Selection for the 2013 season

[dragit]

You cannot simply tip all the young guys into the team at once and not expect it to harm their development.

I don't think anyone is asking for that…
But what happens if the best 22 are old but not good enough? Do we just keep playing that team into oblivion?

Geary Fisher Gwilt
Gilbert Dempster Ray
Montagna Hayes Steven
Saad Riewoldt Stanley
Milne Maister Schneider

Mac NDS Armitage

Jones Simpkin Roberton

Siposs?

That's probably our strongest side, but we know it isn't good enough… Do we just keep putting that side out on the park, even getting beaten by 3/4 of the comp? What happens when Roo, Milne, Kosi, Hayes, Dempster, CJ, Fisher retire… we just play the next rung with an average of 5 games experience? Then we really would look like Melbourne, absolutely smashed by every side.

We have to sacrifice a few senior spots each week to integrate young talent in while we still have stars at the club. Fortunately or unfortunately, we have enough injuries that the hard calls don't need to be made yet.

[dragit]

who says i was replying to you?
i didnt quote you
you have trouble getting off that horse???

sorry, who were you replying to?
Yes my horse just keeps growing, or I am shrinking, I'm scared to fall from this height… someone help me down.

[mad saint guy]

sooooo
according to the OP
jonesy should not be picked in the 22
unless he hits 'outstanding form in the vfl'


i like the op, i read his posts but, dude...seriously wtf??

all because he apparently cant kick?????
because im telling you he does EVERYTHING else right
id drop milne before jones on the last two games form

Does everything else right? His tagging has been ineffective since 2010. Most of his handballs are panicked disposals to someone in a worse position than him, he has never used his pace to advantage, he's useless overhead, doesn't hit the scoreboard and his tackles rarely stick. He is very fit, gets a bit of the ball and tries his guts out but he's not going to get us into the finals and is taking up a spot that could be used to give Ross/Ledger/Curren/Wright/Murdoch/Saunders valuable experience.

Even when they were on top, Collingwood and Geelong have blooded kids in favour of veterans who could still do a solid job and that is why they won't be bottoming out any time soon. Why on earth would we not adopt this approach when we have no hope of making the finals, let alone win a flag? I'm not saying we need to drop everyone who can't play another 150 games, but there's absolutely nothing to be gained from playing veterans on the fringe of the 22 while we have kids who could easily surpass them with a handful of AFL games under their belt.

[Sobraz]

It's not so much 'gifting' games to kids, more about identifying young players with talent and giving them an opportunity or taste of the top level, see if they can step up.. It should be much easier for a young player to warrant a senior appearance than it would be for Blake for instance if he were dropped..

Some players are better suited to AFL than VFL... Rhys is an example.. I dont think Stanley ever played a game in the VFL where he's been clearly best of ground.. Just bits and pieces here and there which have indicated he may have what it takes... For mine, he has been much better performed at the top level than he ever did at Sandy...

It's about the opportunity and exposure... Some take it with both hands and step up, others show that they will not make the grade... Siposs & Newnes are 2 more that have never torn apart the VFL, but look more than ready for AFL...

Seb Ross reportedly had a good game this week in a losing side.. If he backs it up with a decent performance again, I'd look at giving him a 4 game run in the 1's.. Not VFL BOG's required, just consistent output with upside.. Same goes with Wright... Markworth was in the same boat late last year, which is why his injury is so disappointing..

As for CJ, equally as important as backing in kids is rewarding good form... He was outstanding v the Tigers, and absolutely deserves his position, irrespective of the clubs direction...

[plugger66]

It's not so much 'gifting' games to kids, more about identifying young players with talent and giving them an opportunity or taste of the top level, see if they can step up.. It should be much easier for a young player to warrant a senior appearance than it would be for Blake for instance if he were dropped..

Some players are better suited to AFL than VFL... Rhys is an example.. I dont think Stanley ever played a game in the VFL where he's been clearly best of ground.. Just bits and pieces here and there which have indicated he may have what it takes... For mine, he has been much better performed at the top level than he ever did at Sandy...

It's about the opportunity and exposure... Some take it with both hands and step up, others show that they will not make the grade... Siposs & Newnes are 2 more that have never torn apart the VFL, but look more than ready for AFL...

Seb Ross reportedly had a good game this week in a losing side.. If he backs it up with a decent performance again, I'd look at giving him a 4 game run in the 1's.. Not VFL BOG's required, just consistent output with upside.. Same goes with Wright... Markworth was in the same boat late last year, which is why his injury is so disappointing..

As for CJ, equally as important as backing in kids is rewarding good form... He was outstanding v the Tigers, and absolutely deserves his position, irrespective of the clubs direction...

Dont like players being basically guaranteed a certain amount of games in a row. Say Ross comes in and get 2 possessions in 2 games. he has no right to play a third game unless no one is touching it at sandy. Drop him and let him then get some form back at Sandy and then bring him in again. They are young so missing some games in the seniors wont hurt.

The problem we have with our young guys is only Wright and Murdoch showed anything in the practice games and it is even harder in real games. I know we have some young guys at sandy but im not convinced many will make it. And we have no depth even though some thought we did after winning silly practice matches in pre season. Where is the next Dal coming from. Someone you knew as soon as you saw him at the Scorpions was going to make it.

[Sobraz]

Where is the next Dal coming from. Someone you knew as soon as you saw him at the Scorpions was going to make it.

That's the worry...

That's why we need to try and fast track some of the potentials that may max out at 85% of Dals quality.. Agree that if a young player comes in and gets 2 touches in 2 games they must go back, but that will indicate that they probably aren't up to it... My point is, if they are brought in without dominating the VFL and get 8, 10, 15 touches and show something, they must be given more grace... Newnes is an example of this right now IMO...

[BigMart]

Players need preserve fence and opportunity.

Armitage dominated the first game I saw him play in 2007. ABC award that day... 25 touches opposed to Shaun Grigg. It was patently obvious he could play. He played far too much reserves footy!

That being said... If we are not going to make finals....

Why not do what Doc Baldock did, what Tony Shaw did, What Al Clarkson did and most poignantly GT did.... He gave plenty of opportunity to young giys in order to find out something about them. In all of those cases the teams played finals three years after being crap. Mainly because you players were given experience.

[bergholt]

Armitage dominated the first game I saw him play in 2007. ABC award that day... 25 touches opposed to Shaun Grigg. It was patently obvious he could play.

Myles Sewell and Shane Valenti have dominated a lot of VFL games, should we sign them? Sometimes players are good at VFL level but can't make the step up.

There was no reason to assume that Armo would be one of those who'd make it without seeing how he went. In his first three games in 07 he averaged less than 7 disposals a game, and a couple of tackles. He was OK early in 08, up and down, then came back in for the finals and was pretty much anonymous - only 4 possessions against Hawthorn in the prelim, in his 16th game. At that point no-one knew if he'd be a player or not.

For comparison, Shane Valenti was playing for Melbourne about the same time and averaging more than 17 touches a game, at only a year or so older. What was there to suggest that Armo was going to make it and Valenti wasn't?

[BigMart]

Talent

[The Redeemer]

sooooo
according to the OP
jonesy should not be picked in the 22
unless he hits 'outstanding form in the vfl'


i like the op, i read his posts but, dude...seriously wtf??

all because he apparently cant kick?????
because im telling you he does EVERYTHING else right
id drop milne before jones on the last two games form

Does everything else right? His tagging has been ineffective since 2010. Most of his handballs are panicked disposals to someone in a worse position than him, he has never used his pace to advantage, he's useless overhead, doesn't hit the scoreboard and his tackles rarely stick. He is very fit, gets a bit of the ball and tries his guts out but he's not going to get us into the finals and is taking up a spot that could be used to give Ross/Ledger/Curren/Wright/Murdoch/Saunders valuable experience.

Even when they were on top, Collingwood and Geelong have blooded kids in favour of veterans who could still do a solid job and that is why they won't be bottoming out any time soon. Why on earth would we not adopt this approach when we have no hope of making the finals, let alone win a flag? I'm not saying we need to drop everyone who can't play another 150 games, but there's absolutely nothing to be gained from playing veterans on the fringe of the 22 while we have kids who could easily surpass them with a handful of AFL games under their belt.

Thank you

In summation, CJ has been a waste of money for a few years now

[Scollop]

It's not so much 'gifting' games to kids, more about identifying young players with talent and giving them an opportunity or taste of the top level, see if they can step up.. It should be much easier for a young player to warrant a senior appearance than it would be for Blake for instance if he were dropped..

Some players are better suited to AFL than VFL... Rhys is an example.. I dont think Stanley ever played a game in the VFL where he's been clearly best of ground.. Just bits and pieces here and there which have indicated he may have what it takes... For mine, he has been much better performed at the top level than he ever did at Sandy...

It's about the opportunity and exposure... Some take it with both hands and step up, others show that they will not make the grade... Siposs & Newnes are 2 more that have never torn apart the VFL, but look more than ready for AFL...

Seb Ross reportedly had a good game this week in a losing side.. If he backs it up with a decent performance again, I'd look at giving him a 4 game run in the 1's.. Not VFL BOG's required, just consistent output with upside.. Same goes with Wright... Markworth was in the same boat late last year, which is why his injury is so disappointing..

As for CJ, equally as important as backing in kids is rewarding good form... He was outstanding v the Tigers, and absolutely deserves his position, irrespective of the clubs direction...

+1

[Con Gorozidis]

+ 1

Simpkin also seems to be better at AFL level than VFL level.

So you cant just rigidly stick to - you only get a game if youre BOG at VFL for a month in a row. Some blokes dominate VFL and cant play AFL. Some blokes look average at VFL and are good players at the higher level.

We need to play kids and find out who can do what.

[SainterK]

I hope Markworth is well over his knee, he'll be banging down the door again soon....he just radiates this sense of self belief IMO, similar to what you get from Newnes. Not cocky, just self assured.

[dcstkfc]

CJ cant be dropped no matter what stage our club is at. You must reward players when they play well and CJ did last week. On the other hand Blake didnt and shouldnt play again unless we are really struggling in that position or his form is just to good to overlook.

And never gift games to any player no matter how young they are. Must show a bit in the seconds.

Great post. Totally agree

[BigMart]

Robert Harvey, Jayson Danyels, Brett Bowey were gifted games.... We found a player in that group

[bobmurray]

Robert Harvey, Jayson Danyels, Brett Bowey were gifted games.... We found a player in that group

And he played for the saints twice

[gringo]

CJ has had two very solid games so should hold his spot. Ray had a shocking game and was dropped. When our senior guys start to drop off they should be under pressure. I would drop Milney and lenny if they had games like they did on friday next week. Blake should go out for Simpkin.

[Cairnsman]

The OP says get rid of Jones but I would argue he is the best tagger in the AFL and with the exception of his kicking he is bloddy good. If you are kicking him out of the team because of his kicking then based on that selection criteria you would have to say Jack has to go as well.

[plugger66]

Robert Harvey, Jayson Danyels, Brett Bowey were gifted games.... We found a player in that group

How could you possibly remember that? You cant state things as fact unless you know it to be fact. Might sound impressive but a real poor why of dicussing things.

[BigMart]

Dearly Baldock has stated it..... And it was well understood that he said to all those players that they'll be playing the last 4 games of the season regardless of performance. Robert Harvey has echoed it, and I know Brett Bowey who has told me that Doc gave him his start at 18/19 when he wasn't ready, but it gave him an understanding of where he had to get to. Brett was a great player and only retired in 2008.

Ken Sheldon did the same .... And has stated it in interviews. Watch some youtube. He had the balls to do it (trialling players, Everitt, Peckitt, Georgiou) in a team that was going to play finals... To see if he could find more players to improve the club going fwd

But hey,

You're the forum police... Holding people to account.

Maybe you should hold yourself to the same standards... And understand you are not important or even that knowledgable when it comes to footy... But you are argumentative .... There's something

[Cairnsman]

Pass the popcorn Matrix!

[spert]

A pity we are relying on a core of players near the end of their careers, and then have a huge talent/ experience gap. Even if we had won one of the premierships 2009/10, we would still face this dilemma, as I expect Lyon wouldn't have had any interest in recruiting or development. I suspect the club pressured Lyon in 2011 to do something about it, but he saw the big $$, a mature reasonably good team, and that was an easy option for the front-runner that he is. The President, board and CEO are just as much to blame, probably letting the tail wag the dog, and are now scrambling to make up lost ground throwing the hot potato in the laps of Watters and Pelchin who basically have to start from scratch to build a new team.

[bergholt]

Even if we had won one of the premierships 2009/10, we would still face this dilemma...

But we wouldn't give a fat rat's clacker because we'd have a flag. I think it's fair enough to go for broke.

[spert]

Doesn't build a good future though- years of being a cellar dweller makes the gloss of a premiership fade away quickly

[The Redeemer]

CJ has had two very solid games so should hold his spot. Ray had a shocking game and was dropped. When our senior guys start to drop off they should be under pressure. I would drop Milney and lenny if they had games like they did on friday next week. Blake should go out for Simpkin.

Can you state that CJs disposal has been AFL standard?

It has not. He gets the ball, runs around a full 360 and then handballs it off to someone in a poorer position from when he first took possession. Go figure.

Teams allow him the ball because he is about as dangerous and useful with it as my dead Grandmother.