Do we all consider Riewoldt better than J.Brown

[magnifisaint]

So we rate players on GF performances now??

Feel sorry for great players who weren't lucky enough to be surrounded by other great players...
Obviously
Dunstall and Brereton
Many times better than
Lockett and Loewe then
And obviously
Doesn't matter what the stats say

What a load of bollocks written by imbeciles who simply don't know the game

Wow.

He's right

[stevie]

Glendinning played mainly CHB, Franklin plays FF so neither comparable to Carey and Kernahan.

Roo at his peak was more of a FF who lead way up the ground and roamed. Not your classic CHF nor your classic FF.

He just should be classed in the top 10 of players of the 2000's and that will do me

[ripplug66]

So we rate players on GF performances now??

Feel sorry for great players who weren't lucky enough to be surrounded by other great players...
Obviously
Dunstall and Brereton
Many times better than
Lockett and Loewe then
And obviously
Doesn't matter what the stats say

What a load of bollocks written by imbeciles who simply don't know the game

Wow.

He's right

How is he right? I don't think many people have Dunstall ahead of Plugger. Actually bugger all. And even if they do why are they imbeciles? Because they don't agree with him?

[BigMart]

I was going on the logic that winning premierships and performing in big games is the defining measure of greatness... You moron. <<< MOD EDIT. USER WARNED FOR ABUSE >>>

It's obviously a flawed logic and used the most obvious example to prove my point.

A measure of ones greatness is HOW many times a performance of theirs was a main factor in a team win

Which is why I rate Rob Harvey so high.... He had MORE best on grounds than any other... Therefore contribute more to team victories than anyone.

And if you compare absolute ability at their peak

46 possessions and 4 goals is an example of being dominant.

Lockett was of course better than Dunstall (not Ablett) and one of the arguments actually flies in the face of the Riewoldt and Brown argument
A true test of a great forward is how the perform in struggling teams.

[whiskers3614]

And Happy New Year to you Mr Mart.

please forgive the imbeciles and morons on this site for having the impertinence to express views not in accord with yours!

[ripplug66]

I was going on the logic that winning premierships and performing in big games is the defining measure of greatness... You moron. <<< MOD EDIT. USER WARNED FOR ABUSE >>>

It's obviously a flawed logic and used the most obvious example to prove my point.

A measure of ones greatness is HOW many times a performance of theirs was a main factor in a team win

Which is why I rate Rob Harvey so high.... He had MORE best on grounds than any other... Therefore contribute more to team victories than anyone.

And if you compare absolute ability at their peak

46 possessions and 4 goals is an example of being dominant.

Lockett was of course better than Dunstall (not Ablett) and one of the arguments actually flies in the face of the Riewoldt and Brown argument
A true test of a great forward is how the perform in struggling teams.

You moron? Is that why you don't quote so you can abuse and not get caught? As for the most obvious example well I don't think its obvious because bugger all think Dunstall is better than Plugger. It I made up by you to prove a point and then you call these so called people who haven't said it by the way imbeciles. And why was Lockett better than Dunstall and not Ablett? Because you think so and that's fair enough but if others want to include GF to decide how good a player someone is then they are imbeciles. Its an opinion and by the way if a true test is how forwards perform in struggling sides then why is Ablett better than Lockett? Sounds like you are having a bit each way. And I wish you were more polite to people. It may make you feel better.

And if GF aren't a true way to decide the ability of a player then what happens if a forward hasn't been in a struggling side? Seems unfair that they are rated below players who have just because you decide that's how you messure a forward.

[BigMart]

Ablett was more versatile, played his first six seasons up the ground.... Really didn't play as a full time FF until he was 30 and was only a part time FF from 27-30.... And really from 1989 - 1995 he was the main attraction in the AFL. Capable of the impossible, maybe YouTube his highlights (about 30 mins) and was almost unstoppable. From 93-95 he kicked goals for fun and won three straight colemans.

He still bagged 1000 goals in 250 games.... If he played the first half of his career as a deep fwd he may have kicked 1500+

Plugger was great, and was a machine goal kicker.... But he needed the ball kicked to him. Ablett could go and get his own ball. All three of Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall were extremely powerful... But Ablett was a better all round player....

He was a combination of James Hird, Jason Dunstall and Tony Modra

[bigcarl]

Ablett was more versatile, played his first six seasons up the ground.... Really didn't play as a full time FF until he was 30 and was only a part time FF from 27-30.... And really from 1989 - 1995 he was the main attraction in the AFL. Capable of the impossible, maybe YouTube his highlights (about 30 mins) and was almost unstoppable. From 93-95 he kicked goals for fun and won three straight colemans.

He still bagged 1000 goals in 250 games.... If he played the first half of his career as a deep fwd he may have kicked 1500+

Plugger was great, and was a machine goal kicker.... But he needed the ball kicked to him. Ablett could go and get his own ball. All three of Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall were extremely powerful... But Ablett was a better all round player....

He was a combination of James Hird, Jason Dunstall and Tony Modra

As with Dunstall, Ablett had the luxury of being surrounded by class in a team that perpetually played finals. Not so with Plugger. Sure he had a few classy teammates such as Harvey and Winmar, but it fell away pretty quickly and there were numerous scrubbers making up the numbers.

Great player, Ablett, but I have Lockett in front for match-winning ability.

Ablett was more versatile, I guess, but why would you play Lockett in a position other than full forward?

BTW, I saw Lockett go and get his own ball many times. His opponents used to beat a hasty retreat.

[Mr Magic]

I'm sure I recall Plugger playing for Vic against SA and changing the course of the game when switched from FF into the ruck in the last quarter?
Too short, not enough endurance and yet he managed to compete (win) the ruck contests around the ground and create the 'drive' that Vic needed to win the game.

Lockett was a freak footballer (different to the way Ablett was a freak) and I'm convinced he could have played almost any position/style if he set his mind to it. He had the ability to win the footy from impossible positions that no mere mortal footballer had any right to expect to even be in the contest, let alone win it. And once he won the contest, Plugger punished you on the scoreboard.
I recall discussing the 'Moorabbin game' with SOS and how he spoke in 'awe' of what Plugger did to him/Carlton that day. It didn't matter if SOS was in front/behind/on the side, Plugger just 'dominated' him like no other player ever did before or after. And SOS played on all of the premier forwards of that era.

[evertonfc]

Riewoldt, but not by much. Brown is an absolute champion.

Riewoldt is now juggling with Lockett and Harvey as the best Saint I've seen, and both of them would make a revised AFL Team of the Century.

[evertonfc]

Ablett was more versatile, played his first six seasons up the ground.... Really didn't play as a full time FF until he was 30 and was only a part time FF from 27-30.... And really from 1989 - 1995 he was the main attraction in the AFL. Capable of the impossible, maybe YouTube his highlights (about 30 mins) and was almost unstoppable. From 93-95 he kicked goals for fun and won three straight colemans.

He still bagged 1000 goals in 250 games.... If he played the first half of his career as a deep fwd he may have kicked 1500+

Plugger was great, and was a machine goal kicker.... But he needed the ball kicked to him. Ablett could go and get his own ball. All three of Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall were extremely powerful... But Ablett was a better all round player....

He was a combination of James Hird, Jason Dunstall and Tony Modra

Ablett was incredible, nobody doubts that. But he also had unbelievable service from a team geared to his strengths - all out attack, and attack some more, with a ball-winning midfield (Couch, Hocking, Bews, Bairstow, Mansfield, Bruns) that just kept kicking it to him.

Lockett could have kicked over 1500 had he played for Geelong.

[st.byron]

I reckon Ablett's the best player I've seen. His all round ability to win the footy and hurt teams on the scoreboard was incredible. Plugger is very close, but Ablett's consistency and freakishness all over the ground was incredible. And he was tough. I was at the WACA, when the Weagles still played there, and saw Ablett win the game off his own boot in the last quarter. In the third I was standing right next to the behind post and Ablett, in a contest, finished up running full pelt into the post. There was a kind of a "dumph' noise and the post shook like crazy. Ablett just got up and kept running....

[BigMart]

Only Saints supporters would rate Tony ahead of Ablett Snr... Plugger was great, but it shows how great Ablett was... He won a B@F in 1984 as a mid, played HF, was the reason Geelong was so great... Not even Hawthorn could control him.

His marks and numbers were unbelievable at times. He was X Factor and match winner.

Plugger was the greatest FF ever

But I rate Ablett Snr in the top 5 players in the history of the game.

With Carey, Matthews, Williams, Farmer, Ablett Jnr

Those players were the best players in the comp for extended periods of time.

[bigcarl]

Only Saints supporters would rate Tony ahead of Ablett Snr... Plugger was great, but it shows how great Ablett was... He won a B@F in 1984 as a mid, played HF, was the reason Geelong was so great... Not even Hawthorn could control him.

His marks and numbers were unbelievable at times. He was X Factor and match winner.

Plugger was the greatest FF ever

But I rate Ablett Snr in the top 5 players in the history of the game.

With Carey, Matthews, Williams, Farmer, Ablett Jnr

Those players were the best players in the comp for extended periods of time.

Question Marto and an honest answer please, I'm curious. Did you see many St Kilda games between, say, '87 and '94?

Many who did see Plugger at his peak in those years consider him the greatest. Of course there are also those could never forgive his leaving ... I understand that point of view


Orhers subconsciously disqualify him from being a footballer because he played full forward.

I'd say the main difference between how Lockett and Carey, for instance, dominated a defence was that Lockett did it better.

[samuraisaint]

I reckon Ablett's the best player I've seen. His all round ability to win the footy and hurt teams on the scoreboard was incredible. Plugger is very close, but Ablett's consistency and freakishness all over the ground was incredible. And he was tough. I was at the WACA, when the Weagles still played there, and saw Ablett win the game off his own boot in the last quarter. In the third I was standing right next to the behind post and Ablett, in a contest, finished up running full pelt into the post. There was a kind of a "dumph' noise and the post shook like crazy. Ablett just got up and kept running....

Have seen all of the players discussed, the best player I have ever seen is Leigh Mathews. He was an absolute freak, and pound for pound the toughest and most skilfull I have seen play at 178cms. I remember a game vividly at Princes Park in 1981 when we had Hawthorn in a position where we could have got over them, but then Mathews absolutely dominated in the centre and it was game over. This pattern repeated itself over and over again.

I believe Riewoldt is a better player than Brown was as he covers more ground and is more capable of turning a game in St. Kilda's favour than Brown was at Brisbane.

Lockett was a better player than Dunstall, but Hawthorn got better value out of Dunstall. If Lockett had had the same attitude at St. Kilda that he had at the Swans, anything would have been possible when he was in his prime. Great, great player, but by his own admission didn't always prepare himself to his best advantage, nor was he always as disciplined on-field, but then again he had a lot to put up with. Whatever; he was a beauty.

Nicky Winmar was the best St. Kilda player I have seen in my lifetime, absolute ripper, followed by Lockett and then very close behind him, Riewoldt.

[samuraisaint]

Ablett was more versatile, played his first six seasons up the ground.... Really didn't play as a full time FF until he was 30 and was only a part time FF from 27-30.... And really from 1989 - 1995 he was the main attraction in the AFL. Capable of the impossible, maybe YouTube his highlights (about 30 mins) and was almost unstoppable. From 93-95 he kicked goals for fun and won three straight colemans.

He still bagged 1000 goals in 250 games.... If he played the first half of his career as a deep fwd he may have kicked 1500+

Plugger was great, and was a machine goal kicker.... But he needed the ball kicked to him. Ablett could go and get his own ball. All three of Ablett, Lockett and Dunstall were extremely powerful... But Ablett was a better all round player....

He was a combination of James Hird, Jason Dunstall and Tony Modra

As with Dunstall, Ablett had the luxury of being surrounded by class in a team that perpetually played finals. Not so with Plugger. Sure he had a few classy teammates such as Harvey and Winmar, but it fell away pretty quickly and there were numerous scrubbers making up the numbers.

Great player, Ablett, but I have Lockett in front for match-winning ability.

Ablett was more versatile, I guess, but why would you play Lockett in a position other than full forward?

BTW, I saw Lockett go and get his own ball many times. His opponents used to beat a hasty retreat.

He obviously believed Winmar helped him as he advised the Swans strongly to go after Winmar when he arrived at Sydney. He also played alongside Craig O'Brien, a forward who had his career ressurected by St. Kilda and who kicked 60 goals for us twice - and after Lockett got the Swans to chase OB who did go to Sydney to play alongside Lockett; they combined well enough again to play in a GF together.

[Vazelos]

no one was better than Plugger from 87-94.

[ripplug66]

no one was better than Plugger from 87-94.

Exactly. End of argument. No player in the history of the game has had a year like plugger in 1991. Easily the best Saint ever. The gapo to second is huge and in the top 3 I have seen. Saying that he wouldn't play in todays footy unless he changed his build and his training. There are many champions in the same boat.

[Mr Magic]

no one was better than Plugger from 87-94.

Exactly. End of argument. No player in the history of the game has had a year like plugger in 1991. Easily the best Saint ever. The gapo to second is huge and in the top 3 I have seen. Saying that he wouldn't play in todays footy unless he changed his build and his training. There are many champions in the same boat.

I saw Baldock and rate him as the best Saint I've seen.
Just in front of Plugger
Just in front of Harvey.
Roo is next for me
Then Stewart

As for rating them against opposition players I'll leave that to Yabby who once stated that he couldn't split Baldock and Matthews as the best players he coached.

[ripplug66]

no one was better than Plugger from 87-94.

Exactly. End of argument. No player in the history of the game has had a year like plugger in 1991. Easily the best Saint ever. The gapo to second is huge and in the top 3 I have seen. Saying that he wouldn't play in todays footy unless he changed his build and his training. There are many champions in the same boat.

I saw Baldock and rate him as the best Saint I've seen.
Just in front of Plugger
Just in front of Harvey.
Roo is next for me
Then Stewart

As for rating them against opposition players I'll leave that to Yabby who once stated that he couldn't split Baldock and Matthews as the best players he coached.

Didn't really see the Doc but my old man did and he said he was the best he saw until Plugger. He now could never rate anyone ahead of Plugger. One thing I will say is our top are as good as any in the AFL/VFL history. Unfortunately we have bugger all to show for it.

[Mr Magic]

no one was better than Plugger from 87-94.

Exactly. End of argument. No player in the history of the game has had a year like plugger in 1991. Easily the best Saint ever. The gapo to second is huge and in the top 3 I have seen. Saying that he wouldn't play in todays footy unless he changed his build and his training. There are many champions in the same boat.

I saw Baldock and rate him as the best Saint I've seen.
Just in front of Plugger
Just in front of Harvey.
Roo is next for me
Then Stewart

As for rating them against opposition players I'll leave that to Yabby who once stated that he couldn't split Baldock and Matthews as the best players he coached.

Other than some saintsational memories!


Didn't really see the Doc but my old man did and he said he was the best he saw until Plugger. He now could never rate anyone ahead of Plugger. One thing I will say is our top are as good as any in the AFL/VFL history. Unfortunately we have bugger all to show for it.

[skeptic]

Sorry to weigh in late and the topic has shifted somewhat

On the original topic, Riewoldt Vs Brown is a joke. I wouldn't have Brown even worthy to be in that discussion. Riewoldt vs Pavlich is a more worthy comparison and I would have Treadre ahead of Jonathan too.

Brown was a good player but he only had a few really good seasons compared to the others

[ripplug66]

Sorry to weigh in late and the topic has shifted somewhat

On the original topic, Riewoldt Vs Brown is a joke. I wouldn't have Brown even worthy to be in that discussion. Riewoldt vs Pavlich is a more worthy comparison and I would have Treadre ahead of Jonathan too.

Brown was a good player but he only had a few really good seasons compared to the others

I wouldn't think the comparison is a joke. Matter of fact I reckon he would be voted better than Roo by unbiased people. I wouldn't agree with that but it is way to close to suggest its a joke. Anyway there really shouldn't be a comparison as they play completely different. Roo is more your lead up type and Brown is more like an old fashioned CHF. Brown probably couldn't play that way in todays footy.

[kosifantutti]

He obviously believed Winmar helped him as he advised the Swans strongly to go after Winmar when he arrived at Sydney. He also played alongside Craig O'Brien, a forward who had his career ressurected by St. Kilda and who kicked 60 goals for us twice -.

Where do you get your stats from? I'd try another source.

BTW. Riewoldt is / was better than Brown.

[CURLY]

I'm interested as to what GF Brown dominated?? Seems to be a myth.