about in todays Age - Milne ? couple kicks, Ball himself (hes entitled to an off one surely), Harvs?- how often you see it?, Montagna (did this guy even play????), Gwilt?, Geary?. You cant win games of football carrying so many...

We had 1 fwd option. When Lyon attempts to change that and stretch Sydeny in the 3rd qtr we kick 5 goals and at the 26 min mark are within 11 pts.......we lose our only other tall option in Gardiner to a hammy and King hurts his knee? FFS. Not to mention LAME and LAZY player efforts in the last 4 mins allow Sydney to kick 3 goals and put the lead back out to 20+.......that aint game plan......thats effort.

No one enjoys losing but face facts we aint winning squat this year. As mentioned tonight on TV Luke Ball's article today spoke of a guy who does put in the effort and who knows to much is currently being carried at St Kilda by too few......and he sounds frustrated (and so should Hayes).

In the past thats been ok....individual brilliance of a Gehrig or Hamill or Riewoldt himself or Harvs, Hayes etc etc got us by and many others were able to come along for the ride.....now these guys are being asked to stand up and failing miserably. Im amazed Gram (who played a good second half) has been found as wanting as he has this year. And many thought Montagna had become "elite" - has he really? (his tackle rate is 3 per game - Hayes/Ball are around 6.5...). Look at the Dogs - has Cooney taken the next step? Cross? Morris??????........yep and now they no longer RELY on West like we still do Harvey. Not only do they share the workload (Sydney also had 9 seperate goal kickers tonight...hardly rely on Hall) but Eade has clearly spent the last few years shaping a side that KNOWS ist about to lose the likes of Grant, Smith, West etc etc...and hes now bridged that gap.

Anyone who thinks we have this "mix" right now or that magically Ross Lyon is gonna flick a switch and just turn on brillaince is deluded. We have some pain ahead and changes to make....I just hope we hold our nerve for once...

Good Post

No. Its a terrible post.

Teflon is effectively saying we are finished.

I don't believe that.

Rubbish Im not saying that at all.

Im saying we need changes. Geelong did it in 06 to great effect...our run given the timing is that much harder.

Regardless, its my view......it differs from yours so what/?....that doesnt make your view "terrible"... just wrong...

[Shaggy]

No. Its a terrible post.

Teflon is effectively saying we are finished.

I don't believe that.

Rubbish Im not saying that at all.

Im saying we need changes. Geelong did it in 06 to great effect...our run given the timing is that much harder.

Regardless, its my view......it differs from yours so what/?....that doesnt make your view "terrible"... just wrong...

2 years ago you wanted a change of coach and you got it. Now you want the players to be changed also.

Geelong did not change anything except processes and focusing the coach purely on the footy which we also did this year. Selwood was the only new kid to make a difference to their 2006 team.

For whatever reason you seem to want the Saints to start again with no basis for looking forward except trust in a rebuild. Its the opposite approach Geelong took.

[congorozides]

i think the lesson shouldbe the club is bigger than the players and coaches.we should not be in the cycle of rest - disruptio - rest -disruption.
where we coast for a few years then a have radical change. we should be constantly changing. and the core business for a footy club is developing footy players. we have not done much of that in the last 5 years and now we are havinga panic attack.

no matter who the list is or who the coach is we whould always be developing new players. like a production line.

you dont see GM or ford or stopping production for a few years then trying to turn the factories on full blast every 4 or 5 years. thats how the saints operate a business. whether we are top or bottom you should never stop the production/development business. i thikn this is how the pies/crows/power seem to operate.

[Otiman]

We have not done much of that in the last 5 years and now we are havinga panic attack.

This is a key point right here.