Again on the Ruckman

[bob__71]

I think BM is enjoying the new forum rules a little too much.

[BigMart]

Happy feet

I've played it since 1987 and will continue for a few years yet... Only 40....and the vast majority in the midfield?! So only about 27 years or so?...

What part of Michael Gardiners performance was instrumental?

His 10ppg?
4 marks per game?
20 HO per game?
0.5 goals and tackles?

1 absolutely dominant AFL game vs Geelong

They are solid stats for an afl Ruckman, really....

Why the low B&F finish for an instrumental player?

Hayes, Goddard, Gilbert, Montaga, Riewoldt, Fisher, Dal, Milne were instrumental

Gardiner, Dawson, Blake, jones, McQualter were important

[Cairnsman]

On 97

Shaun Rehn dominated because he was a much better footballer than Brett Cook.... Cook was possibly the 21st best StK player.... Rehn in the top 6 Adelaide players..... Spider would of been are far stronger opponent, as he was a good player

Was that crucial because of the position.... Not really, but because of the huge difference in ability between the two, giving Adelaide a dominating playier. If it was a Dominant HBF vs a insipid HFF it would have also 'killed us' .... And actually, that happened and he won a medal...

Vidovic was at best a GOP and unless he knocked Rehn out, he would have also been well beaten.

If you are inferior to your opponent, you are inferior, and that ultimately weakens your team. Seems logical to me.

You only need one passenger in a GF to turn wheels up but a fit and strong ruckman standing tall in the last quarter of a GF is probably more crucial than a lot of other positions.

Clark Keating anyone?

[BigMart]

So are you saying Josh Fraser was uncompetitive?

That's what I would suggest... Which would in turn make his hit outs very important in midfield domination

[saintspremiers]

Gardy was a gun for us. Sometimes raw stats don't paint the full picture. Is there an intimidation stat? The psychological pressure a certain player can exert can have massive significance.

[Cairnsman]

So are you saying Josh Fraser was uncompetitive?

That's what I would suggest... Which would in turn make his hit outs very important in midfield domination

Not uncompetitive, inferior.

Hitouts to advantage can be a secondary skill or strategy provided you have some other superior skill.

Keating is just one example of a long, long line of premiership ruckman that was much better than his opponent. How many premiership teams can you list that had inferior ruckman.

You can't say ruckman are overrated because they have to have something in their bag of tricks otherwise they become a lead weight.

[happy feet]

Happy feet

I've played it since 1987 and will continue for a few years yet... Only 40....and the vast majority in the midfield?! So only about 27 years or so?...

What part of Michael Gardiners performance was instrumental?

His 10ppg?
4 marks per game?
20 HO per game?
0.5 goals and tackles?

1 absolutely dominant AFL game vs Geelong

They are solid stats for an afl Ruckman, really....

Why the low B&F finish for an instrumental player?

Hayes, Goddard, Gilbert, Montaga, Riewoldt, Fisher, Dal, Milne were instrumental

Gardiner, Dawson, Blake, jones, McQualter were important

Yeah, probably played with the Nar Nar Goon 3rds. Go and take a cold shower BM. The sooner P66 is back on line the better.

[BigMart]

Good reply happy feet... Says a bit about you really, doesn't it?

Btw
Hard to play 3rd for 20 odd years... They are generally an under age team. Get to a local game some time and watch, because you've never had a kick in anger have you?

I would suggest Ryan Turbull was not a dominant player
John Barnes... Not as a power Ruckman
Greg Dear... Was just a reasonable player
Matthew Capuano, Dean Brogan, Jason Ball, Max Bailey... None of these players were stars imo

Ah... Intangible stats... When real stats aren't there?..

[gringo]

Good reply happy feet... Says a bit about you really, doesn't it?

Btw
Hard to play 3rd for 20 odd years... They are generally an under age team. Get to a local game some time and watch, because you've never had a kick in anger have you?

I would suggest Ryan Turbull was not a dominant player
John Barnes... Not as a power Ruckman
Greg Dear... Was just a reasonable player
Matthew Capuano, Dean Brogan, Jason Ball, Max Bailey... None of these players were stars imo

Ah... Intangible stats... When real stats aren't there?..

I hate to say it Marto but I think he's right, Plugger is the ying to your yang. You are like a two legged chair with out him. This is all lop sided. Plugger isn't one of my favourites but he's like those bits of lead stuck to your car wheel. You guys need each other. Fire and water.

[Cairnsman]

Good reply happy feet... Says a bit about you really, doesn't it?

Btw
Hard to play 3rd for 20 odd years... They are generally an under age team. Get to a local game some time and watch, because you've never had a kick in anger have you?

I would suggest Ryan Turbull was not a dominant player
John Barnes... Not as a power Ruckman
Greg Dear... Was just a reasonable player
Matthew Capuano, Dean Brogan, Jason Ball, Max Bailey... None of these players were stars imo

Ah... Intangible stats... When real stats aren't there?..

Didn't say stars...said inferior...Was Keating a star? He had a career high 39 hitouts in the 2002 GF...couldn't find how many were to advantage but I'm pretty sure he wasn't inferior on the day.

[Cairnsman]

Good reply happy feet... Says a bit about you really, doesn't it?

Btw
Hard to play 3rd for 20 odd years... They are generally an under age team. Get to a local game some time and watch, because you've never had a kick in anger have you?

I would suggest Ryan Turbull was not a dominant player
John Barnes... Not as a power Ruckman
Greg Dear... Was just a reasonable player
Matthew Capuano, Dean Brogan, Jason Ball, Max Bailey... None of these players were stars imo

Ah... Intangible stats... When real stats aren't there?..

I hate to say it Marto but I think he's right, Plugger is the ying to your yang. You are like a two legged chair with out him. This is all lop sided. Plugger isn't one of my favourites but he's like those bits of lead stuck to your car wheel. You guys need each other. Fire and water.

I'd say more like one hand clapping

[maverick]

Just because you have played the game for a long time doesn't mean you understand it or can pick who is and who isn't important.

[SainterK]

Derricks did ok vs 2 ruckman.

I guess it depends if your mids can rove to anything, or can only implement a plan.

[saintspremiers]

Good reply happy feet... Says a bit about you really, doesn't it?

Btw
Hard to play 3rd for 20 odd years... They are generally an under age team. Get to a local game some time and watch, because you've never had a kick in anger have you?

I would suggest Ryan Turbull was not a dominant player
John Barnes... Not as a power Ruckman
Greg Dear... Was just a reasonable player
Matthew Capuano, Dean Brogan, Jason Ball, Max Bailey... None of these players were stars imo

Ah... Intangible stats... When real stats aren't there?..

I hate to say it Marto but I think he's right, Plugger is the ying to your yang. You are like a two legged chair with out him. This is all lop sided. Plugger isn't one of my favourites but he's like those bits of lead stuck to your car wheel. You guys need each other. Fire and water.

I'd say more like one hand clapping

Stop it boys. I'm LMFAO reading all this.

Hey BM, just a tip - lighten up a bit!

[BigMart]

Same silly stuff...

It'd be great to stick on point...

I suppose one way to know if someone has a credible POV... Is whether or not they stay on topic.

Having a personal go, like happy feet is just a sign of someone desperately trying to argue without being able to...

[skeptic]

Big mart, I'm not sure what planet you are on. Michael Gardiner was instrumental in our success in the two grand final years. Me thinks you have never played the game, and so your knowledge is shallow.

I think in 09, Gardiner really fell away late in the season... about the same time our complete dominance did as well

maybe there's something in that

[HitTheBoundary]

Same silly stuff...

It'd be great to stick on point...

I suppose one way to know if someone has a credible POV... Is whether or not they stay on topic.

Having a personal go, like happy feet is just a sign of someone desperately trying to argue without being able to...

I think your need to continually list your amazing and endlessly fascinating CV is where the angst comes from.

Where did you find the stats that list HO to advantage?

[saintsRrising]

On around the ground effectiveness...I think long-term that was one reason, besides the trade leverage gained, that we let Ben go. Ben is very slow and struggles to get to contests. Hickey is quicker and can get to more contests, keep up with his opponent etc..

Hickey is better at tap outs now. Over the next few seasons I would expect all aspects of his game to improve. He is late to football, and so has a steeper learning curve on this than when compared to other young ruckman.

[bergholt]

On around the ground effectiveness...I think long-term that was one reason, besides the trade leverage gained, that we let Ben go. Ben is very slow and struggles to get to contests. Hickey is quicker and can get to more contests, keep up with his opponent etc.

Is that in any way true? I don't think McEvoy's that slow - and anyway, Lenny's not exactly fast but he gets to plenty of contests.

Stats say that McEvoy has more possessions, marks, tackles, goals than Hickey. Surely that suggests that he's getting to more contests?

[saintsRrising]

On around the ground effectiveness...I think long-term that was one reason, besides the trade leverage gained, that we let Ben go. Ben is very slow and struggles to get to contests. Hickey is quicker and can get to more contests, keep up with his opponent etc.

Is that in any way true? I don't think McEvoy's that slow - and anyway, Lenny's not exactly fast but he gets to plenty of contests.

Stats say that McEvoy has more possessions, marks, tackles, goals than Hickey. Surely that suggests that he's getting to more contests?

Long-term means the future.

However this year the disposal averages are 14 to to mac and 12 to tom.

From my viewing Tom is more mobile than mac. As he learns to read the play better etc, I am expecting that part of his game to improve.

[Scollop]

We traded Macca because we need to rebuild our midfield and not because Tom is odds on to be better than Ben. I think ruckmen are not the answer for us to climb back up the ladder.

We need at least 4 more like Billings, Dunstan, Acres and Templeton in the next couple of years and we need to bring in some silk and speed like Port Adelaide. Great example from Hinkley yesterday that a dominant tap ruckman is not the panacea.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-10/h ... post-match

SUBBING his only recognised ruckman when the game was on the line, facing the AFL's most imposing big man in Fremantle's Aaron Sandilands, was an audacious move by Port Adelaide coach Ken Hinkley.

It would have looked a foolish one, too, had the Dockers made the most of the 211cm man mountain's dominance.

But Hinkley backed his side's speed and ball-winning ability at ground level and the gamble paid off as the Power zipped home to seal a seventh win of the season.

Subbing Brent Renouf, who was a late inclusion for Matthew Lobbe (calf soreness), at three-quarter time left Jackson Trengove and Justin Westhoff to ruck for the last term, and the stats are proof of their effectiveness to create contests.

The Power won the centre clearances 6-0 in the final quarter and won 16 inside 50s to seven as they turned a five-point three-quarter time deficit into an 18-point win.

[Con Gorozidis]

[dragit]

Although it won't suit your argument, I think you need to look a little deeper than one incomplete bye round...
If you have a look at the data over the past couple of years, there's a clear correlation between winning hitouts and clearances.
But obviously no one stat leads to winning...
Ideally you have a ruckmen who can win hitouts and play a decent role around the ground, however taking one or two contested marks each week is not going to make up for losing hitouts 2:1.
The new franchise clubs have so much talent on their lists that we'll probably see them using super athletic key position players as ruckmen, I think GWS have 13 or 14 KP players already and I'm sure they'll take another in the top 5 this year. It really is absurd.

[dragit]

We traded Macca because we need to rebuild our midfield and not because Tom is odds on to be better than Ben. I think ruckmen are not the answer for us to climb back up the ladder.

We need at least 4 more like Billings, Dunstan, Acres and Templeton in the next couple of years and we need to bring in some silk and speed like Port Adelaide. Great example from Hinkley yesterday that a dominant tap ruckman is not the panacea.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-10/h ... post-match

SUBBING his only recognised ruckman when the game was on the line, facing the AFL's most imposing big man in Fremantle's Aaron Sandilands, was an audacious move by Port Adelaide coach Ken Hinkley.

It would have looked a foolish one, too, had the Dockers made the most of the 211cm man mountain's dominance.

But Hinkley backed his side's speed and ball-winning ability at ground level and the gamble paid off as the Power zipped home to seal a seventh win of the season.

Subbing Brent Renouf, who was a late inclusion for Matthew Lobbe (calf soreness), at three-quarter time left Jackson Trengove and Justin Westhoff to ruck for the last term, and the stats are proof of their effectiveness to create contests.

The Power won the centre clearances 6-0 in the final quarter and won 16 inside 50s to seven as they turned a five-point three-quarter time deficit into an 18-point win.

Agree with you here, though I wouldn't call subbing Renouf at 3qtr time particularly bold. He's a battler at best, I don't think they would have subbed Lobbe out if he was playing.

[samoht]

Although it won't suit your argument, I think you need to look a little deeper than one incomplete bye round...
If you have a look at the data over the past couple of years, there's a clear correlation between winning hitouts and clearances.
But obviously no one stat leads to winning...
Ideally you have a ruckmen who can win hitouts and play a decent role around the ground, however taking one or two contested marks each week is not going to make up for losing hitouts 2:1.
The new franchise clubs have so much talent on their lists that we'll probably see them using super athletic key position players as ruckmen, I think GWS have 13 or 14 KP players already and I'm sure they'll take another in the top 5 this year. It really is absurd.

re: the correlation, dragit -
Most clearances don't amount to much, as the players are usually under extreme pressure, being chased, etc., - and the ball usually gets turned over in most cases after a couple of handballs or a stray kick.
So let's say a team ends up with 30 more hitouts and 6 more clearances - only one of those clearances may actually amount to something - a shot at goal. After all, it usually takes 30 possessions on average to kick a goal.

It's not a big advantage.
So a ruckman's real worth is in how many possessions he wins around the ground - and all he needs to do is compete in the ruck!

Did you get a chance to watch the games over the weekend, dragit?
Both McEvoy and Jamar were near their opposition's goal and at the drop of the ball, well clear of their opposing ruckman, and so both had the perfect chance to win a hitout that would advantage their teams, but they both hit the ball straight down the throat of an opposition player who goaled!

So we badly need a hitout to disadvantage stat (I think we're too focused on the hitout to advantage - as that's the only stat we're given)!

... and a Great post by scollop. I agree that we lack speedy, classy midfielders more so than a so called "quality" tap ruckmen - to complement our inside midfielders, and that was a smart move by Hinkley (and not much of a gamble). Sandilands is way over-rated for his (indiscriminate) hitout numbers.