Jason Holmes

[Jacks Back]

I agree you need four rucks on your list but 3 plus a rookie seems like the best mix if you ask me.

You're right. Why have 4 ruckmen on the senior list? 3 is plenty with 1 as a rookie and if one happens to get injured then you can elevate the rookie. Simples.

[Enrico_Misso]

It is all about versatility these days.
There is no room for a pure tap ruckman these days.
You need one key ruckman who can also impact the play in other ways especially marking, a backup (or two) ruckman in case he gets injured.
Then you need pinch-hitters in the team who can hold their own in the ruck like Josh Bruce.

Hawthorn had the ultimate pinch-hitter ruckman in Roughead.
His demise probably cost them a fourpeat.

Long John Holmes would have been a great acquisition 20 years ago but the game has moved on from one dimensional ruckman.
He would be exposed as a liability once the ball is in play.

[mad saint guy]

It is all about versatility these days.
There is no room for a pure tap ruckman these days.
You need one key ruckman who can also impact the play in other ways especially marking, a backup (or two) ruckman in case he gets injured.
Then you need pinch-hitters in the team who can hold their own in the ruck like Josh Bruce.

Our issue is that Bruce doesn't hold his own in the ruck. He gets smashed in the hitouts and doesn't have any great impact when the ball hits the ground. I think his forward play suffers for his stints in the ruck as well. Ideally your second ruck is someone who can have a genuine impact in busts like Tippet, Stanley, Blicavs, Lobb or Trengove.

Pierce in his debut was very handy because we didn't lose too much when Hickey needed a rest. But when Bruce rucks we lose forward structure, he runs himself ragged and we get flogged in the middle. Carlisle might be a better solution to the problem next year.

[spert]

Pretty obvious that Holmes is mobile enough and will have enough physical contesting presence around the ground to allow Bruce to spend most time in the forward line, as he was not quite getting his forward game working this season when being thrown into the ruck where he was largely ineffective, so we were down a player almost- we needed that extra couple of goals in some games. Holmes and Hickey share the ruck duties.

[Bernard Shakey]

He's a good tap ruckman already, but is clearly no Tom Hickey around the ground. No doubt he's been told to develop that part of his game and I'm glad he'll get the chance to.

I am just wondering that if we build a crack mid field and forward structure...would it not be useful to have a ruck man who gives that structure first use of the ball most of the time.....and as a result his contribution around the ground may not be critical/required and if it happens it will be the icing ....

Well he was preferred to Longer and Pierce for the last rounds in Hickey's absence, so it appears that this is how the club is thinking.

Just to keep him interested!

Maybe, but why keep him interested rather than, say, Longer?

Perhaps the club does think it is all about first use at the clearances and if Holmes can get a kick that will be a bonus.

We did okay n the games he played, from memory, so they may have a point

Longer and Pierce were already signed for another two years!

[Trixilver]

Don't have a problem with 4 rucks on the list to be honest. Not sure what the issue is - our depth is impressive and having four rucks just adds to the fact. I know Richo hasn't played multiple rucks very often, but when he has it has worked very well. Carlton this year (Hickey, Pierce), Draw with Cats round 21 last year which we were unlucky not to win (Hickey, Holmes), etc.

[saintsRrising]

Pretty obvious that Holmes is mobile enough and will have enough physical contesting presence around the ground to allow Bruce to spend most time in the forward line, as he was not quite getting his forward game working this season when being thrown into the ruck where he was largely ineffective, so we were down a player almost- we needed that extra couple of goals in some games. Holmes and Hickey share the ruck duties.

I see it the opposite way. We are down a man if he plays IMO at his present a output as he cannot read the play, and that is why he finds the ball so rarely.

Instead I would have Carlisle give Hickey a chop in the ruck. Carlisle has actually played in the ruck and does ok there. More than likely the opposition's No 1 ruck will be getting their chop out from a ruck/forward and so when they do so, Carlisle just follows them into the ruck.

In this way Bruce still gets to play as a full time forward, but we are not lumbered with one of our 22 who has little ability to find the ball or mark.

When and if Holmes improves in this regard he may warrant selection. In the mean time he is an injury back-up.

Hopefully Pierce can come on in leaps and bounds and be a genuine ruck/forward as neither Loner or Holmes yet look capable of playing in the same team as Hickey.

[supersaints]

It is all about versatility these days.
There is no room for a pure tap ruckman these days.
You need one key ruckman who can also impact the play in other ways especially marking, a backup (or two) ruckman in case he gets injured.
Then you need pinch-hitters in the team who can hold their own in the ruck like Josh Bruce.

Hawthorn had the ultimate pinch-hitter ruckman in Roughead.
His demise probably cost them a fourpeat.

Long John Holmes would have been a great acquisition 20 years ago but the game has moved on from one dimensional ruckman.
He would be exposed as a liability once the ball is in play.

Interesting comment re Hawthorn ... They won their three premierships playing two ruckman Hale and Big Ben .... Clegear and Ben where their two rucks until Clegear got injured, that's what likely cost them the four peat. Roughead was a huge out and is a much better pinch hitter than Josh Bruce, it's plain to see not only do we get trounced when Bruce goes into the middle our scoring dries up.

For what it's worth Hawthorn had five ruckman on thier list in 2016, though two were young like Pierce. It's been done to death but I posted all teams ruck stocks for 2016 and our ruck options were on the lower side than most clubs.

If we fluke a finals birth I would hate to see us get belted because Hickey and Longer were injured or completely out of form Holmes is very good insurance

I actually expect Pierce to progress and overtake the lot eventually

[spert]

Pretty obvious that Holmes is mobile enough and will have enough physical contesting presence around the ground to allow Bruce to spend most time in the forward line, as he was not quite getting his forward game working this season when being thrown into the ruck where he was largely ineffective, so we were down a player almost- we needed that extra couple of goals in some games. Holmes and Hickey share the ruck duties.

I see it the opposite way. We are down a man if he plays IMO at his present a output as he cannot read the play, and that is why he finds the ball so rarely.

Instead I would have Carlisle give Hickey a chop in the ruck. Carlisle has actually played in the ruck and does ok there. More than likely the opposition's No 1 ruck will be getting their chop out from a ruck/forward and so when they do so, Carlisle just follows them into the ruck.

In this way Bruce still gets to play as a full time forward, but we are not lumbered with one of our 22 who has little ability to find the ball or mark.

When and if Holmes improves in this regard he may warrant selection. In the mean time he is an injury back-up.

Hopefully Pierce can come on in leaps and bounds and be a genuine ruck/forward as neither Loner or Holmes yet look capable of playing in the same team as Hickey.

I probably should have said "down a forward" not down a player.