Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18579
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1905 times
- Been thanked: 841 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Any coincidence that our last quarter resurgence coincided with Carlisle’s move forward?
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 5:54pm
- Has thanked: 119 times
- Been thanked: 381 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
NO. If we want to go backwards in our development, play Carlisle permanently forward. Pinch hit as a forward on occasions only.
Much better on the backline, not tough or agile enough with his crook knees for a permanent forward.
Much better on the backline, not tough or agile enough with his crook knees for a permanent forward.
- SaintPav
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18835
- Joined: Wed 16 Jun 2010 9:24pm
- Location: Alma Road
- Has thanked: 1568 times
- Been thanked: 1959 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
+ 1takeaway wrote:NO. If we want to go backwards in our development, play Carlisle permanently forward. Pinch hit as a forward on occasions only.
Much better on the backline, not tough or agile enough with his crook knees for a permanent forward.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
- bigred
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11463
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 7:39am
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 609 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Have a look at how many marks he took deep in defence ffs.
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
- ausfatcat
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 6524
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 4:36pm
- Has thanked: 19 times
- Been thanked: 95 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
bigcarl wrote:Any coincidence that our last quarter resurgence coincided with Carlisle’s move forward?
No because he only spent the last 3 or 4 mins in the forward line, but took like 4 intercept marks in the backline before that.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 25303
- Joined: Tue 01 Feb 2005 4:25pm
- Location: Trump Tower
- Has thanked: 142 times
- Been thanked: 284 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Jake is one of the best tall defenders in the league.
If it ain’t broke why ffs it?! (As saynta/stinger would say)
If it ain’t broke why ffs it?! (As saynta/stinger would say)
i am Melbourne Skies - sometimes Blue Skies, Grey Skies, even Partly Cloudy Skies.
- The Fireman
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 13241
- Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:54pm
- Has thanked: 644 times
- Been thanked: 1907 times
- howlinwolf
- Club Player
- Posts: 1359
- Joined: Tue 27 May 2008 8:51pm
- Location: Sittin' On Top Of the World
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 29 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
I'd be leaving him in the backline myself.
Sunday's example is understandable. Late in the game with the points there for the taking and a little lacking up forward. Yeah move him and roll the dice.
I can't remember the last defender we had that was such a reliable mark and reader of the ball.
We would have been on the end of some horrendous beatings without him there.All the while he'd be getting cold up in the forward line.
Let's just leave him where he is and say that position is buttoned up. Work on the forward line.
Sunday's example is understandable. Late in the game with the points there for the taking and a little lacking up forward. Yeah move him and roll the dice.
I can't remember the last defender we had that was such a reliable mark and reader of the ball.
We would have been on the end of some horrendous beatings without him there.All the while he'd be getting cold up in the forward line.
Let's just leave him where he is and say that position is buttoned up. Work on the forward line.
Robert Harvey's last home game. 24 Aug 2008
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18579
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1905 times
- Been thanked: 841 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
saintspremiers wrote:Jake is one of the best tall defenders in the league.
If it ain’t broke why ffs it?! (As saynta/stinger would say)
Because it is broken.
We are the 18th in the league for turning inside 50s into scores.
We often even win the inside 50s and get rolled.
We have big problems in attack, despite a morale-boosting draw on Saturday, and structurallly we need a good centre half forward. It would leave a big hole in defence obviously. Bruce could go back there when he’s right.
- degruch
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8948
- Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
- Location: Croydonia
- Has thanked: 146 times
- Been thanked: 237 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
...and it was our midfield taking clean possession from the centre that led to that resurgence regardless. I'm not sure 3-4 minutes in one out the forward line is justifiable evidence we should destroy our defensive structure.ausfatcat wrote:bigcarl wrote:Any coincidence that our last quarter resurgence coincided with Carlisle’s move forward?
No because he only spent the last 3 or 4 mins in the forward line, but took like 4 intercept marks in the backline before that.
- parkeysainter
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: Thu 20 Jul 2017 2:59am
- Location: Brighton Beach Mansion
- Has thanked: 84 times
- Been thanked: 177 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Carlisle only went down back in the last quarter because he was totally spent and could hardly move. Richo and Carlisle confirmed this.
Try to be a rainbow in someone's cloud
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes and the St Kilda FC
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes and the St Kilda FC
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 2:26pm
- Has thanked: 3522 times
- Been thanked: 2464 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Couple of points to consider for those of you who think Carlisle should play forward:
1. He has stated on many occasions that he prefers to play as a backman
2. There is more pressure on him as forward to hold his marks because he'll usually have an opponent on his hammer
These are facts, and whether you have opinions on where it's better for the team where Carlisle plays, you have to consider the facts. With point number 2 you can't compare his marking as an intercept defender and extropalate that he'll take lots of marks in the forward line. We all know there's more pressure as a forward. I reckon that's a large part of the reason for pont number 1. When your team isn't on top of the ladder, where is it easier to get a few kicks? I reckon he also knows that his team will be relying on him to not only take the grabs and beat his defender, but also there's a lot more pressure kicking it through the big sticks, rather than just field kicking. Not calling him soft - just stating that he is honest in communicating his preference to play as a defender.
Compare Jake's dropped mark before the final siren to the mark Paddy took a few minutes before that. Paddy got decent body contact a split second after he marked the footy late in the last quarter but he didn't drop the mark. Carlisle did not clutch the footy on the first grab.
The other thing that I reckon people haven't considered is that when he intercepts in defence he usually marks the footy unnopposed. Not always, but clearly the majority of the time he is not contesting when he marks in defence, because he's given the licence from the coaches to read the play and try and intercept at every opportunity. That's why Brown and Gilbo were manning their forwards.
1. He has stated on many occasions that he prefers to play as a backman
2. There is more pressure on him as forward to hold his marks because he'll usually have an opponent on his hammer
These are facts, and whether you have opinions on where it's better for the team where Carlisle plays, you have to consider the facts. With point number 2 you can't compare his marking as an intercept defender and extropalate that he'll take lots of marks in the forward line. We all know there's more pressure as a forward. I reckon that's a large part of the reason for pont number 1. When your team isn't on top of the ladder, where is it easier to get a few kicks? I reckon he also knows that his team will be relying on him to not only take the grabs and beat his defender, but also there's a lot more pressure kicking it through the big sticks, rather than just field kicking. Not calling him soft - just stating that he is honest in communicating his preference to play as a defender.
Compare Jake's dropped mark before the final siren to the mark Paddy took a few minutes before that. Paddy got decent body contact a split second after he marked the footy late in the last quarter but he didn't drop the mark. Carlisle did not clutch the footy on the first grab.
The other thing that I reckon people haven't considered is that when he intercepts in defence he usually marks the footy unnopposed. Not always, but clearly the majority of the time he is not contesting when he marks in defence, because he's given the licence from the coaches to read the play and try and intercept at every opportunity. That's why Brown and Gilbo were manning their forwards.
- evertonfc
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7261
- Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 9:11pm
- Location: 'Quietly Confident' County
- Has thanked: 115 times
- Been thanked: 267 times
- Contact:
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
FFS - he's the best defender we have, play him there.
This reminds me of the ridiculous concept of Gilbert playing forward, based on ONE goal in the 2010 GF.
Jake is struggling a bit with the mental side right now, because his teammates aren't pulling their weight. But he'll recover soon, don't worry about that.
This reminds me of the ridiculous concept of Gilbert playing forward, based on ONE goal in the 2010 GF.
Jake is struggling a bit with the mental side right now, because his teammates aren't pulling their weight. But he'll recover soon, don't worry about that.
Clueless and mediocre petty tyrant.
![Image](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/684651e21d.jpg)
![Image](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/684651e21d.jpg)
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11551
- Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 2:26pm
- Has thanked: 3522 times
- Been thanked: 2464 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
We don't just have problems in attack. The delivery has been horrendous. We need to improve our kicking skills. We currently have a good structure and it needs time for the mids to get used to Paddy as one of the main go to tall forwards along with Bruce and Membrey. When they are all fit I reckon this will be an awesome forward line supported by Gresh, JB and Longy. YES. Get used to it people.bigcarl wrote:saintspremiers wrote:Jake is one of the best tall defenders in the league.
If it ain’t broke why ffs it?! (As saynta/stinger would say)
Because it is broken.
We are the 18th in the league for turning inside 50s into scores.
We often even win the inside 50s and get rolled.
We have big problems in attack, despite a morale-boosting draw on Saturday, and structurallly we need a good centre half forward. It would leave a big hole in defence obviously. Bruce could go back there when he’s right.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18579
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1905 times
- Been thanked: 841 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
McCartin showed great signs on the weekend, but I’m not sure he’s good enough yet to be the sole genuine key position forward. Some will disagree, but I reckon you need more than one anyway.
Membrey, besides being out of form and possibly back a little prematurely, is a very good mark for his size, but isn’t a real key position player. He lacks the crash physicality a good key forward provides.
Bruce ... well he’s six weeks away. Good bash and crash type, but doesn’t have the best hands.
If not Carlisle, what about Battle? I’ve not seen him play much. Is he big enough to play a key position?
Membrey, besides being out of form and possibly back a little prematurely, is a very good mark for his size, but isn’t a real key position player. He lacks the crash physicality a good key forward provides.
Bruce ... well he’s six weeks away. Good bash and crash type, but doesn’t have the best hands.
If not Carlisle, what about Battle? I’ve not seen him play much. Is he big enough to play a key position?
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1941
- Joined: Sat 24 Apr 2004 10:24pm
- Location: Perth WA
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Agree totally. The issue with forwards not dominating is clearly a structural problem with forwards being used too much in defensive support. Paddy is not Roo in terms of aerobic capacity. He should not be located down back at times and be expected to present with grand leads forward. That's a player misuse problem.DJ Higgins wrote:Completely disagree. Jake isn't the answer to the forward line and by moving him forward you will weaken the defence more than you will strengthen the forwards. Problem is Paddy & Bruce. They are crap at present. Either they get better really quickly or we change the was we play and go for all out speed int eh forwards.
Plus if we kick better we wouldn't even be discussing this.
The form was better this week but the conversion is still crap and this time getting shots from Inside 50's is about support from small forwards from contests. Yes we did well to apply pressure but I still see a need for our small forwards to be around the aerial contests more not providing the marking option. Even is tall forwards are swamped having the fleet footed smalls forwards nearby can be rewarded by umpires often much closer and central to goal that seen this week.
We need that discipline back. I used to love Schneider and Milnes ability to create havoc in these circumstances. Our current crop are presenting as an alternative marking player too much and need to be creating issues for opposition defences in the forward line, not from a desperate kick from the midfield under pressure to an empty forward line.
Still more work to do but having someone to target up forward is essential to make the midfield more accountable to straigthen up. Scores will develop from this.
Midfield clearances and clear winners are needed to make an effective forward line.
You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
You need to protect the ball handler to increase posession efficiency
- meher baba
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7196
- Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
- Location: Tasmania
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 502 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Moving Jake forward - other than as an occasional shock tactic - is a daft idea. Like Riewoldt, he is a strong marking player but, unlike Riewoldt, he lacks the engine to run all over the field for four quarters.
I can understand peoples' frustration with the dropped marks and wild shooting for goal that we have seen from our full-time forwards this season. But these guys are capable of taking strong marks and hitting the target. It's all about confidence:
when this increases, the hands and the feet start performing much better, as Paddy showed in the second half on Saturday.
As I posted last week, Paddy plus Membrey plus a fleet of small players running forward, plus the ruckman and Acres periodically, is enough in modern football. I hope we don't see Marshall come back in this week as an extra tall. He's a promising player, but our structure looked better without him.
I can understand peoples' frustration with the dropped marks and wild shooting for goal that we have seen from our full-time forwards this season. But these guys are capable of taking strong marks and hitting the target. It's all about confidence:
when this increases, the hands and the feet start performing much better, as Paddy showed in the second half on Saturday.
As I posted last week, Paddy plus Membrey plus a fleet of small players running forward, plus the ruckman and Acres periodically, is enough in modern football. I hope we don't see Marshall come back in this week as an extra tall. He's a promising player, but our structure looked better without him.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
- Jonathan Swift
- SydneySainter
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2416
- Joined: Sat 26 May 2007 6:59pm
- Has thanked: 54 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
Agreed.meher baba wrote:Moving Jake forward - other than as an occasional shock tactic - is a daft idea. Like Riewoldt, he is a strong marking player but, unlike Riewoldt, he lacks the engine to run all over the field for four quarters.
I can understand peoples' frustration with the dropped marks and wild shooting for goal that we have seen from our full-time forwards this season. But these guys are capable of taking strong marks and hitting the target. It's all about confidence:
when this increases, the hands and the feet start performing much better, as Paddy showed in the second half on Saturday.
As I posted last week, Paddy plus Membrey plus a fleet of small players running forward, plus the ruckman and Acres periodically, is enough in modern football. I hope we don't see Marshall come back in this week as an extra tall. He's a promising player, but our structure looked better without him.
Their is more than enough talent in Paddy, Membrey, Gresh, Billings and an occasional cameo from Hickey and Acres to make a functional forward line. Confidence, structure and some consistent deliver from our mids would go a long way into making that a hard forward line to match up on.
Carlisle is by far at his best when played in defence. In frightens me to think of a backline without him. The odd cameo from Carlisle in the forward can have its advantages, but it should be no more than that, a cameo. There have been prolonged periods of Carlisle in the forward and it has so far failed to make any scoring impact.
Bad management is bad management
- The Fireman
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 13241
- Joined: Mon 08 Mar 2004 11:54pm
- Has thanked: 644 times
- Been thanked: 1907 times
Re: Jake Carlisle Must Play Forward
the fact that so many on here have said no makes me think maybe he should be played forward