Jon Ralph on our rucks

[samuraisaint]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

We didn't win one game out of the last six matches when he was in. Not one. And we only got close once - and that was against Hawthorn, a team who have made 1 goal wins an absolute art form. He's okay, but I am far from sold on him.
I posted a video of a game from the 90s on this site on Saturday which shows the sort of influence ruckmen should have on a game - the ruckmen were Wayne Thornborrow and Lazar Vidovic. And you could also find any games featuring a young Peter Everitt which would display the same influence. I didn't see that in the last six matches of last year.
Marshall looks like more of a forward to me, the way he plays.

[rodgerfox]

I am so glad we have taken a risk on our young rucks. It is time. Hickey is 27 years old.

I think Marshall is special.

Longer lacks confidence but with Hickey gone it may be what he needs.

Lewie deserves a run as well.

Interesting those who are pessimistic about the Saints are also not happy about giving our younger rucks a go next year.

I am so glad we are going to run with the risk even if the pessimists piss their pants.

Totally agree with this.

I'd have far preferred Longer to be traded instead of Hickey - but either way I'm really bullish about Pearce and Marshall.

I think at this stage of our development, recruiting a B-grade ruckman is a waste of time. Unless there's a proven gun, what's the point of a stop gap? It's not as if we're in the 'window' or anything.

[Crossy66]

I am so glad we have taken a risk on our young rucks. It is time. Hickey is 27 years old.

I think Marshall is special.

Longer lacks confidence but with Hickey gone it may be what he needs.

Lewie deserves a run as well.

Interesting those who are pessimistic about the Saints are also not happy about giving our younger rucks a go next year.

I am so glad we are going to run with the risk even if the pessimists piss their pants.

Totally agree with this.

I'd have far preferred Longer to be traded instead of Hickey - but either way I'm really bullish about Pearce and Marshall.

I think at this stage of our development, recruiting a B-grade ruckman is a waste of time. Unless there's a proven gun, what's the point of a stop gap? It's not as if we're in the 'window' or anything.

Spot on. We need top end talent

[rodgerfox]

I am so glad we have taken a risk on our young rucks. It is time. Hickey is 27 years old.

I think Marshall is special.

Longer lacks confidence but with Hickey gone it may be what he needs.

Lewie deserves a run as well.

Interesting those who are pessimistic about the Saints are also not happy about giving our younger rucks a go next year.

I am so glad we are going to run with the risk even if the pessimists piss their pants.

Totally agree with this.

I'd have far preferred Longer to be traded instead of Hickey - but either way I'm really bullish about Pearce and Marshall.

I think at this stage of our development, recruiting a B-grade ruckman is a waste of time. Unless there's a proven gun, what's the point of a stop gap? It's not as if we're in the 'window' or anything.

Spot on. We need top end talent

Everyone does.

But it's easier said than done. So in the interim, I think we need to add better players than what we have in certain roles and in certain positions, whilst not stifling the development of others in other roles.

Adding an experienced midfielder in Hannebury for example, is a good get. Adds depth, improves the group overall, and doesn't hold anyone back.

However adding a B-grade ruckman, doesn't add heaps, but holds Pearce and Marshall back. Those two should play every week.

[Sanctorum]

The following comment in the article by Jon Ralph should really be challenged, and destroys his thesis:

"they are the only team in the competition who doesn’t have a ruckman who at his best can change a game."

There are only a few ruckman that have the capability to change a game, and you need only look at how successful the Eagles were without their game changing ruckman (Natanui) to prove the point.

Sure, neither Longer, Pierce or Marshall are there yet, but with expert coaching, and commitment to elite fitness training, will improve significantly in 2019. It was a smart decision by the club to only offer Longer and Pierce 1 year contracts because that should be a great incentive for both of them to challenge for regular selection, and have extensions offered mid season.

[saintspremiers]

I am so glad we have taken a risk on our young rucks. It is time. Hickey is 27 years old.

I think Marshall is special.

Longer lacks confidence but with Hickey gone it may be what he needs.

Lewie deserves a run as well.

Interesting those who are pessimistic about the Saints are also not happy about giving our younger rucks a go next year.

I am so glad we are going to run with the risk even if the pessimists piss their pants.

Totally agree with this.

I'd have far preferred Longer to be traded instead of Hickey - but either way I'm really bullish about Pearce and Marshall.

I think at this stage of our development, recruiting a B-grade ruckman is a waste of time. Unless there's a proven gun, what's the point of a stop gap? It's not as if we're in the 'window' or anything.

Everyone bar stoney would’ve preferred Longer trades rather than Hickey.

But Billy is a spud and wouldn’t have any trade value.

I’m annoyed we are sort of forced to keep him on due to our lack of rucks.

[saint6709]

The following comment in the article by Jon Ralph should really be challenged, and destroys his thesis:

"they are the only team in the competition who doesn’t have a ruckman who at his best can change a game."

There are only a few ruckman that have the capability to change a game, and you need only look at how successful the Eagles were without their game changing ruckman (Natanui) to prove the point.

Sure, neither Longer, Pierce or Marshall are there yet, but with expert coaching, and commitment to elite fitness training, will improve significantly in 2019. It was a smart decision by the club to only offer Longer and Pierce 1 year contracts because that should be a great incentive for both of them to challenge for regular selection, and have extensions offered mid season.

I think you make a good point

[takeaway]

I am so glad we have taken a risk on our young rucks. It is time. Hickey is 27 years old.

I think Marshall is special.

Longer lacks confidence but with Hickey gone it may be what he needs.

Lewie deserves a run as well.

Interesting those who are pessimistic about the Saints are also not happy about giving our younger rucks a go next year.

I am so glad we are going to run with the risk even if the pessimists piss their pants.

Totally agree with this.

I'd have far preferred Longer to be traded instead of Hickey - but either way I'm really bullish about Pearce and Marshall.

I think at this stage of our development, recruiting a B-grade ruckman is a waste of time. Unless there's a proven gun, what's the point of a stop gap? It's not as if we're in the 'window' or anything.

Everyone bar stoney would’ve preferred Longer trades rather than Hickey.

But Billy is a spud and wouldn’t have any trade value.

I’m annoyed we are sort of forced to keep him on due to our lack of rucks.

Think there are a few others besides Stoney that prefer Longer, myself included, and the club.

[rodgerfox]

Think there are a few others besides Stoney that prefer Longer, myself included, and the club.

I don't know why people use 'the club' as some sort of weight behind their argument.

You do realise 'the club' has under performed horrendously over the past 5 years yeah?


If 'the club' think something, then if anything it's probably cause for concern - not reassurance.

[takeaway]

Think there are a few others besides Stoney that prefer Longer, myself included, and the club.

I don't know why people use 'the club' as some sort of weight behind their argument.

You do realise 'the club' has under performed horrendously over the past 5 years yeah?


If 'the club' think something, then if anything it's probably cause for concern - not reassurance.

Not sure whether you are talking finances, team performance or whatever, but last 5 years the team was coming off a fairly low base after the Lyon years, were doing OK in 16/17, bad year last year. Financially in debt, but a major achievement in getting back to Moorabbin, which will reap benefits in coming years, and membership is even up after a bad year. Hardly horrendous imo.

"The club" have direct contact and coaches work with the players for a lot of the year, so as far as I am concerned the gap in knowledge re capability, etc of players between the club and a few on SS is so wide it does not matter. No club is anywhere near perfect, but reassurance yes, concern, no.

[chico2001]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

We didn't win one game out of the last six matches when he was in. Not one. And we only got close once - and that was against Hawthorn, a team who have made 1 goal wins an absolute art form. He's okay, but I am far from sold on him.
I posted a video of a game from the 90s on this site on Saturday which shows the sort of influence ruckmen should have on a game - the ruckmen were Wayne Thornborrow and Lazar Vidovic. And you could also find any games featuring a young Peter Everitt which would display the same influence. I didn't see that in the last six matches of last year.
Marshall looks like more of a forward to me, the way he plays.

Marshall is a lock in the team as a forward mostly and back up ruckman if needed. History shows my posts on Marshall have said this. He will not be first ruck. I don't support the theories regarding " didn't win a game with him in the side' otherwise you can say we only won 4 with Gresham playing, it can be twisted to suit any argument.

[sunsaint]

"The club" have direct contact and coaches work with the players for a lot of the year, so as far as I am concerned the gap in knowledge re capability, etc of players between the club and a few on SS is so wide it does not matter. No club is anywhere near perfect, but reassurance yes, concern, no.

sorry takeaway but you must have missed what the ole Rodge was saying
if your above sentence was even remotely true - you know coaches/club know best - then why the personnel change - I mean why bother surely last years lot were "the best".
And how many times after a game were we "reassured" that the level of performance was not acceptable.... (gap between coaches and players perhaps...?)
And how many times did we SS hacks scratch our heads at the repeated team selection of non-performers Only to see said players dumped from the club at year end???

Support staff are just people - and last time I checked membership to mensa was not required
and if I want to be trite then you know - you can fool some of the people some of the time & you can be right some of the time but never right all the time - so I have been told

[chico2001]

From the Ralph article..

In Longer’s five games this year only his hitout-to advantage statistics were considered by Champion Data to be average — 7.4 per game.
His disposal rate (6.4), contested possessions (2.8), clearance rate (.2) and score involvements were rated poor, his intercept mark rate (0.4) rated below average.
In those five games he took a total of five marks, Grundy besting his 32 possessions for the year in just one Round 4 game against Adelaide (33 possessions).

The Saints definitely have issues with the quality of their contracted ruckmen for 2019. Hopefully all these off field additions can transform our ruckmen into
AFL quality players.

Again, all stats from a few games playing injured, let's see how it all pans out next year?????

You are like a few others on here, you only like the stats when they suit your argument.....F**cking weak sook....no offence intended. Make sure you dont get any of that coal on your face either..

<warning for abuse>

[chico2001]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

Well then, compare him to Longer in 2017, when Billy was fit!!!!!

Hitouts, hitouts and hitouts and Longer averages 8 disposals a game over his career, 1 mark per game..etc etc.....Preuss was an option that is what I am saying. If the saints did not want him as you state then the Dees have made a big mistake. If you look at it sensibly which you cant, Preuss never got a game in 2018 because Goldstein was in outstanding form all year, played 22 games etc ...Go and have a look at his stats if that is your bent, then ask yourself if any St Kilda ruckman would have got a senior game at North in 2018 even if fit!!!!!

Seems the narrative has changed. You said you wanted to recruit Preuss, i just asked why you wanted him when statistically he is worse or no better than the three rucks we have on our list. You raised Longer, i didnt. You tell me he statistically is Longers equal. The same bloke you reckon is a dud.
Dees havent made a mistake, they wanted to recruit a back up ruckman to play in the VFL as insurance if Gawn goes down - smart move, and gives you some idea of how Preuss rates himself. I have no problem with Goldstein, Been very good for a long time, but it doesnt change the fact that Preuss hasnt played an AFL game for a long time. Glad you are not doing our recruiting Chico!

First rule is...get your facts right. Dont twist the original post around and tell a blatant lie. Thats weak. I seen him as an option. Read my post properly. Where did I say I wanted to recruit him? So the narrative hasnt changed at all. You have tried to change it..but..no cigar. Preuss hasnt played an AFL game in 2018 and I gave a good reason, LIke I said, show me a ruckman from St KIlda who would have got a game before Goldstein at North in 2018, You didnt answer it then and you wont answer it in your next post either. So therefore a side that has a star ruckman that finished 4th recruits a back up ruckman, you reckon it is a smart move in your wisdom. A side that finished 16th with no ruck to speak of which is a known fact and they dont want to look at Preuss. Check out the saints recruiting in the last few years, let me know how they went. The 2nd rule for you is ..still dont lie

Geez chico, what is it your trying to say?
So you see pruess as an option but you do or dont want to recruit him y or n?

Melbourne recruit him to play vfl as insurance if gawn goes down- are you saying that's good or bad?.

Why keep raising goldstein? I just said that pruess is not an afl ruckman, hasnt played in over a year. Not debating whether goldstein is a good ruckman or not.
You shouldn't use the term" known fact" when referring to opinions.
Btw, because someone expresses a different point to yours doesn't make it a lie
Lastly , stkildas recruiting over the last few years has been pretty good imo (Carlisle, Gresham, Steele, Long, Battle, coffield, Clark, Austin, Rice. If you disagree what would you have done differently?
I just don't get your love for pruess that was my original point. Statistically worse or no better than the 3 rucks we have on our list, none of which you rate.
I could be wrong, but it seems that if they wear a saint's jumper they are duds, but if they play for someone else they're guns and our recruiting staff are failures for not recruiting them.
I would rather invest games into the likes of pierce or marshall rather than recruit a player that's statistically worse. Would you agree or disagree?

It started out as a simple question, same as someone asked if Karl Amon would be suitable for the club, or any other player up for grabs. But you couldnt be satisfied with that. I never said that I wanted to recruit him, that is why you are a liar. But trying to use the excuse of "a different viewpoint" is weak to cover up that lie. "Love for Pruess", wtf are you talking about?


When did I say that I dont rate Pierce or Marshall, once again, you have been caught out making this stuff up as you go. How can you rate pierce? He has hardly played a game. same for Marshall.

Yes, you are wrong, making stuff up about duds in saints jumpers. Rubbish filler for a forum statement. Take out your lies and silly statements and there is not much left.

[skeptic]

I only hope that the club is seriously committed to the idea of playing the best and is done with playing favourites...

That has been the major contributing factor to my loss of faith in Richo.

From where I sit, an unbiased / objective view of the situation is that neither Longer or Pierce are a clear standout at the moment nor is one a clear lock ahead of the other.

If we took a poll, my bet is that preferences would be a 50/50 to 60/40 split.

The worst thing that could happen is that Longer is locked into the number one spot and stays there unconditionally whilst producing similar to what he has over the 18 months. It still irks me +++ that Pierce only played last season because of injury.

The spot needs to be earnt and the player that has it needs to bust a gut to keep it

[samuraisaint]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

We didn't win one game out of the last six matches when he was in. Not one. And we only got close once - and that was against Hawthorn, a team who have made 1 goal wins an absolute art form. He's okay, but I am far from sold on him.
I posted a video of a game from the 90s on this site on Saturday which shows the sort of influence ruckmen should have on a game - the ruckmen were Wayne Thornborrow and Lazar Vidovic. And you could also find any games featuring a young Peter Everitt which would display the same influence. I didn't see that in the last six matches of last year.
Marshall looks like more of a forward to me, the way he plays.

Marshall is a lock in the team as a forward mostly and back up ruckman if needed. History shows my posts on Marshall have said this. He will not be first ruck. I don't support the theories regarding " didn't win a game with him in the side' otherwise you can say we only won 4 with Gresham playing, it can be twisted to suit any argument.

Well played. I can't argue with that logic, except to say that I have already seen Gresham win two games for us, and he arguably changed the game in our favour against GWS too.
However, next year there is no space for any more excuses from anybody at the Saints.

[chico2001]

Wonder why Preuss did not want to come to the saints. He was no star but was aggressive, good coordination, reasonable stats and had upside.

Did we want him? That might be your answer.
statistically inferior to rowan marshall.
Only played 8 games and none this year
Only ever Played in 1 win
Averages 8 disposals
Would rather play marshall thanks

Overated by many on here, not suprising!!!!!

I was comparing him to Bill Longer not Rowan Marshall….Marshall is a lock..

Well then, compare him to Longer in 2017, when Billy was fit!!!!!

Hitouts, hitouts and hitouts and Longer averages 8 disposals a game over his career, 1 mark per game..etc etc.....Preuss was an option that is what I am saying. If the saints did not want him as you state then the Dees have made a big mistake. If you look at it sensibly which you cant, Preuss never got a game in 2018 because Goldstein was in outstanding form all year, played 22 games etc ...Go and have a look at his stats if that is your bent, then ask yourself if any St Kilda ruckman would have got a senior game at North in 2018 even if fit!!!!!

Whatever, Billy has a contract at St.Kilda, Preuss has not, neither has Hickey, I'll stick with those thoughts of the 'Real Experts' and those close to the coal face, not those on a Fan Forum or in newspaper's!!!!! No offence intended, however, I am closer to the 'coal face' than you or others I believe!!!!!

So I'm content with the decision and as I stated previously it was always going to go that way!!!!!

Hate saying I told you so, but guess what, I did!!!!!

You really need to stop Trolling on here and head back to the club you support, no offence intended!!!!!

I'm f****** sick of this forum becoming an open opportunity to 'bag the club' at every decision that is made, some of you 'so called' supporters really need to put up, get on or f*** off really!!!!!

No offence intended, but that's how I see it!!!!!

It's OK to have an opinion, sure, however it's not OK to be a bitter supporter, cause there's no such thing really!!!!!

No problems with your first 3 statements except that you are now officially an ITK because you said so but I think you are full of Sh*t, no offence intended. The rest is just rubbish and thread filler. You really need to stop accusing people of trolling and at the same time you have threatened on many occasion to try and "sort" posters out etc.....Do you really think you are the "heavy" in this forum? You had no problem bagging Hickey non stop and for quite a period, but anyway, who cares what you say...it is just crap and mainly about defending a non performing B grade ruckman and nothing else.

[takeaway]

"The club" have direct contact and coaches work with the players for a lot of the year, so as far as I am concerned the gap in knowledge re capability, etc of players between the club and a few on SS is so wide it does not matter. No club is anywhere near perfect, but reassurance yes, concern, no.

sorry takeaway but you must have missed what the ole Rodge was saying
if your above sentence was even remotely true - you know coaches/club know best - then why the personnel change - I mean why bother surely last years lot were "the best".
And how many times after a game were we "reassured" that the level of performance was not acceptable.... (gap between coaches and players perhaps...?)
And how many times did we SS hacks scratch our heads at the repeated team selection of non-performers Only to see said players dumped from the club at year end???

Support staff are just people - and last time I checked membership to mensa was not required
and if I want to be trite then you know - you can fool some of the people some of the time & you can be right some of the time but never right all the time - so I have been told

No idea what you are getting at. The coaches, whether they have gone or are still there, were in a far better position than any on SS to know players capabilities, having worked closely with them for a number of years. The coaches that have left were not idiots, well qualified, but probably time for a change. The post was about Longer, who I believe "the club" rated higher than Hickey. Longer was injured for virtually all the year, and Hickey had a good run at it, but was advised to look elsewhere. I believe Lade had input re rucks and their futures as well.

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

[rodgerfox]

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

I absolutely think.that. Absolutely.

That's like saying politicians always get it right, and we should all just sit back and shut up, and let them do their job.

I could think of dozens of instances where coaches in many sports have been wrong, whilst fans have called it early.

[skeptic]

I am not Alan Richardson.

I was appalled by the decision to persevere with Weller the way we did on 2017 despite the fact that his performances were largely terrible and apparently he played through an ankle injury.

Given that he was cut 12 months later and seemingly unwanted during the trade (at least in exchange for anything of value), I would dare say that the level of faith placed in Mav was at least somewhat misplaced...
And many many ppl here said so at the time and have maintained their skepticism over 2018.

Obviously the club saw/had their reasons for why they persevered him the way they did... not knowing those reasons doesn’t make them correct.

Here’s the thing with football and why at the end of the day this whole ‘what would fans know’ argument is incredibly silly... the ultimate measure is performance and come game day it’s plain for everyone to see and it’s not that hard.

Yes I might not know what the coaches instructions were or what a specific role or particular stat was/is but at the end of the day it’s not that hard to watch a game and determine if someone played well or not or whether someone is a good player period.

It’s what players do that actually matters and In this era of footage and statistics it gets confused a lot because those things are used to justify the performance of players that don’t do enough.

I might not have “superior knowledge” to the coaching team but I can see underwhelming performances rewarded due to an irrational line of thinking whether it be blind spot or favouritism

[sunsaint]

cmon Rodge -

must
conform

else

[takeaway]

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

I absolutely think.that. Absolutely.

That's like saying politicians always get it right, and we should all just sit back and shut up, and let them do their job.

I could think of dozens of instances where coaches in many sports have been wrong, whilst fans have called it early.

Of course, I said in my earlier post that no club is anywhere near perfect, and of course coaches make plenty of errors in all areas.

But as a general rule, I would take the opinion of the collective coaches/staff at a club, for the reasons listed earlier, over people who watch and guess from afar.

[rodgerfox]

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

I absolutely think.that. Absolutely.

That's like saying politicians always get it right, and we should all just sit back and shut up, and let them do their job.

I could think of dozens of instances where coaches in many sports have been wrong, whilst fans have called it early.

Of course, I said in my earlier post that no club is anywhere near perfect, and of course coaches make plenty of errors in all areas.

But as a general rule, I would take the opinion of the collective coaches/staff at a club, for the reasons listed earlier, over people who watch and guess from afar.

As a general rules, yes. But when you've s*** the bed as a club over a 5 year period, general rules do not apply.

[sunsaint]

. I believe Lade had input re rucks and their futures as well.

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

its funny isnt it ...
so now we are lauding Lade for the ruck decision
he HAD to leave Adelaide for family reasons
Hinkley knows his good mate Richo will do him a solid
we take him on - no real oh look he was in such high demand yet he chose the saints over all others
was there at the club maybe - just _maybe a week during trade period...

ok

[takeaway]

. I believe Lade had input re rucks and their futures as well.

If you think even one poster on SS has superior knowledge re player's capabilities than the collective "club", well WOW.

its funny isnt it ...
so now we are lauding Lade for the ruck decision
he HAD to leave Adelaide for family reasons
Hinkley knows his good mate Richo will do him a solid
we take him on - no real oh look he was in such high demand yet he chose the saints over all others
was there at the club maybe - just _maybe a week during trade period...

ok

Lauding Lade? Where did I say that? Reasons for his departure from Adelaide and the fact that St Kilda appointed him? What has that got to do with the post?

All I said was I believe Lade was involved in discussions re the ruck stocks, certainly didn't make any decisions re rucks. Don't you think he may have had discussions on various issues with the club well before he arrived? Phew.