Lyon press conference?

[meher baba]

The criticism on here is extremely muted compared to what we got re GT after the 2006 EF.

GT has his faults but so has Ross. Two of the main criticisms frequently made of GT - ruination of the list and no plan B - can equally be applied to Ross.

I sense a certain stubbornness in the man: which is a great thing in that he has been very focused, but it has its down side. There was precious little sign last night (other than in Q3) of the oft-promised more attacking style. I don't think he does want to change, but he can't say so.

He's a great coach, but he isn't immune to criticism.

[Teflon]

does it matter ? we now have the cattle that simply won't make the grade regardless of who steers the ship, we had it, now we don't, reality is bitch.
Bring it on you rose colored sunglass wearing fellow saint fans.
Apart from some ordinary umpiring we never looked like it, next year could be worse.
We can still enjoy our football but with a little less expectation.

I thought we "looked like it" in the 3rd.
I also felt we had the play at the start but were innefective going fwd.

IMHO everyone talks about our fwd line but for me our poor ball into fwd 50 where we rely solely on 2 or 3 good players by foot lets us down all the time.

We also "looked like it" in the last, there were a few passages of free flowing play that was reminiscent of a couple of years ago where we moved the ball skillfully and quickly...it was just a couple of minutes, check the replay you'll see what I'm talking about.
Anyway I love fishing

I think we had our chances in the last for sure - first 7 inside 50?

Wouldnt say we brought the ball in cleanly though.....fumbles like an 18 yr in the back seat on first date stuff through the middle.

well done with the fishing...

[Saints43]

Remember, when he took the helm, he had Gehrig and Hammil on their last legs, and a whole side that was injury prone.

Three Grand Finals, and playing the sort of footy with the list we have is an amazing effort.

He had Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Goddard, Gilbert, Koschitzke, Fisher, Dal Santo, Milne. That's the young core. And there were some terrific players around them.

And he decided to fluff around the edges of the list with Birss and Polo types. He decided to have a list that was big bodied over and above skilled.

Hopefully Pelchan will assist in re-building the list to suit the way RL wants the team to play.

[barks4eva]

Anyway I love fishing

More like another episode of Brokeback Mountain but call it fishing if you must!

[joffaboy]

The criticism on here is extremely muted compared to what we got re GT after the 2006 EF.

Ross has got currency that Thomas never had.

Thomas had a better list and never even got us to a GF.

Ross got us to two and probably two bounces of the ball in both from a premiership.

Lyon is a far superior coach to Thomas, and from what i hear a far superior person.

[InkerSaint]

The criticism on here is extremely muted compared to what we got re GT after the 2006 EF.

GT has his faults but so has Ross. Two of the main criticisms frequently made of GT - ruination of the list and no plan B - can equally be applied to Ross.

I haven't seen anyone suggest the former apart from yourself.

I sense a strong concentration of methane on the planet you're posting from.

[spert]

Ah well, GT & Butters get the flick, new coach, new President and board, more promises of success, move to the outer suburbs, if only the bounce went this way, if only the bounce went that way in 2010, just a bunch of cooda been excuses and come 2011, no silverware to show for it... so much for that lot -NEXT..

[saintsRrising]

The bloke here talking about 'skill differentials' - is he the same one who has overseen the arrival and selection of Jones, Polo, Dempster, Eddy, Geary, McQualter, Peake, Clarke, Gram etc?

.

Gram? Before Lyon.

CJ. Lyon was appointed during trade week....so apart from taking Milne off the table (you know the guy that actually can kick goals) Lon in his first year was just in the main rubber stamping what Beveridge had in place.

In terms of kids drafted the St Kilda record in the last several years apart from last year has been by and large dreadful..


IF Lyon has one regret....it would be not insisting that Bevo was not retired earlier as Bevo's era of recruiting was characterised footballers who had poor skills. Players with good skills were rare...and some like Goddard had selected themselves.

YES Lyon has made strong use of recycled players. but faced with the rubbish kids that were being recruited by the drafting staff do you seriously blame him?

If Lyon has sat back with kids only the Saints would not have been making Grand Finals.

The team he had taken over was in decline. Yes it had some very good players...but most were injury prone. Faced with crap young talent Lyon boosted that with recycled players and then with outstanding coaching and an innovative gameplan turned us into a force.


AFL however keeps evolving, and unfortunately for the Saints and Lyon that evolving has in the last season seen good skills become more important than ever. So our main weakness has been further exposed.

Back on recruiting. A review of the players we took last year will note that skills were rated highly. Luck ? Coincidence?

NO...but a sign that Bevo no longer held sway, as well as firmer direction coming from the coaches as to what was required

Do we need a new coach? No we have an outstanding one

Do we need better recruiting, and in particular better recruiting of kids? boody oath!!!!!!!!!!. Though last years cop is looking the goods.


Opinions vary of course. But mine is that we been successful due to Lyon and not despite him. Indeed my view is without him we would have at best been barely in the 8.

[plugger66]

The bloke here talking about 'skill differentials' - is he the same one who has overseen the arrival and selection of Jones, Polo, Dempster, Eddy, Geary, McQualter, Peake, Clarke, Gram etc?

.

Gram? Before Lyon.

CJ. Lyon was appointed during trade week....so apart from taking Milne off the table (you know the guy that actually can kick goals) Lon in his first year was just in the main rubber stamping what Beveridge had in place.

In terms of kids drafted the St Kilda record in the last several years apart from last year has been by and large dreadful..


IF Lyon has one regret....it would be not insisting that Bevo was not retired earlier as Bevo's era of recruiting was characterised footballers who had poor skills. Players with good skills were rare...and some like Goddard had selected themselves.

YES Lyon has made strong use of recycled players. but faced with the rubbish kids that were being recruited by the drafting staff do you seriously blame him?

If Lyon has sat back with kids only the Saints would not have been making Grand Finals.

The team he had taken over was in decline. Yes it had some very good players...but most were injury prone. Faced with crap young talent Lyon boosted that with recycled players and then with outstanding coaching and an innovative gameplan turned us into a force.


AFL however keeps evolving, and unfortunately for the saints and Lyon that evolving has in the last season see good skills become more imporant than ever. So are main weakness has been further exposed.

Back on recruiting. A review of the players we took last year will note that skills were rated highly. Luck ? Coincidence?

NO...but a sign that Bevo no longer held sway, as well as firmer direction coming from the coaches as to what was required

Do we need a new coach? No we have an outstanding one

Do we need better recruiting, and in particular better recruiting of kids? boody oath!!!!!!!!!!. though last years cop is looking the goods.

You always say that about Bevo but he hasnt been in charge of recruiting for 4 years so he is hardly responsible for those last 4 years.

[saintsRrising]

You always say that about Bevo but he hasnt been in charge of recruiting for 4 years so he is hardly responsible for those last 4 years.

Can you point out where I said that Bevo was in charge of recruiting?

= no you cannot. Because I have not stated that. So your statement that I always say that about him is utter bulltish...


Trading etc has involved others such as GT, Lyon, Drain etc.

What I have said was that Bevo was the one making the call on the kids we drafted.

Back in the days when all clubs when went with gut feel, Bevo was competive.

As recruiting became more of a discipline...he and the Saints were left behind and coaches such as GT and RL suffered for it.

[plugger66]

You always say that about Bevo but he hasnt been in charge of recruiting for 4 years so he is hardly responsible for those last 4 years.

Can you point out where I said that Bevo was in charge of recruiting?

= no you cannot. Because I have not stated that. So you statement that I always say that about him is utter bulltish...


Trading etc has involved others such as GT, Lyon, Drain etc.

What I have said was that Bevo was the one making the call on the kids we drafted.

Back in the days when all clubs when we gut feel, Bevo was compettive.

As recruiting became more of a discipline...he and the Saints were left behind and coaches such as GT and RL suffered for it.

If he is making the calls then he is in charge. He hasnt made those calls for 4 years so i fail to see how you can blame him for the last 4 years recruiting.

[Johnny Member]

The team he had taken over was in decline. Yes it had some very good players...but most were injury prone. Faced with crap young talent Lyon boosted that with recycled players and then with outstanding coaching and an innovative gameplan turned us into a force.

I think it was in decline in a sense, but was always going to end up being an exceptional list based on the depth of really good young talent.

It was never in a 'free fall decline' where it was rooted due to severe neglect. It, in my view, had simply hit that patch where you lose good old players and just have to wait a year or so until kids from the Draft fill those gaps.

Lyon obviously didn't go down that path, and went with recycled player for a quicker fix. And clearly, it nearly worked. But obviously the trade off is that it appears now, the list might in that state of 'free fall decline due to severe neglect'!

AFL however keeps evolving, and unfortunately for the saints and Lyon that evolving has in the last season see good skills become more imporant than ever. So are main weakness has been further exposed.

I agree with this.

He coached to his idea really, really well. The only issue with Lyon's coaching over the past 2 years for mine, is that part of his idea is that poor skills and low scoring come with the territory. And it's poor skills and low scoring that cost us a premiership - possibly 2.
So although he was fantastic, I believe he's as much to blame for the losses as he is to be patted on the back for the getting us there in the first place.

And from the outside, it looks as though he's either been caught off guard with the evolvement of his own idea.

You've got to score now. He either can't address this due to the type of player he's recruited for his game plan, or he still doesn't believe that scoring is pivotal.

[saintsRrising]

He hasnt made those calls for 4 years so i fail to see how you can blame him for the last 4 years recruiting.

Might pay for to READ what I write.

Last year Bevo had no say...which is what I stated.

But if you don't think he was the guy that made the call of Howard, Armo etc you are seriously deluded.

Also where did 4 yeas come from? As I stated BOTH Gt and RL suffered from poor selection of kids.

Last years batch of kids is our first satisfactory (talents relative to where taken)drafting of kids in a long long time.

[Johnny Member]

You always say that about Bevo but he hasnt been in charge of recruiting for 4 years so he is hardly responsible for those last 4 years.

Can you point out where I said that Bevo was in charge of recruiting?

= no you cannot. Because I have not stated that. So your statement that I always say that about him is utter bulltish...


Trading etc has involved others such as GT, Lyon, Drain etc.

What I have said was that Bevo was the one making the call on the kids we drafted.

Back in the days when all clubs when went with gut feel, Bevo was competive.

As recruiting became more of a discipline...he and the Saints were left behind and coaches such as GT and RL suffered for it.

But is it the actual kids we've drafted, or the decision to fill the list with recycled players of limited ability that's costing us right now?

[plugger66]

He hasnt made those calls for 4 years so i fail to see how you can blame him for the last 4 years recruiting.

Might pay for to READ what I write.

Last year Bevo had no say...which is what I stated.

But if you don't think he was the guy that made the call of Howard, Armo etc you are seriously deluded.

Also where did 4 yeas come from? As I stated BOTH Gt and RL suffered from poor selection of kids.

Last years batch of kids is our first satisfactory (talents relative to where taken)drafting of kids in a long long time.

But you mentioned Bevo as if was in charge of recruiting up until last year. We havent recruited well for about 6 years. Only 2 of those were when bevo had the final say. Why not mention the other people who have had just as much to do with recruiting as bevo in the last few years.

And as you keep pointing out where did i even mention Armo or Howards name. Should we mention gems like Gwilt, Gilbert and Chips.

[saintsRrising]

But is it the actual kids we've drafted, or the decision to fill the list with recycled players of limited ability that's costing us right now?

One can argue is both.

My view is that because our drafted kids have been on the whole quite poor that Lyon has been overly reliant on the recycled players to improve the team.


However even with good kids I do believe that he Moneyball like was always going to seek value selections to fill gaps that we have had.

The club getting Pelchen is i believe an indication that the club knows it needs to do a lot better in player recruitment and management.

[InkerSaint]

But is it the actual kids we've drafted, or the decision to fill the list with recycled players of limited ability that's costing us right now?

It has to be the former, because if not for the latter we would be 3 years into a rebuild right now.

07 was a good year for us. McEvoy, 2nd round pick for Schneider and Dempster, Steven. 08 and 09 were disasters, shortly after which John Peake was moved sideways.

[saintsRrising]

But you mentioned Bevo as if was in charge of recruiting up until last year.

No I did not.

I have never stated that Bevo was involved in trades.

We havent recruited well for about 6 years. Only 2 of those were when bevo had the final say. Why not mention the other people who have had just as much to do with recruiting as bevo in the last few years.

And as you keep pointing out where did i even mention Armo or Howards name. Should we mention gems like Gwilt, Gilbert and Chips.

You have to look at the whole. The very very few exceptions that have worked out in that period do not excuse a period where our drafted kids have been by and large poor.

You are like a gambler at the races who after one long shot comes home, forgets about all his losses.


I will repeat...our drafting of kids up until last season has been poor for a long time.

[plugger66]

But you mentioned Bevo as if was in charge of recruiting up until last year.

No I did not. You seem unable to understand that Bevo was the one until the last two drafts that was selecting the kids.

Two years back our new recruiters has not been their long. Last year they had had a long period research what kids to take.

I have never stated that Bevo was involved in trades.

We havent recruited well for about 6 years. Only 2 of those were when bevo had the final say. Why not mention the other people who have had just as much to do with recruiting as bevo in the last few years.

And as you keep pointing out where did i even mention Armo or Howards name. Should we mention gems like Gwilt, Gilbert and Chips.

You have to look at the whole. The very very few exceptions that have worked out in that period do not excuse a period where our drafted kids have been by and large poor.

You are like a gambler at the races who after one long shot comes home, forgets about all his losses.


I will repeat...our drafting of kids up until last season has been poor for a long time.

Bevo's last real say was 2007. He got that pretty right with Ben and Jack. Had nothing to do with the final selection after that. It was Peake. Why not mention his name because that is where our real gap on players coming through is. I have no idea why you think it is only 2 years. can you explain your logic? Peake was there 3 years and that doesnt include this year so he had the final say from 2008 onwards.

[Saints43]

[Do we need a new coach? No we have an outstanding one

Opinions vary of course. But mine is that we been successful due to Lyon and not despite him. Indeed my view is without him we would have at best been barely in the 8.

Lyon has had two successful season from five attempts.

Under his watch Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn have all gone past us and won flags. The Eagles have rebuilt and finished above us. And there is a new crop in the bottom half of the eight and just outside the eight who will go past us in the next two to three seasons.

He is not an 'outstanding' coach. Unless I misunderstand the meaning of 'outstanding'.

[plugger66]

[Do we need a new coach? No we have an outstanding one

Opinions vary of course. But mine is that we been successful due to Lyon and not despite him. Indeed my view is without him we would have at best been barely in the 8.

Lyon has had two successful season from five attempts.

Under his watch Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn have all gone past us and won flags. The Eagles have rebuilt and finished above us. And there is a new crop in the bottom half of the eight and just outside the eight who will go past us in the next two to three seasons.

He is not an 'outstanding' coach. Unless I misunderstand the meaning of 'outstanding'.

Maybe you misunderstand how average our list is. Allan Jeans told one of my dads best mates about 6 months ago he rates RL as the best Saints coach ever because he had no idea how that side could play in 3 GF's. In his opinion it was a 5th to 8th side both those years.

[Saints43]

Maybe you misunderstand how average our list is.

It's his list!

We pay the same amount of money to our players that collingwood, hawthorn, geelong do.

RL started with a fantasic core of players coming into their peak years:
Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Goddard, Gilbert, Koschitzke, Fisher, Dal Santo, Milne.

He brought in the Birss, Polo types that make it the 'average' list it is today. That's his choice to play his gameplan.

RL is - by far - the best resourced coach ever to be employed by this club. No other coach has seen anything like the levels of investment he has had at his disposal.

[dcstkfc]

Maybe you misunderstand how average our list is.

It's his list!

We pay the same amount of money to our players that collingwood, hawthorn, geelong do.

RL started with a fantasic core of players coming into their peak years:
Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Goddard, Gilbert, Koschitzke, Fisher, Dal Santo, Milne.

He brought in the Birss, Polo types that make it the 'average' list it is today. That's his choice to play his gameplan.

RL is - by far - the best resourced coach ever to be employed by this club. No other coach has seen anything like the levels of investment he has had at his disposal.

Still nowhere near the resources at Geelong, Collingwood and West Coast.

[Teflon]

Maybe you misunderstand how average our list is.

It's his list!

We pay the same amount of money to our players that collingwood, hawthorn, geelong do.

RL started with a fantasic core of players coming into their peak years:
Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Montagna, Goddard, Gilbert, Koschitzke, Fisher, Dal Santo, Milne.

He brought in the Birss, Polo types that make it the 'average' list it is today. That's his choice to play his gameplan.

RL is - by far - the best resourced coach ever to be employed by this club. No other coach has seen anything like the levels of investment he has had at his disposal.

To be fair on resources Grant Thomas felt "training services" was overrated and injuries were a disgrace as a result.

Lyon does have more resources - he demanded Dave Misson come to the club.....should he be condemed or applauded for the new resources in this area?

I do agree that Lyon now needs to back rhetoric up with action - by that I mean there is no point bemoaning skill level when you bring in Dean Polo. Its skill we need and Id like to see us scour VFL ranks as a start (thats if we aint totally rebuilding) for an immediate injection of a player that could have an impact in 2012. Recruitment HAS to have skill level as a focus.

In potting Lyon for his role players we also need to assess that against what we gave up......Polo? Birrs? Gardiner? what did these guys really cost us?

Is it more an indictment on our recruiting that no one from the 08/09 crew can really break through to the senior side to push these guys out?

[dcstkfc]

Alistair Smith. Nick Heyne. Tom Lynch. Rhys Stanley. Paul Cahill. Tom Simpkin. Will Johnson. Nick Winmar. Jesse Smith. Adam Pattison. Andrew Lovett.

Total of about 32 games between these 10 taken at the end of 08 and 09.

No one is pushing up.