Ross Lyon after today

[samoht]

What I am not happy about is simplistic blaming of a coach and absolving the players of any blame.

Welcome to page 11 !

So how should we be apportioning blame for our lack of defensive pressure in our forward line in 2010 and 2011?
We went through games in 2010 and 2011 where we only had 1 or 2 defensive tackles in our forward line, where as soon as the ball hit the turf, it was rebounded at will 9 times out of 10.

Do we blame bad coaching or are our players solely to blame for that? Both?

SW actually improved us in this area in his first year - also improved our percentage by 20%, and arrested our rapid decline!
A first year coach!

[matrix]

what was balls on field time in mins again?

[Johnny Member]

Also just worth noting that in 09 we had 8 All Australian nominated for the squad, and ended up with 5 in the team including the captain!


That's no average team or list.


In 2007 we had 3 in the squad - finished 9th.
In 2008 we had 4 in the squad - finished 4th.
In 2009 we had 8 in the squad - finished 1st.
In 2010 we had 4 in the squad - finished 3nd.
In 2011 we had 2 in the squad - finished 7th.


Freo...

In 2010 (pre-Lyon) they had 3 in the squad - finished 6th.
In 2011 (pre-Lyon) they had 2 in the squad - finished 11th.
In 2012 they had 2 in the squad - finished 7th.
In 2013 they had 5 in the squad - finished 3rd.
In 2014 they had 3 in the squad - finished 4th.


I found this relatively interesting.

[Scollop]

Ross Lyon after the loss to the Bombers -April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Really disappointed for Nick, for our supporters.
Clearly something is going on - we introduced 5 new players tonight. We tried for some enthusiasm but it's still not kicking in.
We've been under pressure before.

This group has been to 5 Prelims and 2 GF's under me and it's a lot of Prelims ultimately falling short.

Maybe it is transition phase now. I could easily pick for honesty Jason Blake, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy. On the back of their honesty and discipline we have been able to manufacture a lot of wins over a long period. They have been so disciplined over a long period, people ask me why I pick those guys, they have helped create a combative team.
At the minute without Baker and Blake there are a few playing without
honesty and selflessness.

Maybe it's a full transition and rebuild. Maybe I've been in denial. Maybe we've climbed the mountain too many times and we need to regenerate.
Or alternatively we keep picking the disciplined players and try and shine with them again.
I've got to go away and contemplate and make that decision now.

We have 30 shots last week, we couldn't defend. We couldn't defend today. If you don't perform in the AFL, you become yesterday's heroes pretty quickly.

Confidence is built on action and preparation mental and physical. Those basic fabrics of team sport aren't there when they need to be.

Where the modern game is at is stopping it at centre forward and locking it in there up forward.
And yet tonight we have zero F50 tackles. None.

So what I'm saying is it's demanding and our hunger isn't there. At the moment if you want to get a kick and an uncontested mark, come and play against the Saints."

That speech made me angry

Imo it sent the wrong message to the seniors players. It not only tainted them but at the same time it gave them a superiority complex which didn't help the youngsters on our list. That was my perception.

It was a defeatist attitude and a negative speech by a coach battling his own demons who were whispering in his head that it was 'the end of an era.' I thought hang on mate. Why can't you help develop and build confidence in the youngsters and why can't the team reboot and go again in 2012?

Ross Lyon failed in the GF like so many before him but more importantly as a coach he failed dismally when it came to development of young talent. I also believe the board and recruiting departments under Lyon were drunk on kool aid and we would have always been better off trying young blokes in the team and recruiting young blokes instead of recycled players.

If Watters can be given credit for anything it's definitely the way he embraced the youth and helped them become better footballers. Watters may have upset a few of our senior players and of course he said the wrong things at times but ultimately he wanted the team to move on and aim high. He certainly knew that for the sake of the football clubs future the youth would need to drive our chance of future success. That hasn't changed

[samoht]

Ross Lyon after the loss to the Bombers -April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Good find, scollop.
There we have it, no F50 tackles to three quarter time, we overhandballed and were not handballing to create a kicker.
We were shown up by a less-credentialed, but nevertheless better prepared and better-drilled team in Essendon.

This typified where we were at and where we were fast heading under RL!

[plugger66]

Also just worth noting that in 09 we had 8 All Australian nominated for the squad, and ended up with 5 in the team including the captain!


That's no average team or list.


In 2007 we had 3 in the squad - finished 9th.
In 2008 we had 4 in the squad - finished 4th.
In 2009 we had 8 in the squad - finished 1st.
In 2010 we had 4 in the squad - finished 3nd.
In 2011 we had 2 in the squad - finished 7th.


Freo...

In 2010 (pre-Lyon) they had 3 in the squad - finished 6th.
In 2011 (pre-Lyon) they had 2 in the squad - finished 11th.
In 2012 they had 2 in the squad - finished 7th.
In 2013 they had 5 in the squad - finished 3rd.
In 2014 they had 3 in the squad - finished 4th.


I found this relatively interesting.

Does the squad suit your arguement better than the actual side? Looks like he improves players by those lists so yes interesting. Its also worth nothing all sides that have beaten RL have had more AA in the actual team than his side. Anyone who thought Freo had the second best list last year is smoking something I want. Where were these RL haters in 09 and 10. they werent commenting till after the event. A hell of a lot of hindsight specialists on here and by the way JM only 1 person have called RL a genius on here but if it helps keep calling him that. Anyway keep going. I find the hatred fascinating. If they lose this week this could go to 40 pages of hatred. I will live with the fact that he was coach in the best 2 weeks of my Saints supporting life because unlike some other sides we dont win flags so we have to hang our hat on other things. The other option is to go around bagging the same bloke because he didnt look to the future. Again I will state we probably recruited better in RL first 3 years that GT last 3 years. And yes we lost Ball for nothing and picked up Lovett under RL but to those who foget easily we lost Guerra for nothing and recruited Brookes and Watts for very high picks under GT. Yep its amazing what we can blank out when bias is around. Anyway I think you haters will have more fun this week because Freo may struggle with their injuries. Thats can be an excuse because it was always used when GT coached.

[plugger66]

Ross Lyon after the loss to the Bombers -April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Good find, scollop.
There we have it, no F50 tackles to three quarter time, we overhandballed and were not handballing to create a kicker.
We were shown up by a less-credentialed, but nevertheless better prepared and better-drilled team in Essendon.

This typified where we were at and where we were fast heading under RL!

I forgot about you Samolt. Arent you the guy who said SW was a better coach than RL? Well it seems many clubs dont agree with you.

[matrix]

so we bring up older arguments from a posters opinion over a year ago and link it in to this convo with a sly dig?

lets hope theres a game at the junction one day huh 9seeign as we are having sly digs)

[plugger66]

so we bring up older arguments from a posters opinion over a year ago and link it in to this convo with a sly dig?

lets hope theres a game at the junction one day huh 9seeign as we are having sly digs)

Happy for you to bring up the JO if its relevent. I believe that anyone who rates SW a better coach than RL is relevant to be brought up in this discussion. It isnt a dig when its fact. Anyway matrix I thought I was on ignore. Sorry to bring that up because that was over a year ago. I suggest if you dont like my comment them PM me and save getting off the RL topic. Strange for an ignorer.

[samoht]

I forgot about you Samolt. Arent you the guy who said SW was a better coach than RL? Well it seems many clubs dont agree with you.

I'm not saying SW is a better coach - how can I? - but he did nevertheless improve our defensive F50 tackles, our percentage by 20% - and he also arrested our decline, albeit temporarily.
It's just that RL's time was up - we were going backwards under him - and he knew it. Maybe acknowledging that makes him a great coach too.

[Bunk_Moreland]

So how should we be apportioning blame for our lack of defensive pressure in our forward line in 2010 and 2011?

Loss of Roo in 2010, changes in opposition game plan as well to counter "frontal pressure".

2011, we were shot. Two near GF losses, a team up since late 2003, a summer ruined by scandal.

Do we blame bad coaching or are our players solely to blame for that? Both?

Which year/ In 2010 the game plan was changed when Roo went down. 2011 Ross Lyon was already on the way out.

We were gone as a premiership threat the moment the siren sounded in 2010. The coach, and players were psycholically shot, the list was ageing, the recruitment had been aweful, and the the development non existent

IMHO Lyon should have left after 2010.

SW actually improved us in this area in his first year - also improved our percentage by 20%, and arrested our rapid decline!
A first year coach!

A final spurt of a team going downhill. And how long did he arrest the rapid decline?

Long enough for us to plummet last season, and have him sacked for being a complete and utter dud in 2013.

Which AFL club is Watters coaching at present BTW?

[Bunk_Moreland]

I'm not saying SW is a better coach - how can I? - but he did nevertheless improve our defensive F50 tackles, our percentage by 20% and arrested our decline, albeit temporarily.
It's more that RL's time was up - we were going backwards under him.

I agree his time was up. And with the benefit of hindsight, maybe after the 2010 GF loss.

But at the time that was never going to happen.

[plugger66]

I forgot about you Samolt. Arent you the guy who said SW was a better coach than RL? Well it seems many clubs dont agree with you.

I'm not saying SW is a better coach - how can I? - but he did nevertheless improve our defensive F50 tackles, our percentage by 20% and arrested our decline, albeit temporarily.
It's more that RL's time was up - we were going backwards under him.

I think BM summed it up perfectly. Players were shot and got a new lease of life under the new coach. Unfortunately they worked out the guy was a fruitloop and that is so unfair to fruitloops.

[samoht]

Bunk-Moreland (and plugger)... you're glossing over RL's shortcomings. Whereas he finally acknowledged them, with his "end of an era" statement - and his assessment after the Essendon game in 2011. He knew his time was up!

With due respect.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Bunk-Moreland ... you're glossing over RL's shortcomings. Whereas he finally acknowledged them, with his "end of an era" statement - and his assessment after the Essendon game in 2011.

Thought I was answering your questions?

Couldn't care less about 2011.

When we discuss Lyon at the Saints we discuss 2009 and 2010. We were gone in 2011, we were shot, the players were buggered, Lyon was wrung out, the whole place was just going through the motions.

Add to that Lenny out for the year and it was a nothing year.

We have gone backwards ever since the 2010 drawn GF. 2011 knocked out in the elim final, 2012 misses finals, 2013 bottom three, 2014 wooden spooner.

All some people want to do is soley blame Lyon. It is simplistic claptrap.

Lyon had and has plenty of shortcomings, but he was NOT the only one responsible for the Saints not winning a flag.

I get sick of the simplistic scapegoating and the adulation of flawed players who couldn't get us the flag we all crave.

[samoht]

A coach is only as good as his last year.
We can't always be at the top - but delivering zero or 2 or 3 defensive F50 tackles week after week is not good enough - it's inexcusable!
That's where a good coach makes a difference - or you know it's time for the coach to move on.

[plugger66]

A coach is only as good as his last year.
We can't always be at the top - but delivering zero or 2 or 3 defensive F50 tackles week after week is not good enough - it's inexcusable!
That's where a good coach makes a difference - or you know it's time for the coach to move on.

A coach is as only as good as his last year. Are you serious? That would mean nearly every coach, even the best few ever, arent any good. As for your last statement well the coach moved on so I dont see the issue. Not many on here have said it was a bad move even some have and thats ok. As for statement about short comings well i doubt anyone has ever said RL didnt have short coming just like probably every coach in the AFL has or had.

[SainterK]

Agree.

Coach and players responsible for output.

He selected those guys, they said they were up to it.

Should he have selected a cooked bakes, should bakes have put up his hand and admitted he wasn't up to it?

Should he have selected Eddy broken bones and all, should Eddy of said he wasn't right?

Should had have played Roo with a torn adductor, was Roo right in himself?

More examples.

Lies somewhere in the middle...

[plugger66]

Agree.

Coach and players responsible for output.

He selected those guys, they said they were up to it.

Should he have selected a cooked bakes, should bakes have put up his hand and admitted he wasn't up to it?

Should he have selected Eddy broken bones and all, should Eddy of said he wasn't right?

Should had have played Roo with a torn adductor, was Roo right in himself?

More examples.

Lies somewhere in the middle...

I dont think you asked any of those questions at the time though. By the way brisbane won a flag with about 10 guys who wouldnt have played if it wasnt a final. Our depth was terrible back then because we had the SC used up by about 8 players. It was very poor list management and we now see how a good list manager can work a list when you look at the Hawks.

[SainterK]

Bakes only admitted recently that he shouldn't of played.

Only found out Eddy had broken bones last year.

If he'd said after the replay that this stuff had happened, I'd probably have asked the question?

Would you of?

Or you think it's irrelevant?

[plugger66]

Bakes only admitted recently that he shouldn't of played.

Only found out Eddy had broken bones last year.

If he'd said after the replay that this stuff had happened, I'd probably have asked the question?

Would you of?

Or you think it's irrelevant?

I think its irrelevant now. I must say i have never heard bakes say he shouldnt have played. And yes you may have asked the question back then but I also think you would answered it with well RL would know better than us. The thing is we know our players and injuries and the such but because we lost we say its the wrong move. Im guessing that Geelong or the pies also had injuries but because they won it doesnt matter. Steve Johnson played last week and most likely will this week and he can hardly work. Hawkins the same last year.

[samoht]

A coach is as only as good as his last year. Are you serious? That would mean nearly every coach, even the best few ever, arent any good. As for your last statement well the coach moved on so I dont see the issue. Not many on here have said it was a bad move even some have and thats ok. As for statement about short comings well i doubt anyone has ever said RL didnt have short coming just like probably every coach in the AFL has or had.

I'm not measuring the success of a coach simply on the basis of where a team happens to finish year on year.
There are areas which are outside of a coaches control and other things which are not. I only judge on the latter, the things which the coach has control over - and this is independent of where the team happens to finish.
Defensive F50 tackles falls in this area.

It would be unrealistic to expect that RL would have us sitting any higher on the ladder than where we're at right now - so what makes him look great at the moment is what made him look great when we were in our prime - he's in charge of a very talented team.
Maybe he'll eventually become a great coach of a great team - but he's yet to prove this - but I will always judge him on things he could have controlled, but didn't, in his final years at St Kilda.

[plugger66]

A coach is as only as good as his last year. Are you serious? That would mean nearly every coach, even the best few ever, arent any good. As for your last statement well the coach moved on so I dont see the issue. Not many on here have said it was a bad move even some have and thats ok. As for statement about short comings well i doubt anyone has ever said RL didnt have short coming just like probably every coach in the AFL has or had.

I'm not measuring the success of a coach simply on the basis of where a team happens to finish year on year.
There are areas which are outside of a coaches control and other things which are not. I only judge on the latter, the things which the coach has control over - and this is independent of where the team happens to finish.
Defensive F50 tackles falls in this area.

It would be unrealistic to expect that RL would have us sitting any higher on the ladder than where we're at right now - so what makes him look great at the moment is what made him look great when we were in our prime - he's in charge of a very talented team.

He was but not as talented as 2004- 06. I actually dont think he could control much in 2011 as te players were mentally shot and whilst they thought they were giving 100% im unsure they were. Forward pressure is probably the first thing that goes then because its all about playing for yourself.

[sunsaint]

A coach is only as good as his last year.

I agree - because ultimately they "ALL" end up on the scrap heap -
its funny the more "semantic" types use the exact same argument against SW

[Bunk_Moreland]

A coach is only as good as his last year.
We can't always be at the top - but delivering zero or 2 or 3 defensive F50 tackles week after week is not good enough - it's inexcusable!
That's where a good coach makes a difference - or you know it's time for the coach to move on.

As I said before, it was time the coach moved on.

When he did I was not unhappy. In hindsight it would have been best for him to go after 2010 but that was not going to happen.

If he leaves Freo's list in the state ours was left in, I doubt many would take the risk with him again.