Top ten in the Brownlow count

[Moods]

Are we seriously using the Brownlow as a measure to whether a player is any good or not?
This is an award that is voted upon by the UMPIRES. You know, the blokes who the OP claims are basically cheating against us every week and puts the free kick count up in the forum each week to prove it.
The umpires have enough to worry about and then they have to determine who is the best players on the ground? Basically they give votes to whoever got the most of the ball. It's why it's called a midfielders award. Ben Brown kicks 6 goals against us in Rd 2 and doesn't score a vote! I'm constantly amazed that ppl put so much credence in the award. No other sport in the world outside Australia do ppl care what the umpires think and hold their opinion in such high esteem. The MVP in the NBA is voted on by about 60 journos.

If the coaches votes weren't so conflicted we'd hold that as the most prestigious award. They are watching the game through the eyes of who is most damaging and who is influencing the game the most. They have to be because they are trying to release that player or stop them depending on whose team the player is from. Personally I think that should be the Brownlow. It should be kept secret all year, and on Brownlow night the votes are revealed as well as who gave them to keep the coaches accountable.

As for Stuv - well he's yet to make an AA team. He's won 4 x B&F's which is a great effort. All awards won in a terrible era for the club though. He is NOT A grade. Ask anyone outside our club/bubble. He is exactly the reason why we aren't any good at the moment. He's our best player and still he's not A grade. Someone had to win the award but none of them are A grade unfortunately. His disposal is average at best. A great mid has great disposal.

[saynta]

Are we seriously using the Brownlow as a measure to whether a player is any good or not?
This is an award that is voted upon by the UMPIRES. You know, the blokes who the OP claims are basically cheating against us every week and puts the free kick count up in the forum each week to prove it.
The umpires have enough to worry about and then they have to determine who is the best players on the ground? Basically they give votes to whoever got the most of the ball. It's why it's called a midfielders award. Ben Brown kicks 6 goals against us in Rd 2 and doesn't score a vote! I'm constantly amazed that ppl put so much credence in the award. No other sport in the world outside Australia do ppl care what the umpires think and hold their opinion in such high esteem. The MVP in the NBA is voted on by about 60 journos.

If the coaches votes weren't so conflicted we'd hold that as the most prestigious award. They are watching the game through the eyes of who is most damaging and who is influencing the game the most. They have to be because they are trying to release that player or stop them depending on whose team the player is from. Personally I think that should be the Brownlow. It should be kept secret all year, and on Brownlow night the votes are revealed as well as who gave them to keep the coaches accountable.

As for Stuv - well he's yet to make an AA team. He's won 4 x B&F's which is a great effort. All awards won in a terrible era for the club though. He is NOT A grade. Ask anyone outside our club/bubble. He is exactly the reason why we aren't any good at the moment. He's our best player and still he's not A grade. Someone had to win the award but none of them are A grade unfortunately. His disposal is average at best. A great mid has great disposal.

Ho-um.

[older saint]

Best player in a crap team
well done and taking nothing away from it but doesn't justify claims as an A grader.
That said i think there are many people who the media call A graders who i don't feel are quite there. If A grader is thrown around then where would guys like Harvey, Judd, Voss , Hird, Lockett, Ablett *2 etc have rated

[saynta]

Yep, Jack is truly ordinary.

That is why Geelong and the Swans are chasing him.

[Moods]

Yep, Jack is truly ordinary.

That is why Geelong and the Swans are chasing him.

Who said he was ordinary??
He’s not. He’s a very good footballer. A grade is top shelf. Where do you reckon he’d rate in most journalists top 50? I reckon he’d be between 40-60th best in league. A grade for me is top 20-25.

[supersaints2]

Yep, Jack is truly ordinary.

That is why Geelong and the Swans are chasing him.

Who said he was ordinary??
He’s not. He’s a very good footballer. A grade is top shelf. Where do you reckon he’d rate in most journalists top 50? I reckon he’d be between 40-60th best in league. A grade for me is top 20-25.

That's some top shelf stuff!

I guess your entitled to say what A grade is for you but.....
Your maths say their are only 1.39 A graders at best in the whole league? (25 players between 18 teams) that's ridiculously hard marking.

I would hazard a guess that there are probably a lot more A graders than 20- 25 players ?

Stuv is up against 6 positions for AA, and yes their are six midfielders better than Stuv so he's unlikely to make it in the most competitive position in the league... but he is an A grade player

Most " journolists" would believe there are far more than 20 to 25 A grade players in the league , I'd guess on position alone there would be at least 5 A grade players per player position. So that works out at 90 A grade players league wide. And that's being conservative I suggest the top 100 players would have to be A grade

[Moods]

Yep, Jack is truly ordinary.

That is why Geelong and the Swans are chasing him.

Who said he was ordinary??
He’s not. He’s a very good footballer. A grade is top shelf. Where do you reckon he’d rate in most journalists top 50? I reckon he’d be between 40-60th best in league. A grade for me is top 20-25.

That's some top shelf stuff!

I guess your entitled to say what A grade is for you but.....
Your maths say their are only 1.39 A graders at best in the whole league? (25 players between 18 teams) that's ridiculously hard marking.

I would hazard a guess that there are probably a lot more A graders than 20- 25 players ?

Stuv is up against 6 positions for AA, and yes their are six midfielders better than Stuv so he's unlikely to make it in the most competitive position in the league... but he is an A grade player

Most " journolists" would believe there are far more than 20 to 25 A grade players in the league , I'd guess on position alone there would be at least 5 A grade players per player position. So that works out at 90 A grade players league wide. And that's being conservative I suggest the top 100 players would have to be A grade

100!!!

Ok let's narrow it down. Where would Jack feature in the best MIDS in the league

I have listed off the top of my head (so may have missed some) Trying to be fair I have put a ? against players that may be up for debate, but in my mind I believe that Jack isn't as effective as. The ones without a ? are clearly better than Jack.

Bulldogs - Bont, Macrae?
WC - Shuey, GAFF
Hawks - MItchell
Pies - Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Treloar?
Tiges - Cotchin, Martin
Cats - Danger, Selwood
GWS - Kelly, Shiel, Coniglio? Ward?
Bombers - Merrett
Kangas - Higgins
Crows - Sloan? M. Crouch
Brisbane -
GC -
Blues - Cripps
Swans - Kennedy, Parker, Heeney?
Dees - Oliver, Viney?
Port - Wines
Freo - Fyffe, Neale

So, I argue that Jack would be lucky to be in the best 30 mids in the comp. I say he's clearly not in the best 20 mids in the comp. Surely best 20 in the one position or area on the ground is required before being considered A grade. In my view

I base my opinion on the fact that Jack simply turns the ball over too often, invariably under limited pressure. He has fantastic line breaking ability which many on this list don't have to the same extent. That is really the only area that he has many covered in. Almost all are as hard if not harder than him and use the ball far better. Granted most play in better sides so less pressure on them week to week. In my view Jack would be the 3rd or 4th best mid in a top team - a bit like Joey was in our best teams. In a bottom team he is the best or 2nd best mid. Does that make him A grade? Not for mine.

[supersaints2]

Moods going on your original statement and doing the maths

You said "There are only 20 - 25 A grade players in the league .. so would you care to name the 1.3 "A" grade center players ( ok I'll give you 2 to name) ... that means the rest are B grade on your reckoning

For me the very best players would be considered "Elite" the best of the best by position played currently we can use the AA side as an example there are 18 players (and 4 on the bench) that number (22) sits right in the middle of your maximum "A" grade players ....
Feel free to chose your own AA team .. but you would have to at least agree that the very best of best must be at least A grade to be elite??

There are over 700 players excluding Rookies ... I would suggest that the number A graders ( including elite would be in the top 10% of players that's 70 in the blink of an eye)

All players have limitations like Stuv , e.g. Dangerfield doesn't chase hard enough defensively... it's only subjective to say how good he would be in a s*** side like we are at present he may be no better than Stuv without Sekwoid etc around himetc tell me any player you like and I'll point out some weakness

I have yet to see a footballer is the best at everything ....

[Moods]

Moods going on your original statement and doing the maths

You said "There are only 20 - 25 A grade players in the league .. so would you care to name the 1.3 "A" grade center players ( ok I'll give you 2 to name) ... that means the rest are B grade on your reckoning

For me the very best players would be considered "Elite" the best of the best by position played currently we can use the AA side as an example there are 18 players (and 4 on the bench) that number (22) sits right in the middle of your maximum "A" grade players ....
Feel free to chose your own AA team .. but you would have to at least agree that the very best of best must be at least A grade to be elite??

There are over 700 players excluding Rookies ... I would suggest that the number A graders ( including elite would be in the top 10% of players that's 70 in the blink of an eye)

All players have limitations like Stuv , e.g. Dangerfield doesn't chase hard enough defensively... it's only subjective to say how good he would be in a s*** side like we are at present he may be no better than Stuv without Sekwoid etc around himetc tell me any player you like and I'll point out some weakness

I have yet to see a footballer is the best at everything ....

Yep agree that they all have limitations. Danger has played in average Crows teams and been excellent though. I wouldn't have used him as an example

I have tried to be fair and brought my expectations down to where you see an A grader. Say there are 5-6 mids in every team. That would make about 90-100 mids in the AFL (I'm only including the best 22 from each club, not the entire squads)

I say that Stuv rates somewhere between 25-30th best out of those players. That's puts him just outside the 20th percentile. At school 80% or 85% was an A. For mine Stuv sits just outside the A ranking in the high 70's possibly low 80's.

You say point out a player and you'll point out his weaknesses. Yeah but Stuv already starts behind the 8 ball due to his physical limitations that he cannot help - ie, most of the elite mids are 185cm plus. Therefore many of them are great overhead. Stuv can't compete in that area which is fair enough but it automatically rules him out. Dusty, Fyffe, Danger, Cripps, Bont are all superb overhead.

Anyway - I do like Jack, but he typifies for me why we are where we are. He would have been awesome in our team in the late 2000's with Lenny, Dal, Joey and BJ. His breakaway speed would have been fantastic and he wouldn't have been tagged - because he would have been our 3rd or 4th best mid.